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I don't really know where to post this so I am putting it here. I just finished reading the GRBJ article on Jack Buchanan/BBV and the City Commissioners deciding to end discucssions with BBV re the parking structure on North Monroe. On top of that I just read the alleged letter (unsigned mind you) posted on this blog from the former Mayor, John Logie. Now, mind you, there may be some truth to the financial aspect of the deal and perhpas it could be structured better . . . Poor Jack, he just can't catch a break in this town . . . maybe if his last name was DeVos or VanAndel he could get the city to grant him a Brownfield and no one would think a thing of it . . .I am pretty sure that the former furniture store on a fully developed downtown area across from the Amway Grand Plaza qualified as a Brownfield Zone . . ????????? WHAT???? It is not what you know or how good of a development idea you have, it is who you know, who your name is and how much Logie likes you if you want to do a deal w/ the city. Why is Logie intefering? What did Buchanan do to him that makes him still so mad??? Perhaps Buchanan should try and do a deal that does not involve any assistance from City Hall . . . . Good luck in the future Buchanan . . maybe you are not "paying off" the right people . . .perhpas DeVos could use some money in his run for gov! wink wink

I

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I don't really know where to post this so I am putting it here. I just finished reading the GRBJ article on Jack Buchanan/BBV and the City Commissioners deciding to end discucssions with BBV re the parking structure on North Monroe. On top of that I just read the alleged letter (unsigned mind you) posted on this blog from the former Mayor, John Logie. Now, mind you, there may be some truth to the financial aspect of the deal and perhpas it could be structured better . . . Poor Jack, he just can't catch a break in this town . . . maybe if his last name was DeVos or VanAndel he could get the city to grant him a Brownfield and no one would think a thing of it . . .I am pretty sure that the former furniture store on a fully developed downtown area across from the Amway Grand Plaza qualified as a Brownfield Zone . . ????????? WHAT???? It is not what you know or how good of a development idea you have, it is who you know, who your name is and how much Logie likes you if you want to do a deal w/ the city. Why is Logie intefering? What did Buchanan do to him that makes him still so mad??? Perhaps Buchanan should try and do a deal that does not involve any assistance from City Hall . . . . Good luck in the future Buchanan . . maybe you are not "paying off" the right people . . .perhpas DeVos could use some money in his run for gov! wink wink

I

I moved your post here to the original discussion sunlover38, but I think most of us agreed the topic has been dragged out long enough. Upward and onward!

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But you are right Sunlover. I have to say I have never been so proud of our cities growth, but never so ashamed of the B.S. that is going on around town these days.

So sorry . . .just having read the article today and not having read through all the posts, I apologize for being redundant . . . . . :D
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maybe if his last name was DeVos or VanAndel he could get the city to grant him a Brownfield and no one would think a thing of it

They have the name, the history, and the money to get these perks. Is it fair - no. However, Buchanen has not given the town billions upon billions.

Yes, being rich has its perks. Including the fact that it is assumed that you are not trying to screw the city at every turn. Furthermore, their project tend to be much more well planned and have a higher chance of success. To the city, success mean reclaiming any investment.

edit DeVos and VanAndel have never put the city at risk with their developments. They do get tax breaks but they have done more than their fair share to prove that they are worth their word.

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DeVos and VanAndel have never put the city at risk with their developments.

I respectfully disagree. The risk comes in opportunity loss and the severe chilling effect any concentration of power can have on any City in terms of pushing new ideas from the outside to other markets.

A friend who specializes in traveling around the country consulting on large projects of all types had this comment after studying our market for about two months:

"Grand Rapids is amazing -- most cities have no money, but a lot of ideas. You guys seem to have all the money in the world, but no new ideas."

Too harsh? Probably, but still an interesting objective reality check from someone with absolutely no ax to grind and the perspective of having studied hundreds of multiple markets of comparable size.

What happens when the big names are gone? CS Mott carried Flint for a long time. Not anymore. Gilmores, Parfets and Upjohns carried Kalamazoo as well, but now they are facing tough questions.

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"Grand Rapids is amazing -- most cities have no money, but a lot of ideas. You guys seem to have all the money in the world, but no new ideas."

^Care to have your friend chime in here with some other interesting ideas? That quote hits the money.

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That is less the fault of DeVos and VanAndel than it is of the general Conservative nature of this area. Yes, this area is Conservative, in business, politics, development, etc... However, it is hard to argue that it does not work - it is working very well.

Also, let me know where these two have prevented someone else from changing anything or proposing anything. Look at Grooters, when everyone told him he could not do it, he did. edit Attacking the character of other forumers is not allowed.

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Hey, as a parent I'm deeply grateful for the $200 million DeVos children's hospital.

Less so for the RDV/Christman medical mall, new Alticor hotel and long-touted but glacially slow Cherry Steet revitalization. Let's not mistake motion for progress -- where are are new buildings and new tenants from outside the area? A grocery store run by Rockford doesn't count.

If you consider other communities generally labeled (fairly or not) "conservative" I think it would undermine your argment that a conservative philosophy must limit growth.

Salt Lake City is reguarly ranked among the top cities for entrepeneurs. Salt Lake and Provo, Utah (!!) have been ranked among the most economically productive in the country. Are we more conservative than Utah?

If we use conservatism as a crutch or excuse (or start apologizing for it!) we are back to square one, or worse.

The best, hottest idea we have now seems to be the MSU Medical School, despite the fact that it was ranked like 120th in funding out of 140 med schools in the nation, and doesn't project to be able to pay for itself by even the most optimistic measures.

As for trickle-down benefits, given the fact that most biotechs lose money for the first five years, employ a handful of people at a time and rely on VC money, it seems a most speculative bet requiring at least a hundred million in local investment over the next five years. I'd rather buy Pfizer stock.

Compare that idea with something like the Kalamazoo Promise, also a substantial local financial commitment, but one that is having an immediate impact on that community, its vibrancy and future. It was a bold new idea and the kind of thing that we should push for here at home instead of weird MSU boosterism.

As for projects that have been chased away, I know of several -- some involving major downtown acreage -- that never made the papers and didn't involve BBV. Perhaps other posters do as well. To start detailing those, however, is to get too bogged down in the past.

The remaing question for me on this thread: who will have the opportunity to do something new and different in the future? We have enough Second Story historic rehabs, enough little Moch/JadePig/JA squat condo projects on the drawing board -- very nice, but let's think a little bigger.

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Salt Lake City is reguarly ranked among the top cities for entrepeneurs. Salt Lake and Provo, Utah (!!) have been ranked among the most economically productive in the country. Are we more conservative than Utah?

Interesting. Up to four years ago GR was also one of the economic high flyers - and technically it really never fell that far. Simply being in Michigan has hurt us more than the economic facts have. Not to mention GR is almost always considered to be an entrprenureal hot spot and has been since the early 80s - hence the multitudes of small and medium private companies here and the lack of large public entities. There is no better sign of local ownership and entrepreureal spirit than that.

If you consider other communities generally labeled (fairly or not) "conservative" I think it would undermine your argment that a conservative philosophy must limit growth.

Not at all, it is just a more controlled growth. Like I said, GR is obviously doing something right. Sometimes it is smarter to spend the time and stand back for a moment before making the jump ahead. This philosophy is what drives long term vision and scope. Simply jumping in typically leads to short term benefits at the expense of long term gains.

Turtle and the hair - all I have to say.

The best, hottest idea we have now seems to be the MSU Medical School, despite the fact that it was ranked like 120th in funding out of 140 med schools in the nation, and doesn't project to be able to pay for itself by even the most optimistic measures.

Have you ever considered the fact that this may be the case because the lack of affiliation with a major hospital. It is clearly a major factor. Spectrum is top 30 in almost every field that they offer, top 20 in many, and top 10 in a few. It can stand with the best in the nation and offers the resources that a medial school needs to thrive. MSU medical school will definitely improve its rank when attached to Spectrum and the VAI (the second or third most well funded research institute in the US).

Bringing an existing school here is always easier than starting from scratch. This is pretty much the only option. In my opinion, this is a smart move and once again a long term play.

Compare that idea with something like the Kalamazoo Promise, also a substantial local financial commitment, but one that is having an immediate impact on that community, its vibrancy and future. It was a bold new idea and the kind of thing that we should push for here at home instead of weird MSU boosterism.

Won't argue that. Kzoo definitely got something special. However, I would not be surpirsed to see somthing similar pop up around here soon. There are 100+ regular donors in the area with enough money to pull something like that off without much of a problem.

As for projects that have been chased away, I know of several -- some involving major downtown acreage -- that never made the papers and didn't involve BBV. Perhaps other posters do as well. To start detailing those, however, is to get too bogged down in the past.

I too hear of most of these. I know a few commissioners and keep tabs on most of the happenings. This kind of thing happens everywhere. Most projects from the day of intent fail - somewhere are 60% or more. Development is a difficult game and missing can cost a lot.

The remaing question for me on this thread: who will have the opportunity to do something new and different in the future? We have enough Second Story historic rehabs, enough little Moch/JadePig/JA squat condo projects on the drawing board -- very nice, but let's think a little bigger.

It is all about reaching critcal mass. It would be stupid to build new if you have hundreds of empty buildings. The core is quickly losing surface space and will be forces to grow up. However, the very nature of this town guarantees that we will not have a high flying commercial center. This is an economically mixed region not a service sector giant.

No one is going to build up until it is necessary. That is a simple economic reality.

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Rather than continue to abuse the urbanplanet servers with my long (and now way off-topic) posts, just a few things. We might move this discussion to the downtown development thread.

-- Spectrum has been publicly guarded about MSU. That may change, but I wouldn't expect them to make their new focus driving quality improvements and new funding at the MSU Medical School. Spectrum and St. Mary's both seem to have enough to do (see other threads).

-- While an impressive and important resource filled with great minds, I recall reading VAI has generated less than $35 million pr something in grants during its entire operating life thus far. I don't know what ranking you may be referring to, but I can't believe it is based on funding dollars from outside sources. Money from DVA personally, perhaps, and that's great, but not indicative of it's progress as an institution.

-- The question regarding the MSU medical school isn't IF we can spend the money, but if we SHOULD as opposed to something else with a more tangible benefit. Why do we want this? No one has really done a good job of answering this with anything beyond fluffy cheerleading and fuzzy projections.

-- There's no question we have enough money to do a "Grand Rapids Promise" several times over, and could still. I hope we do. The buring question is why we can't mate those resources with energy and ideas of equal strength.

-- I'm not referring to projects that die a natural death. That's part of real estate -- don't count on anything until the doors open and the lights are on. I'm referring to projects that were pushed away.

-- We have empty commerical space downtown because we don't offer any buildings with true class-A amenities in a large enough floorplate with enough covered parking (ah - found the long-lost thread). That's why you see large tenants moving into new construction outside the city.

I agree with you that one of our community's strengths is that is isn't reckless in most of its decisions. That caution just needs to be tempered with vision and passion once in a while. Thanks for the debate -- a good discussion on important topics.

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If memory serves me, I believe 201test that city leaders, maybe 10 years ago or so, were going through a checklist of institutions that other up-and-coming Metro areas had, which GR did not. One of them was a law school. There was some vicious scuffling between schools, and lo and behold WMU - Cooley Law School joint venture was born. The other missing piece was a medical school. Hence, the MSU move was looked at.

You are right though that there has been a lack of outside developers successfully launching anything downtown. It will be interesting to see how 240 Ionia and the proposed hotel on Ionia do. Both projects are backed by relatively new faces in town (as far as I know). When we start seeing real proposals being put forth and approved from Florida, New York, or Chicago developers, then we'll know things have genuinely changed.

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If memory serves me, I believe 201test that city leaders, maybe 10 years ago or so, were going through a checklist of institutions that other up-and-coming Metro areas had, which GR did not. One of them was a law school. There was some viciuos scuffling between schools, and lo and behold WMU - Cooley Law School joint venture was born. The other missing piece was a medical school. Hence, the MSU move was looked at.

Great reminder and even better analogy!! -- Cooley (despite its BAR Association PR problems) has been a solid addition to that section of downtown. But it by no means is or should be expected to be an economic engine. If similar proportionate expectations (and investment) could be allocated to the MSU project, I think we would all be better served.

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I agree with you that one of our community's strengths is that is isn't reckless in most of its decisions. That caution just needs to be tempered with vision and passion once in a while. Thanks for the debate -- a good discussion on important topics.
No problem. I would rather not drag this on and on. I guess we can agree to disagree but I think we both have the best interests of the area in mind. Some common ground at least.

You are right though that there has been a lack of outside developers successfully launching anything downtown. It will be interesting to see how 240 Ionia and the proposed hotel on Ionia do. Both projects are backed by relatively new faces in town (as far as I know). When we start seeing real proposals being put forth and approved from Florida, New York, or Chicago developers, then we'll know things have genuinely changed.

Not to mention the RSC project. Headed by a Chicago firm. It seems as of late that there has been quite a bit of interest in the GR area coming from Chicago developers. Maybe these guys can light a fire under the feet of the small time locals - if not, I am sure that they will eventually eat them for lunch.

Time to kill of be killed in the world of GR development because I have a feeling the big boys are coming to town. This area offers too much (GR and the lakeshore) for them to miss out for much longer. In 20 years or so I fully expect the region to rival say Milwaukee - population wise it should have passed it by then, development just needs to catch up. Whatever the case, there have been many high profile projects in this town over the last decade or so and I think that some of the real players are beginning to take notice.

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Not to quibble on the details, but I've done some on-line searches for RSC & Associates and they don't come up very much. They've done a few developments in Chicago and have gone in on some similar proposals in Madison, but not much. Hopefully that project will get launched soon.

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Yah, the website SUK's and these are some of the hits I get on google. Not bad, but doesn't seem like a major player:

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&lr=&q=r...ent&btnG=Search

A lot of RSC's stuff looks pretty recent, including this proposed project in Detroit:

http://64.233.167.104/search?q=cache:PAC21...velopment&hl=en

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