Research Triangle Park (RTP) & the Triangle Biotech Cluster

[DanRNC]

More crap. Instead of integrating it into the new master plan, they are going to plunk down a campus near RTP which will only create more traffic and suburban sprawl. I'm sure a new strip mall is also in the works.

[15895]

WakeTech in Morrisville makes plenty of sense. More people live in Cary, Morrisville, and Apex today (200,000) than lived in Raleigh in 1980 when the WakeTech campus near Fuquay-Varina was being expanded.

It's fine to be a proponent of downtown Raleigh, but the reality is that fewer than half of Wake County residents live in Raleigh -- and that percentage has been dropping consistently for 30 years now.

That's probably what downtown proponents of Raleigh are annoyed with. Fighting with Durham and the Parks, etc. Parks are great, but it seems like it's taking away from Raleigh as opposed to be a cherry on top (if you're a downtown proponent) (Despite living right down in Charlotte, Raleigh mine as well be located in Washington. So I may be wrong. That's just my interpretation. I've seen pictures of the new Museum in Raleigh and it made me curious of whats going on in Raleigh because that new Museum with a globe looks world class!!!)

On the flip side, it's a huge economic asset and I'm assuming these parks spurred beautiful developments and really helps the metro area as a whole.

Edited May 31, 2012 by AirNostrumMAD

[Jones_]

That's an interesting perspective. The spill over is nice indeed, maybe even preferable, to being the absolute center of all activity. I personally would not live downtown if it had 40,000 employees more and a stadium eating up 4 blocks etc etc. I like mid density and a neighborhood-esque downtown. The big-time crowd I imagine, would love it more like I described. That aside, I think the Wake Tech situation though is more a symptom of the County generally thumbing their nose at things like regional planning (beyond building more interstates) and posturing as if they are the source of all good things happening around here. Plop it down where ever they want and know that the State and municipalities will pick up the tab on roads, and in this case, police and fire. It's too bad they didn't say, get Triangle J COG to coordinate a stakeholder meeting and flesh out preferred sites and identify needed improvements and by whom, to accommodate something that I assume will be pretty big at build-out.

[DanRNC]

RTPs master plan was released today.

http://wraltechwire.com/new-plan-promises-breathtaking-rebirth-for-research-triangle-park/11756479/

http://www.wral.com/asset/business/2012/11/09/11755026/Concise_PUBLIC_Master_Plan.pdf

[DanRNC]

Tidbit. The area needs to continue to capitalize on this.

 

http://wraltechwire.com/reports-put-a-shine-on-job-creation-in-nc/12106634/

[orulz]

This is not the place to discuss the merits/drawbacks of food types, GMO or otherwise. This is for discussing development in RTP. If you wish to discuss food science etc, please open a topic in the Coffee House.

[Green_man]

From TBJ: 

 

Today, the foundation made it official, announcing a press conference Monday to “unveil a project that will be the centerpiece of the Research Triangle Park’s plans for an innovative future."

 

http://www.bizjournals.com/triangle/blog/2014/01/research-triangle-park-to-unveil-what.html

 

Any chance the announcement is that they will move 1/3 of the companies in RTP to downtown Durham, 1/3 to downtown Raleigh, and 1/3 to Centennial Campus?  Now that would be innovative.  Anything else is just a traffic generator and more sprawl development.

[DanRNC]

Probably it will be some type of "urban village" thing. At least Geolas is adamant on rail transit to the park.

[DCMetroRaleigh]

They are really hyping it as something HUGE.

[DPK]

Any chance the announcement is that they will move 1/3 of the companies in RTP to downtown Durham, 1/3 to downtown Raleigh, and 1/3 to Centennial Campus?  Now that would be innovative.  Anything else is just a traffic generator and more sprawl development.

 

 

Haha, that'd be great actually.  Then demo all the existing buildings and return it to parkland.

 

[RALNATIVE]

I seriously doubt that RTP will ever completely disappear. It has way too much global recognition. I can however see it morph into a more contemporary technology center for R&D.

[Euphorius]

It kind of sounds like this will be the anchor for Triangle Commons. Or maybe project ARCHIE is Triangle Commons in its entirety

[ctl]

RTF has announced purchase of property in the center of RTP with the intent of beginning high-density development there. 

 

http://www.heraldsun.com/news/x849280945/Research-Triangle-officials-announce-new-land-purchases

[Green_man]

The only benefit to this that I see is that it could potentially move along the commuter rail project, which in turn could push along the light rail / bus rapid transit discussion.

 

Having said that, I have serious doubts about this announcement.  Potential for 100,000 jobs?  What does this even mean?  In 20 years?  200 years?  Whatever, its obviously meant as a company recruiting announcement.  It appears they have nothing planned, but hoping the splash will attract some big fish.

 

Seems like a non story to me. 

[ctl]

Similar discussion at http://www.urbanplanet.org/forums/index.php/topic/46451-2035-triangle-regional-transit-vision-plan/page-19.

[Euphorius]

According to the N&O article, this is going to be Park Center. The new master plan for RTP shows Park Center and Kit Creek Center being the smaller, not quite as densly developed centers of the 3 new development areas. I can only imagine how large their dreams are for Triangle Commons given how much hype has already surrounded this smaller development center. http://www.newsobserver.com/2014/02/03/3588172/rtp-to-build-new-retail-residential.html

[Jones_]

The last sentence of the N&O article says a lot. The price GE paid originally $65 million down to $6.2 million paid by RTF says loud and clear that new blood has zero interest in RTP as it currently sits. I am not convinced that even 4 or 5 dense pockets fix that as the pockets will remain isolated from the true hearts of the area...the downtowns and urbanizing midtowns. 

[Euphorius]

I thought the same thing when I read how much GE let the land go for. RTF got an amazing deal on that land.

[DanRNC]

^Its called a tax write off. $65 million was pre-economic real estate bust when everything was overvalued substantially. Thats why I laugh at the supposed value of the Dix property. No one would ever pay that much, especially not the tightwads in NC. 

[orulz]

IMO The spot near RTP that's best situated for high density development is the Triangle Metro Center site, where NC54, Miami, Page, and Hopson roads come together. Some of the buildings that have gone in there lately are getting more and more urban organically. I'm disappointed that this isn't listed as a focus area in the RTP master plan, although I can see why: only the northeast quadrant of land is within the borders of RTP; the rest is private (Davis Park and some strip malls.) It would be a shame for private development to keep building that area denser and denser only to see RTP continue to turn its back on the rest of the world, leaving that land as inaccessible open space at the back of the Nortel campus.

[ctl]

I disagree with Jones133 about the attractiveness or unattractiveness of RTP. Nobody wanted to rent the buildings in question because they were poorly designed and constructed (I've been inside them), functionally obsolete (e.g. no longer in code compliance, poor conduits for networking), provided bad access to an often-congested NC 54, and (interestingly) not large enough. Fidelity passed them by and chose instead to take over one of the empty Nortel buildings and put 2200 people into it. Several other companies such as Netapp built new facilities instead, with 1500 headcount moving toward 2000. The idea that companies have abandoned RTP in favor of downtown Raleigh or downtown Durham is absurd.

 

General Electric made an incredibly bad investment. It sucks for them. 

 

RTP has gone through 10 difficult years, but it can be ascribed to many reasons. Lenovo moved out into new office space that's just outside the boundary of RTP. (In fact, many other companies have taken space just outside the boundary of the park.) Nortel, which at one point had 13,500 people in the area (including contractors and temps), left an enormous overhang on the market when it downsized repeatedly and eventually went bankrupt. Sony Ericsson closed and left two entire buildings empty (over 450,000 square feet). IBM has been trimming back as jobs move to India and China. 

Edited February 4, 2014 by ctl

[Jones_]

Well I don't claim to be an expert on RTP but you are quite frank about their being 10 bad years. I am assuming that the many things that those ten years are attributable to could be present through out the park. You make it sound just like just because Nortel, Sony Ericsson and IBM are pulling back on their own that this is not indicative of the the park not being viable. Fine. Could be. But I believe the viability of RTP is directly tied to the types of companies that need or want that environment. GE making an investment that lost 90% of its capital value seems to be a more than just some professional investors making a slight screw up. The aggressive moves to 'transform' RTP also seem to scream that those who are tasked with keeping it viable are experiencing first hand problems with doing just that. I doubt its just a fun hobby to make RTP into a new urban neighborhood because everyone else is doing it...... being one of the cool kids isn't in their job description I'm guessing. Mind you, I realize we haven't discussed what either of us means by "viable" but getting worried about that would be missing the forest for the trees...

Edited February 5, 2014 by Jones133

[ctl]

Nortel, SE///, and IBM aside, it's untrue that there is no recent growth in RTP. Read http://www.rtp.org/sites/default/files/2013_RTP_Directory_0.pdf and look for the companies that have moved into RTP proper since 2000.

 

The RTP reports don't include companies like Quintiles (about 2000 headcount near RTP), PPD (about 1500), Tekelec (about 600), or Lenovo (about 2000) because all of those just outside the boundary. Most of those jobs have been created in the last 20 years, and all the buildings have been erected since then. These are just examples; there are others. Or to look at it differently, just one development that's on the outside edge of RTP proper -- Perimeter Park in the Morrisville zip code -- has surpassed 2 million square feet of office space with 97% occupancy at last report, and the development is still growing (another 200,000 sq ft under construction). This land was raw not that long ago. 

 

Are there vacancies in the vicinity? Sure. Roughly 500,000 square feet of Nortel space inside or just outside RTP is still on the market.   

 

To put this in perspective, Red Hat took 350,000 sq ft for 600 heads in DTR. Citrix is building space for about the same number.

[DanRNC]

Syngenta, Biogen, and BASF have all had major expansions in the Park recently as well.

[Green_man]

I forget where I saw these numbers:  RTP employees 39,000.  Downtown Raleigh employees: 40,000.  Supposedly Park Place development (which is on land about the size of downtown Raleigh): 100,000 new employees.  That should give you a sense of how much they are reaching with this hype.  They want to recreate downtown Raleigh from scratch - except with more employees?  Why wouldn't companies that want an urban environment go to where there is an urban environment???