Burnside Park

[Cotuit]

So where are these mounds of garbage that you speak of!? Besides garbage day!? If your talking about Federal Hill then can I assume your mentioning garbage collection day? I don't see them downcity like I've seen them in midtown Manhatten and elsewhere. I've never seen piles of garbage in Toronto like I've seen in NY. And of course there are homeless people downcity, but like in NY!???????? I don't think so.

Seriously, you need to go back to New York, you don't know what you are talking about. The sidewalks and streets in Manhattan are spotless, Providence is a sh*thole in comparison. And again, the crazy people... I don't know where you are getting this from, Kennedy Plaza is the capital of crazy people, there's nothing in New York like it.

[runawayjim]

Seriously, you need to go back to New York, you don't know what you are talking about. The sidewalks and streets in Manhattan are spotless, Providence is a sh*thole in comparison. And again, the crazy people... I don't know where you are getting this from, Kennedy Plaza is the capital of crazy people, there's nothing in New York like it.

he might be talking about the garbage put out late at night on certain nights. but during the day, it's spotless. i've rarely even seen the amount of litter we have here in new york.

i agree... there's nothing in manhattan compared to what i've seen here. i spent 20 min at kennedy plaza once with my girlfriend waiting for a greyhound bus... i've never seen anything like that at any bus or train station in new york. i couldn't believe the amount of crazy people... (crazy people is such a nice way of putting it)

there's a difference between seeing homeless people on the street sitting down looking for change (common in new york) and having people follow you for 4 blocks trying to get money out of you (never had this happen in new york). i don't mind the homeless sitting there minding their own business... but the ones that bother you for 4 blocks when you're just trying to get to a bar... that's annoying.

[Frankie811]

The sidewalks and streets in Manhattan are spotless, Providence is a sh*thole in comparison. And again, the crazy people... I don't know where you are getting this from, Kennedy Plaza is the capital of crazy people, there's nothing in New York like it.

I can't ever recall being in a Providence restuarant and having an emotionally disturbed person screaming out loud that he was hungry and needed something to eat, like I experienced in NY. I can't ever recall pulling into an empty parking lot downcity and watching two guys have anal sex like I did in NY. I'm in Kennedy Plaza every day but I've yet seen anyone urinate or deficate in public like I've seen in NY. In NY they have no idea what to do what these people so they just let them room the streets at will. Yeah, I'll just bet Providence is worst than some of the neighborhoods in NY. But you really should consider being the moderator of the NYC forum, even though nobody really posts anything there! It's amazing that a sh*thole city like Providence gets so much more attention that a fabulous city like NY.

[Cotuit]

Property owners in New York City face stiff penalties for not keeping their property clean. Shopkeepers go so far as to clean the sidewalks with soap and water and have to be ordered not to do so during water emergencies in the summer. If I ever saw a shopkeeper in Providence cleaning their sidewalk with soap and water I'd faint dead away. Downcity is much better since the DID, but Atwells Avenue is an embarrasement of filth day in and day out. I really don't see why it continues to attract visitors from outside the region. And I can walk past the same puddles of puke and broken bottles throughout the city for weeks on end without it being cleaned up. You would never see that in New York.

I've been in the Dunkin Donuts on Dorrance and literally had 3 different people ask me for money inside the Dunkin Donuts, this never happened to me in New York (or Boston).

[CtownMikey]

so what does providence need?? more police officers to get rid of homeless people and their poop?

is it a money, issue or another issue?

and if atwells is so bad, why isnt a DID made for that section specifically?

these seem like no brainers.

Maybe city officials arent in touch with the reality of this city like you everyday residents are.

Cotuit for mayer anybody!?

[Cotuit]

I can't ever recall being in a Providence restuarant and having an emotionally disturbed person screaming out loud that he was hungry and needed something to eat, like I experienced in NY. I can't ever recall pulling into an empty parking lot downcity and watching two guys have anal sex like I did in NY. I'm in Kennedy Plaza every day but I've yet seen anyone urinate or deficate in public like I've seen in NY. In NY they have no idea what to do what these people so they just let them room the streets at will. Yeah, I'll just bet Providence is worst than some of the neighborhoods in NY. But you really should consider being the moderator of the NYC forum, even though nobody really posts anything there! It's amazing that a sh*thole city like Providence gets so much more attention that a fabulous city like NY.

In a city of 8 million people you're bound to see all sorts of things. But what you describe is far from the norm in New York. I can take you around Federal Hill and show you where everyone relieves themselves, it's right outside my apartment thank you very much. You seriously don't know where to find men having anal sex in public in Providence, try the steps of the Arcade at around 9:30pm. Try Pine Street behind Johnson & Wales where a faculty member was recently greeted at her car by a homeless man tossing a load on her cars bumper. Try being a college girl on the East Side and tell me you never see anyone having sex or masturbating in public in Providence, it happens every day of the week.

Sure there's homeless people in New York, but there are some crazy ass drugged up nutjobs wondering the streets of Providence, and not just in Kennedy Plaza.

I'll just bet Providence is worst than some of the neighborhoods in NY.

Now you want to talk neighbourhoods, before it was Manhattan. Sure we can compare Downtown Providence to Jamaica, Queens or Flushing, Queens. The comparisons would be pretty apt.

I am the moderator of the New York section, and no one posts there because New York has numerous other forums devoted to it across the internet.

[Cotuit]

and if atwells is so bad, why isnt a DID made for that section specifically?

They shouldn't need a DID, the shopkeepers just need to buy some f*cking brooms, it's not really that hard. And if they don't buy brooms then they get fined, and if they still don't buy brooms, they get foreclosed on.

[runawayjim]

They shouldn't need a DID, the shopkeepers just need to buy some f*cking brooms, it's not really that hard. And if they don't buy brooms then they get fined, and if they still don't buy brooms, they get foreclosed on.

excuse me for being ignorant, but what's a DID?

[Cotuit]

Downtown Improvement District. If there were one on Federal Hill, it would be a BID, Business Improvement District. The DID is those people in yellow jackets Downcity.

[Garris]

I'm waaay late to this exploding thread, but some thoughts:

On NYC:

The old stereotype of a dirty, grimy city is just that. An old stereotype. Manhattan is pristine and, frankly, even many areas of the Bronx now have less garbage and grime than local places like, oh, say, Smith Hill. It really shows how far NYC has come. I interviewed at Columbia-Prebyterian Hospital (in Washington Heights) about 2-3 years ago for the training I'm now doing in Providence, and I was shocked at how nice and clean it was. 8 years before, it was garbage strewn, dirty, and neglected. It looked like Mogadishu. Now, just any other Manhattan neighborhood. Amazing...

On comparing Providence to NYC:

Possible in only the most abstract terms. Maybe comparing certain ideas, trends, or features is possible. Chicago and LA are probably the only two comparable US cities in overall scope, and barely at that. After those two, you're probably talking comparing it to world cities like London, Tokyo, Taipai, etc...

On similar cities to Providence outside New England:

I think there are several. My suggestions:

- Philadelphia: Very similar to Prov, just much, much bigger. Compact, colonial downtown with great architecture and narrow streets. They have ringing neighborhoods of strong character. Like Providence, a big college town. While affluent, Philly too has areas of serious poverty. They too are experiencing a big, new downtown condo boom.

- St Paul, MN: Taken in isolation from nearby Minneapolis, it has a very similar feel. Some streets, if you squint, you could think you're on Weybosset or the Jewelry District. It's a capitol city with a great, old retail downtown that saw serious decline and now is in serious rebound, much of it residential and cultural. It too is bigger than Providence.

- Madison, WI: The closest comparison in my opinion. The city is a bit bigger and more affluent than Prov's, the metro slightly smaller and less affluent than Prov's. It's a capitol city with a very, very similar feel walking around. In fact, the first time I was there, I thought to myself, "Wow, this is the Mid-West's Providence." From the Capitol, to the university life, to the near 1:1 correlation of streets and neighborhoods (ex. State St = Thayer St, Monona Terrace=Waterplace), to the downtown condo boom, it's very similar. The biggest difference is the street pattern (wide mid-western streets) and the lack of defining skyscrapers (no building can be taller than the capitol). My photos of Madison are here: http://members.cox.net/garrisphotography/G...st.html#Madison

Those are the most obvious ones that pop to mind for me...

- Garris

[eltron]

What cities outside of New England is PVD comparable to?

Wilmington, Delaware.

Perfect comparison, if you ask me, or at least the closest I've come up with.

and farewell unfrozen caveman Johnny D, I'll miss you, but can't wait to see piss-poor arm at The Toilet in year 3 of that deal!

[TheBostonian]

Wilmington, Delaware.

Perfect comparison, if you ask me, or at least the closest I've come up with.

and farewell unfrozen caveman Johnny D, I'll miss you, but can't wait to see piss-poor arm at The Toilet in year 3 of that deal!

Interesting. Like Providence it is a BosWash city not too far from other cities and very close to one big city. It is also the largest city of a very geographically small state. Though it is more of a banking center and is less dense (2,962.4/mi

[eltron]

Interesting. Like Providence it is a BosWash city not too far from other cities and very close to one big city. It is also the largest city of a very geographically small state. Though it is more of a banking center and is less dense (2,962.4/mi

[Garris]

Duluth, MN?

LaCrosse, WI?

I'm extremely familiar with both of these cities...

Duluth you could make more of an argument for, but it's much smaller, very isolated, and also quite depressed. While they're rejouvenated their waterfront, there isn't much going on downtown. There are several colleges there, but they're outside of the downtown proper. Duluth is probably more similar to a Fall River or Pawtucket in size and feel.

Definitely not LaCrosse... It's essentially a big river town, with nothing in the way of arts, culture, attractions, big business, etc. It's quite depressed, and likely will be for quite some time. It's also very isolated. It's anchored by some regional level colleges and hospitals, and that's about all. I wouldn't even compare LaCrosse to Duluth.

Rochester, NY might be a decent comparison. I haven't been there enough to say 100%... I recall it being far less dense and more suburban than Providence. It felt more like a Mid-Western city to me than a Northeastern city...

- Garris

[Jerry2]

What is the big deal? Who cares? NY is NY. There is no city in the WORLD that is like it. As far as a$$holes, we have enough of them here to worry about any other place. Agree w/ Basachs.? The only thing I've encountered different with NATIVE New Yorkers is this superiority complex that many suffer from, and the best way to shut them up is ignoring them. And as far as this city being dirty, it is. The fines are a great idea. Years ago they used to give citations to property owners for unkempt properties.( even peeling paint ) I think you will see some changes take place in the future, but don't expect it too soon. Providence is just now starting to reshape the bad policies that were in place for years. (re: zoning, kick-back scandals, city employees,etc) These things need to be repaired first before they enact laws fining people for dirty storefronts.

[PVDJack]

Sure there's homeless people in New York, but there are some crazy ass drugged up nutjobs wondering the streets of Providence, and not just in Kennedy Plaza.

Reading this thread and thinking back to others, there seems to be a widely-held belief that Providence suffers from an unusually high per capita rate of mentally ill and/or aggressive individuals.

I'd be interested to hear what people think is the reason(s) for this situation, and what policies should be adopted to address it.

PVDJack

[eltron]

Reading this thread and thinking back to others, there seems to be a widely-held belief that Providence suffers from an unusually high per capita rate of mentally ill and/or aggressive individuals.

I'd be interested to hear what people think is the reason(s) for this situation, and what policies should be adopted to address it.

PVDJack

I think this is somewhat exagerated. NYC has its share of this sector of society. Guiliani just "disposed" of them or shipped 'em off.

I think PVD is pretty much par for its size.

That said, there definitely needs to be more done to get these individuals off the street (and not the Guiliani way).

[spanishboy]

hey all- Well i was never comparing both cities because they both are different, and u can compare them on a certain level depending on one's view of the city. frankie... u miss understood me, i dont think nyc is a better city because i love pvd... no matter the size/ population/ or # of buildings... what i was trying to get at is that nyc has used their elements in good use, unlike pvd, where as we have beautiful resources but dont use to our full potential... as where burnside park is nice but we can make it into our own rockafeller

center. i sat right in front of the rockafeller rink and noticed they have all these nice monuments around it, where as we have nothing but trees and a broken fountain.

another park is waterplace...but come on.. get serious, if it weren't for waterfire, that place too would be dead as a rock... what i think we need is insparation... have pvd leaders and investors get inspired by other cities who are in great triumph. in my point of view.. rockafeller center inpires me for what our burnside park could be.

[TheBostonian]

I started a new thread for discussion of similar cities:

http://www.urbanplanet.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=19506

[runawayjim]

hey all- Well i was never comparing both cities because they both are different, and u can compare them on a certain level depending on one's view of the city. frankie... u miss understood me, i dont think nyc is a better city because i love pvd... no matter the size/ population/ or # of buildings... what i was trying to get at is that nyc has used their elements in good use, unlike pvd, where as we have beautiful resources but dont use to our full potential... as where burnside park is nice but we can make it into our own rockafeller

center. i sat right in front of the rockafeller rink and noticed they have all these nice monuments around it, where as we have nothing but trees and a broken fountain.

another park is waterplace...but come on.. get serious, if it weren't for waterfire, that place too would be dead as a rock... what i think we need is insparation... have pvd leaders and investors get inspired by other cities who are in great triumph. in my point of view.. rockafeller center inpires me for what our burnside park could be.

burnside park is not even close to being equivalent of rockefeller center... it's completely different. rockefeller isn't a park with trees and stuff, it's just a square between a bunch of buildings. yes, it has monuments and an ice rink. burnside park could be nice if they got rid of the gates, opened it up, fixed the fountain, and kept it clean. it'd be a beautiful city park.

waterplace doesn't need waterfire to thrive. it's a beautiful park in it's own right (once the construction around it is finished, it'll be really nice). hell... i'm thinking about having my wedding ceremony at the ampitheatre there (a little non-traditional being it's a theatre and not just chairs on a flat surface, but it's nice and in providence).

we had inspiration... look at what was there before waterplace park and the mall... (some people hate the mall and liked it before... but it was just a parking lot before, like much of the city). waterplace park is a very different kind of park, with the riverwalk and everything. it's very much a park. have you ever been to san antonio? they have something similar there.

[markOne]

Yes, it may go against their history as a mobile food vendor, but putting Haven Bros. into a permanent structure at Burnside Park would be ideal.

Sorry it took me so long to reply to this. I totally disagree. I like the idea of the Bryant Park style kiosks but not for Haven Bros. They need to stay mobile. They are a tie to Providence's claim to have invented the "diner" concept with horse drawn eateries with a long counter and seats. They allowed indoor eating but they had to fit in the streets and be able to move from factory to factory. Later, the diners became stationary and the Pullman factory in Worcester realized they could build the diners using their rail cars and the rest is history. (edited to add link http://www.dinermuseum.org/dinerhistory.php )

i was comparing NY to RI.. and theres too much to say because theyre both different cities... but i came across an idea when i was in the rockafella center... and it seems like we have similar envoirments... just no waterfall... but i think something like that here would look great... we need a place where ppl can take pictures, we need a signature monument.

I am sick and tired of people from NYC comparing their city to Providence. Especially college kids. They'll usually say something like "Providence ain't nothing". "Providence has nothing over New York". I guess it's pretty difficult to compare a city of 173,000 to one of 8 million a$$holes. I wonder if during his trip Spanishboy could remember seeing the mound of garbage and emotionally distrubed persons (edp's @ NYPD) on Manhatten streets as he has seen on Providence streets.

spanishboy said right up from that they are different cities. He didn't bash Providence. He basically said "I like Rockefeller Center, Providence could use something like that."

I think we need to compare Providence to every city we visit, while keeping in mind the reality of the differences which limit the validity of such comparisons. I like look at all aspects of cities I visit to determine what I like and what I don't. I also like to try to figure out if what I like is something that could work in Providence. It is a fun exercise and it can be good to help inform our opinions. That said I agree that we could do more with our skating center. Will it ever have the same number of visitors as RC in NYC? Obviously not, but that doesn’t mean it can't be a great winter showplace for Providence.

The attempt to compare cities as a whole to Providence is interesting but futile IMO. I don't travel as much as I did a few years ago (I used to travel a lot in my old line of work), but I have never seen a city like Providence. There are lots of cities that have similar features/communities/history/feel to parts of Providence but the total package which exists here is unlike any other city regardless of size. In fact, I think it is the current size of Providence which makes it so unique. The number of cool things (arts, food, hisotry, etc.) per capita is HUGE here. At best we can say city X is like Providence except for A,B,C…

[brick]

I have nothing to add to this thread other than to say that every time spanishboy spells Rockerfeller as Rocka I think about Jay-Z and start throwing rhymes in the my head. (Luckily not out loud, I don't think my coworkers would appreciate my flow)

I also agree that comparing cities is pointless. Why is their so much of that on this site? I mean, I can see some nice discussion but it all ends up being I'm cooler than you because I live in X.

[runawayjim]

I have nothing to add to this thread other than to say that every time spanishboy spells Rockerfeller as Rocka I think about Jay-Z and start throwing rhymes in the my head. (Luckily not out loud, I don't think my coworkers would appreciate my flow)

I also agree that comparing cities is pointless. Why is their so much of that on this site? I mean, I can see some nice discussion but it all ends up being I'm cooler than you because I live in X.

i think he said rockafeller at one point and i thought of that group rock-a-pella... the guys who used to do the "where in the world is carmen san diego" theme...

comparing cities is far from pointless. it's good to take in comparisons of what some cities have done right and what they have done wrong when planning future policies and buildings and everything that pertains to a city. yes, you have to take into account the size and differences, but other than that cities are cities for a reason.

the comparisons go from everything to zoning and planning to dealing with crime and what programs other cities have used that worked.

[brick]

the comparisons go from everything to zoning and planning to dealing with crime and what programs other cities have used that worked.

Right, that's good discussion. going back and forth about which city has more crazy homeless people doesn't seem all that instructive, however.

[Cotuit]

This was the Skating Center at about noon today. Not bad for a day that is for most people, still a work day.