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Major League Baseball in the Triangle?


JDC

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Thats garbage to say that you won't drive 20 minutes to go to a game. If you support it you support it. People drive a hell of a lot more than 20 minutes to go to Bulls games. Patriots stadium is a good 45 minutes outside of Boston and people still go and they consistently sell out. Lousy argument.

While I agree that it's garbage to say folks wouldn't drive 20 minutes for a game, I should point out that a large percentage of the people traveling to Gillette Stadium for Patriots games aren't coming from Boston: they're coming from the suburbs of both Boston and Providence (which is even closer to Foxboro. )

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Thats garbage to say that you won't drive 20 minutes to go to a game. If you support it you support it. People drive a hell of a lot more than 20 minutes to go to Bulls games. Patriots stadium is a good 45 minutes outside of Boston and people still go and they consistently sell out. Lousy argument.

No they want. 77 South is one of the worst roads to drive in rush hour traffic. MANY of the games are played right after work. I have gone to a ton of games with co-workers and know. It can take an hour plus to get to a game. Not many want to fight traffic just to see a few innings of Minor Legue Bas Ball. There is a HUGE debate RIGHT NOW in Charlotte to actually bring them to Uptown. If that happens the Knights will be the best in the League as far as attendance goes.

And for the lousy attnedence when the Panters only won one game. That is TOTALLY not true. I went to three of the games that year and everyone I went to was SOLD OUT. The Panthers are supported both in the good and the Bad. It was not fun watching them lose, but they were supported none the less.

Now as far as this thread goes it might be best to get back to topic. I drifted a bit so back to MLB in Raleigh. Will it happen?

It is anybody's guess, but I would not be surprised at all to see a team in the Carolinas. Whether or not it goes to Charlotte or Raleigh, or perhaps even the Trianlge is difficult to say, but I do know this. In one decade the Carolinas will have a hell of a lot of people. In the two Carolinas the currentl Population is 12.5 million people.

Add 5-6 million in 10 years.

That would put the Carolina's in the 17 million range. APPROACHING 20,000,000 people. It would not shock me for MLB to have a team sililar to the Panthers that are called "Carolina" That is a ton of people that could make that economically feasable for MLB.

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^^That's right. I remember just a few years ago that MANY no shows, even on Monday Night Football, that Ericsson Stadium suffered. (it was obvious on TV each game, so don't even try)

Some of the Hornets' attendance claims the last couple of those "league-leading years" were big, fat lies. The Hornets-loving News & Observer published an article saying wo. CLT had the largest building in the NBA, and the seats may have been "sold" (who knows for how much...like $1 a piece to a corporation but never released just so the Hornets could claim a "sellout"), but there were MANY MANY MANY nights that the reported attendance was around 23,500 and there were at least 5000 empty seats. 18,000 is still nice attendance that would be a sellout in the new arena, but hardly "record-breaking" and league-leading.

Then, for years, all we heard about was "If Charlotte would just build a downtown arena people would come." How about this one:"If Charlotte had an owner with scruples people would come." Or this one: "If Charlotte had better sightlines and more skyboxes in a state-of-the-art arena people would come." OR maybe this one:"If Charlotte had more ACC players that we know, people would come." Well, you got all of that and more. Now, 15,000 people is fine, but why is attendance dramatically lower than the ACTUAL attendance during the week for the old Hornets games?

Given the way traffic is in Charlotte, many people live 20-30 minutes from the Tyvola CLT Coliseum. So if they achieved record breaking attendance there, why is it that they can't go to Knights games? Why haven't the Knights moved to downtown CLT yet with an expandable stadium?? State taxes?

Large-venue pro sports (baseball and football) don't make it if people from >30 minutes away don't go to games. Raleigh people go to Durham Bulls games all of the time, and that's when half of the natives are at the beach!

That said, I think it is a pipe dream to think that people living in a nerdistan are going to blow off work to go to a baseball game.

I'm waiting for the Greensboro push to start going again because the "can draw from CLT and RDU, too". Uhhh, yeah, like the awesome zoo in Asheboro that NOBODY attends.

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If there's going to be baseball in the Carolinas, it really ought to be in the Triangle. Charlotte's got football and basketball, so the other two "major" sports should be in the Triangle.

Besides, Charlotte's already got what they really care about: NASCAR

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The "two teams in the same market" rule's enforcement is the decision of the existing team. The Durham Bulls, *not* minor league baseball, said "no baseball in Raleigh". This was because a) they wanted to keep attendance numbers up b) they were only a single A affiliate of the Atlanta Braves, and didn't want to compete with a double A club and most importantly, c) they wanted a new stadium.

Since that time a) the area's population has gone up at least 20-30%, if not more b) they now play in the triple A International League (as a Tampa Bay affiliate) c) the new stadium was built.

A lot has changed since then... but the Five County Stadium "remodel" also happened. When they did that, there may be a contract locking them in there. They also hope the US 64 bypass will make the games more attractive to the raleigh market, but I think getting I-540 to the bypass will be a bigger boost. So things will probably stay as they are for a while, for better or worse.

The Mudcats lost their initial affiliation with the Pittsburg Pirates because of the old metal bleachers. They are now a Florida Marlins affiliate.

Charlotte used to play in the double A Southern League (the mudcats current league) in a baseball park in the middle of a neighborhood -- Crockett Park. I have Cal Ripken Jr's first ever baseball card from one of the games I saw there. It was a lot like the DAP -- built decades ago and maintained just well enough to play games there. Then a fire burned it to the ground, and it was never the same after that.

Charlotte got it's AAA team during the wave of MLB expansion that brought in the Rockies and Marlins, similar to how Durham moved up to AAA with the creation of the Devil Rays. The Knight's Castle was built with Major League expansion in mind, but no one at the time thought there would be as much interest in Charlotte's CBD as there is now.

To give Triangle residents some perspective, going to the (Charlotte) Knights Castle (home ball park) would be like going to either Clayton or south of Jordan lake, with only slightly improved infrastructure. It looks close on a map, but with traffic, etc. it's not a fun trip.

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Okay, the "my metro is better than your metro" crap between Charlotte and the Triangle has gone on long enough here. I deleted posts that were even remotely like that because it's stupid, as well as posts that were just plain off-topic.

Keep the tone friendly and keep your egos about your metro area out of it. And posts about Charlotte belong in the Charlotte board.

If you had a post that you feel was unjustly deleted send me a PM and I'll take another look. But you know who you are, and so do I, so I'll be watching out for anything further.

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MLB is a tough sell in Tampa Bay because the fans have had very little to cheer about. The stadium sat empty nearly ten years before they even played a game, so it was a relic before it opened because it lacks the retro designs like Camden Yards and other new ballparks. Tampa Bay is a medium sized market. However, it is a Top 10 Television market which plays a big factor in baseball revenue with advertisers. Also, the Tampa Bay market is about 2.5 million with the Orlando and Sarasota-Bradenton market just about 1 hour away. The Devil Rays are not going anywhere soon becaurse they have a 30 year lease on their stadium and even though they are poor in attendance they are a more profitable compared to other mid sized markets.

Sport fans in this area are transplants also and it took the Bucs 27 years and the Lightning 10+ years to capture the hearts of fans. The market is growing and the Rays new ownership is healing old wounds that the past ownership damaged. The ownership is making huge investments for the team to stay and play in St. Petersburg. The Rays will be a turn around team this year maybe not in the Win Loss column, but in community spirit. This team has the potential for .500 in the next 2-3 years and should be a contender in 5 years with developing youth movement. The winning ways cure all damage and will increase the attendance along with the continued growth of the market. I'm sure the D-Rays new stadium will be in Tampa (a more central market location) in the next 10-20 years before it is anywhere else. If anyone FL MLB team is to move it will be the Marlins.

Good Luck with the Major League dream it took the Tampa Bay metro many years!!

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TampaTKE,

Have the drive all the way over to St. Pete and the depressingness of the dome been factors in the attendance there? Of course, Tampa is only a few miles away from the sun in the Summer, but that dome just isn't a very inviting place to go. I guess it would be nice to see what the attendance does if the team wins. Maybe next year.

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Abosolutely, I think the drive becomes alot shorter to St. Pete if there was more of a chance to see a winner. Although the Dome is far enough enough away from the Tampa suburbs which are growing in leaps and bounds East and West of the city core. I also believe crossing that bridge, although it is a fast moving interstate, is a psychological barrier at rush hour.

The Dome is depressing. I am from NJ and grew up a NY Yankee fan, but with heat, humidity, and summer rain and lightning storms it is a necessary evil for the time being. The stadium playing surface, concessions even entertainment are acceptable. It's just when you look up to see the sky and see a grey warehouse structure it just doesn't feel right. The stadium should have been built with a retractable roof!! At least we don't have rain outs and it is always a comfortable 74 degrees!! In the long run the stadium will need to be replaced.

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It's really sad, actually. I was down there in 1987 and they had finished the Suncoast Dome and were just waiting for a team to migrate there. At that point retractable roofs were only a concept. sigh.

Tampa and St. Pete are a lot like Raleigh and Durham. St. Pete had always been this second rate, no fun kind of place so they wanted to be really hip be adding baseball. Raleigh keeps getting new stuff and the downtown is chugging along while Durham is having real trouble getting it to happen north of I-40. I guess that unless we want the secondary cities to become the slums of our metripoli, we should spread out the things to do into those areas. Minneapolis/St. Paul comes to mind, too. But it would be a lot more fun to have baseball in dt Raleigh (again).

Please eat a cuban sandwich and some black bean soup with olive oil and red wine vingar for me!

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Charlotte is in the running, at a very preliminary stage, for possibly getting a relocated Marlins franchise-

http://www.wral.com/news/5389373/detail.html

Although I'd obviously prefer our region to get something like this, we're clearly not ready for it yet, and I'm such a big baseball fan that frankly any team within a few hours of where I live would be great news. Go Charlotte, go!

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What's good for Tampa Bay is good for the Durham Bulls (as they are now).

Until the last year or two, da Bulls were consistently in the running for the International League

pennant *because* the D-Rays would trade their better talent to playoff-bound teams for minor league prospects. That and the manager here did a good job of teaching the young talent, and the mother club did a good job of not calling up talent to the majors before they were ready.

The Florida Marlins move smells like pitting other major league-hungry cities (Vegas, Portland, Charlotte) vs. Miami in a bidding war to get a new stadium plan. As previous posts in this thread have mentioned, outdoor baseball in Florida in the summer is a crapshoot (though an outdoor Vegas ballpark would be just as bad), so something has to give. Hopefully a scenario like this will happen in 10 years or so from now, when the Triangle and Charlotte can justify a MLB team, but right now, no.

As for Lacrosse, there is starting to be a presence in the area with Little League, playing on the fields across from Capitol Park (the former Halifax Cout). The area universities used to have pretty good club teams, but I don't know if that's still the case.

http://www.majorleaguelacrosse.com/

is starting to gain some traction, though primarily in the northeast, but it would be neat if we were on their radar. I don't know about required field size, but they could possibly play at SAS Stadium (not that far from the TTA line), the WRAL soccer complex, or the college football fields, which would be dormant during the MLL season (Late May - mid August) The playoffs would be close to the start of college football, but no overlap.

In 2006, the league is adding four teams -- Chicago, LA, San Francisco, and Denver -- bringing their total to 10. I don't know how easy it would be to sell the area to the league, or the area's sports fans to a different sport (see arena football), but it would be something different than the four major sports (five if NASCAR counts) to the southeast.

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As for Lacrosse, there is starting to be a presence in the area with Little League, playing on the fields across from Capitol Park (the former Halifax Cout). The area universities used to have pretty good club teams, but I don't know if that's still the case.

http://www.majorleaguelacrosse.com/

is starting to gain some traction, though primarily in the northeast, but it would be neat if we were on their radar. I don't know about required field size, but they could possibly play at SAS Stadium (not that far from the TTA line), the WRAL soccer complex, or the college football fields, which would be dormant during the MLL season (Late May - mid August) The playoffs would be close to the start of college football, but no overlap.

In 2006, the league is adding four teams -- Chicago, LA, San Francisco, and Denver -- bringing their total to 10. I don't know how easy it would be to sell the area to the league, or the area's sports fans to a different sport (see arena football), but it would be something different than the four major sports (five if NASCAR counts) to the southeast.

Actually Unc and Duke both have D1 lacrosse teams. Infact the Duke lacrosse team was in the national championship this past season, but they lost. I even think that most Wake County highschools with the exception of a few have lacrosse teams that compete. With the growing migration of people from the northeast I think the success of a MLL team would be very plausible within the next few years. I myself and a lacrosse player and would support the team and I feel like I would not be alone.

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I am not sure The Triangle can support baseball or even Charlotte. I think Vegas or Portland will get it. I have always thought Greensboro would be the best place for baseball. The metro pop is actually bigger than the triangle and since it is in the middle of the Banana (Charlotte, Triad and Triangle), it could draw from all areas.

I think the best thing for the Triangle is having the Hurricanes. I have told the story here about how my brother in law was in Moscow with a Canes jacket on and several Russians came up to him and pointed to the "swirl" and said "Hurricanes". I am in Saigon/Ho Chi Minh City, Vietnam right now and was in Hanoi last week and got on a elevator with my bag that has a Canes luggage name tag and there was another guy there and he looked at me and said..."Are you a Hurricanes fan? I said yes and that I was a season ticket holder. He said he was too. Now this is in Hanoi, Vietnam. Also, I travel overseas quite often and it is amazing how they show the results on many TV stations, not just international ESPN or CNN.

I do think we are right for soccer. MSL is no where as big as European soccer (football) but it is a start. Nothing is as big as Premiership Football (UK soccer). Here in Asia, it is huge. Beckham and other Premiership players are 10 times the worldwide superstars that Michael Jordan ever was.

Ok, back to the subject..........I would hope that Charlotte does get the team. And I read a lot of people saying the Hurricanes are not do well in attendance. They are 23 out of 30 teams and this is ater a lock out season where corporate and personal purchased seats were down. Let them go to the playoffs and see it bounce back. Still all the naysayers but I guess they don't go to the games. If you don't go, you are missing exiciting hockey.

I work with people around the country (well around the world) and when I mention I live in Raleigh, so many people mention the Hurricanes. Plus with them winning, Raleigh/Canes are in the first 5 minutes on Sportscenter every night they play. Can not buy that kind of press.

Gotta go.......Saigon/Ho Chi Minh City nightlife awaits......

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^ yeah NC lax (lacrosse for the layman) is actually pretty good. Carolina and Duke have had stellar programs. Infact, Carolina has won the national (D1) title 4 times ('81,'82, '91,'92). But what is really sky rocketing is HS lacrosse in the state. It's an exciting sport, and I hope that it continues to thrive in NC.

On another note....Charlotte has already had a major league lacrosse team. They were the Charlotte "cobras" and played in the mid 90's. However, attendance was poor, so the team folded after a couple of searons. I bet now there is a much greater fan base (enough to support a team).

However, lax will never be as big in charlotte as it is in baltimore. That place the charlotte of lacrosse (reference to NASCAR). Those people eat/sleep/and breath lacrosse.

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MLB in Raleigh or Durham is not going to happen in our lifetimes, maybe Charlotte. i think the best we can hope for is for the Mudcats to move to a downtown Raleigh stadium, if the Durham Bulls are so worried about competition, i say put the Raleigh team and the Bulls in the same division and create competition between the two cities (i say competition only cause Durham would try to compete, but we all know Raleigh is better :D ) that rivalry would definently support 2 cities, esp in the minor leagues

(and a downtown stadium for raleigh!!!!)

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I don't think its an issue of our cities being ready for major league, it more an issue of the leagues health in general. Of current trends hold, the triangle should be able to support an MLB team in probably 15 years. So will a lot of other emerging metro's. I don't see the NFL or MLB expanding in the next 10 years. We'll be ready, but we won't get any new teams (relocation is always possible though) The NBA has talked of expanding into Europe, but I still think David Stern is a little too ambitious with that plan.

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I do think we are right for soccer. MSL is no where as big as European soccer (football) but it is a start. Nothing is as big as Premiership Football (UK soccer). Here in Asia, it is huge. Beckham and other Premiership players are 10 times the worldwide superstars that Michael Jordan ever was.

I agree. Soccer would be perfect for the Triangle. Because of its low popularity in the US, it's something we could really latch onto while it grows.

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