Research Triangle Park (RTP) & the Triangle Biotech Cluster

[ctl]

Not sure whether the 40K number for DTR is core downtown (i.e. Peace-Person-South-Boylan) or includes NCSU and other properties that arguably should be classified as just ITB. Whichever, a good chunk of the 40K are state employees, and that's a flat-to-declining headcount.

 

The 100K figure in RTP's announcement is sheer hype, a theoretical number not to be taken seriously.

 

Saying that RTP intends to recreate DTR (or the American Tobacco campus for that matter) is putting a spin on it that RTP didn't impart itself. High-density, yes; mixed-use, yes. Doesn't necessarily mean a new downtown. As to why companies might prefer it to DTR or American Tobacco, it's about many things... room to expand, room to have a horizontal footprint (important if you want solar on the roof), costs (no city taxes in RTP and horizontal construction is cheaper too), etc. Maybe it's not everyone's cup of tea, but it's a third alternative in what is otherwise a race between two contenders -- the two downtowns versus surburban/rural low-density office parks. 

[Green_man]

For reference:  100 acres in downtown is an area bounded by Blount, Morgan, Dawson, and Lenoir. 

 

RTP said they want a mixed-use center with retail, residential, and office.  Without recreating a crazy dense area, how else are you going to squeeze in 6 MILLION square feet of office space plus everything else in that space?  Oh, and I almost forgot, let's put in on the busiest highway in the area that is already near capacity at rush hour.

 

Ugh.  Well at least we can find comfort that their vision is completely unrealistic and won't actually happen.

[ncwebguy]

RTP wants this to be their version of Reston Town Center, with other towers nearby.

 

That would help redevelop the Nortel and chunks of the IBM/Forest Services land north of that area/north of 40.

 

There are two things the RTP folks are completely ignoring, which will slow the progress of their ambitions.

 

1. Bad connections to 40 and mass transit.

The old Nortel land would have been good -- visibility from 40, and between two exits (Miami and Davis).  After Davis, the next exit on 40 to this area is NC 55, miles away. NC 54/ NC 147 is not going to happen due to the proximity of I-40/ NC 147, similar to Alexander/40.

 

Reston Town Center is on a bus corridor into DC and will be close to a stop on  the light rail line to Dulles, which will be online in the next year or so.  RTP West?  Not so much.  Triangle Transit used to have their transfer station on that property years ago (damn I've been a way a while!)  but that is gone.  The rail line parallels Miami a half mile or so east of there.   They could have a people mover or something, but walking from west of Davis/54 to Miami/54 twice a day would likely be too much to take.

 

2. Retail follows rooftops, not cubicles.

 

The area is not well served in the immediate area -- I work in Perimiter Park and can only walk to the occasional food truck rally.  But there are few houses here due to RTP, the airport, etc.  The nearby housing is well served already by Southpoint to the west, Brier Creek to the north, and Park West/Preston/Southern Davis Drive to the east and south.

 

Reston Town Center is surrounded by miles of wealthy suburban housing and apartments in every direction.  A lot of Reston supports DC -- RTP does not have that going for it.

 

Perimeter Park still has some land near 540.  And there is a good chunk of land south of NetApp that for another couple of "campuses" if a company wants to go that route.

 

It is doable, but a lot of things need to fall into place.  It would have had a better chance at success if they had this vision 10 years ago, but the land owners were stuck in the 50s mindset until recently.

 

I fear this will end up like the old EPA building at 54 and Alexander - an empty lot waiting for "the right" tenant while the world moves on around it.

[ctl]

RTP hasn't released any details on how they will attain their vision. I'm certain they will not erect a 40-story office tower on spec! What we will probably see first is living and retail space. They have to be careful not to compete with existing RTP property owners and real estate agents who are still trying to clear the empty space on the market (Nortel, Sony Ericsson, etc). RTP also has to be careful not to kill the market for the remaining undeveloped parcels they own, some of which are virgin (near NetApp) but others teardowns (like the former EPA). Note that changes in restrictive covenants could allow some existing property owners to split their tracts and sell off space, too. If RTP ever does grow to 140K jobs, it would be a combination of the new development, plus traditional build-out of the raw land that RTP had in inventory last month, plus tract-splitting by the existing property owners. I can't imagine that 100K jobs would go onto 100 acres. Makes no sense.

 

As for commuter traffic into RTP, indeed I-40 is a problem. And let's be honest, I-540 from north Raleigh and north Wake will become a problem regardless of mass transit. But that's not where RTP is looking. There is a new and terribly underutilized NC 540, a/k/a Western Wake Expressway, a/k/a the toll road. Heard about the massive residential development under consideration for east Chatham County? These are not coincidences, folks. Rail transit could provide enough capacity to handle the incremental commuters into RTP from Durham and from north/central Wake, but I've got to think that RTP is looking at Chatham. 

Edited February 5, 2014 by ctl

[Jones_]

I find it all really interesting. The numbers provided are very appreciated (areas and jobs). Transportation and transit into the park seem like a huge limiting factor despite the live-work concept and the number of vehicle trips less per employee it can provide. Instead of these hard to pull off hubs of densification is it even conceivable that moderate change of use could take place along any of the road frontages through the Park? Like I don't know, putting in a mixed apartment/retail setup at the corner of Davis and Corwallis and running some sidewalks down to RTI? Does RTF have the power just pay off existing companies for some of their land...sort of an eminent domain? The concepts being discussed seem to be largely about draw-a-box-around-it stuff...

[ctl]

RTF does not have power of eminent domain, although they do have right of first refusal when a property owner in the park wishes to sell. I don't think RTF has itself financed any purchase of park land or entered into significant long-term leases of properties in the park. That may be about to change.

[DanRNC]

This appeared in Forbes. Will be interesting to see what the next 10 years of RTP looks like. While I don't foresee 100K more jobs anytime soon I do think you will see massive change to the landscape of the Park and increased investment. Either way more competition in the Triangle will keep everyone on their toes. Does UNC scrap Carolina North and send commercialization operations out to RTP? Questions to consider.

 

http://www.forbes.com/sites/davidkroll/2014/02/04/7-reasons-its-finally-time-to-live-in-research-triangle-park/

[ctl]

Interesting article about why the vicinity of RTP was so sparsely populated prior to the park's inception.

 

http://www.ourstate.com/soil/

Edited March 21, 2014 by ctl

[Jones_]

Interesting article about why the vicinity of RTP was so sparsely populated prior to the park's inception.

 

http://www.ourstate.com/soil/

The Triassic Basin is of course also where the shale gas would be extracted from. You can actually see it fairly well when driving east on 40 and you crest that hill at the Orange County Durham County line...that is the start of the descent into it. A little less obvious on the opposite side, but things like all the quartz throughout Umstead Park indicate the eastern fracture zone...the edge of the basin essentially. 

[DCMetroRaleigh]

Cisco will add 550 jobs in the next four years as it expands its campus at Research Triangle Park, under an agreement formalized Friday.

Read more at http://wraltechwire.com/cisco-adding-jobs-expanding-rtp-campus/13706742/#QhkATTbTRKuR31fF.99

[DanRNC]

Little blips coming out.

 

http://www.bizjournals.com/triangle/blog/techflash/2014/10/rtp-partners-with-frontier-communications-to.html

[DanRNC]

The big plan for Park Center? Drumroll....co-working space. 

[KJHburg]

The Park Center is finally starting.

Couple of stories about it.

https://www.bizjournals.com/triangle/news/2018/10/18/retail-developer-to-start-long-awaited-park-center.html?ana=e_ae_set1&s=article_du&ed=2018-10-18&u=oAaDx%2B74FoP4qOJ%2By4AU6dhJPpc&t=1539892142&j=84498561

another story about it

https://www.wraltechwire.com/2018/10/18/research-triangle-foundation-picks-developer-to-build-town-center/?ssid=112928427

[ctl]

About time. Forest will recolonize some of that property if they don't get on with it.

[po-boy]

Amazing how long this has taken to get off the ground, but hopefully it will actually happen in a relatively short time now.  Construction of the retail portion is supposed to be complete by the end of 2020, don't think I have seen a time frame for the complete development. I hope this can breathe some life into RTP which is a great asset to the region but has not kept up with the times.

[KJHburg]

New dining center coming to heart of the RTP called the Boxyard made up of shipping containers.  

https://www.wraltechwire.com/2019/03/07/boxyard-rtp-to-bring-dining-entertainment-to-heart-of-research-triangle-park/?utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=newsletter&utm_source=wral

[ctl]

Might work. You've got tens of thousands of workers nearby who eat lunch. They often tire of company cafeterias and the too-familar fast-food joints on the periphery of RTP. 

[KJHburg]

Raleigh Durham area named one of the top 5 biosciences clusters.

https://www.wraltechwire.com/2019/03/11/report-research-triangle-is-one-of-top-5-life-science-hubs-across-us/?utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=newsletter&utm_source=wral

[KJHburg]

Alexandria opens it first phase of AgTech center in RTP.  100% preleased for its 175,000 sq ft. 

https://www.wraltechwire.com/2019/04/01/alexandria-opens-agtech-center-in-rtp-2nd-phase-in-development/

[rancenc]

Remake of the old Nortel site is in the works!

https://www.wraltechwire.com/2019/11/22/developers-to-convert-95-acre-former-nortel-site-into-rtp-office-campus/

[rancenc]

Recent article from the New York Times concerning suburban offices parts with the spotlight on Research Triangle Park.

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/11/19/business/suburban-office-park-comeback.html

 

[KJHburg]

I know this has been a long time coming and many are cynical but I do think the RTP high rises will rise soon.  KDC from Dallas does not play around they developed high rise campuses for State Farm in Atlanta and Dallas in mixed used environments and plenty of high rises in Texas.   The new Hub RTP.  Up to 25 stories tall!  Read all about it and it is big. 

https://www.newsobserver.com/news/business/article239716623.html

https://hub.rtp.org/#

https://www.bizjournals.com/triangle/news/2020/01/28/developer-chosen-for-rtp-project-with-high-rises-1.html?iana=hpmvp_trig_news_headline

https://kdc.com/

 

[RALNATIVE]

1 hour ago, KJHburg said:

I know this has been a long time coming and many are cynical but I do think the RTP high rises will rise soon.  KDC from Dallas does not play around they developed high rise campuses for State Farm in Atlanta and Dallas in mixed used environments and plenty of high rises in Texas.   The new Hub RTP.  Up to 25 stories tall!  Read all about it and it is big. 

https://www.newsobserver.com/news/business/article239716623.html

https://hub.rtp.org/#

https://www.bizjournals.com/triangle/news/2020/01/28/developer-chosen-for-rtp-project-with-high-rises-1.html?iana=hpmvp_trig_news_headline

https://kdc.com/

 

I like it, but whatever they build, I hope it is near Interstate I-40 and I-540.

Having tall, impressive buildings along interstates does a lot to solidify the image of an area as an economic power.

[orulz]

They missed the boat on the location by about 3/4 mile. Put this 3/4 mile further east, and it would have access to the commuter rail line. Offices within a short walk of commuter rail stations can often command a premium. But as proposed, it's frustratingly *almost* close enough, but not quite. A 15 minute walk at the destination end of a transit commute is not going to appeal to very many people, so few will do it.

[Seaboard Fellow]

23 minutes ago, orulz said:

They missed the boat on the location by about 3/4 mile. Put this 3/4 mile further east, and it would have access to the commuter rail line. Offices within a short walk of commuter rail stations can often command a premium. But as proposed, it's frustratingly *almost* close enough, but not quite. A 15 minute walk at the destination end of a transit commute is not going to appeal to very many people, so few will do it.

I agree no one will be willing to make this walk, hopefully a free shuttle is offered if commuter rail ever materializes. This proposal reminds me a lot of the defunct Triangle Metro Center project minus the rail component. If this project is wildly successful as I suspect it will be, there’s a good chance additional dense developments will pop up around wherever the future station ends up.