An article in Pitt News that makes me sick

[Evergrey]

Revitalization efforts in Pittsburgh face a problem. Professor Susan Hansen calls it the

[mjcatl2]

The university is correct. However, their career services etc, should make it know that there are opportuninites in the region. The city should also, obviously, reach out to these students. I don't know how to best to do that, but certainly something is being missed. Some of these comments should be taken with a big grain of salt as there are students everywhere that complain about city ____ is not NYC so I am not too concerned about that. What I am concerned about, is that at the end of the day, Pittsburgh doesn't retain students or attract folks from other regions in the number that comparable cities do. Couple that with the slow growth and higher than average olde population that is dying and you have a population loss.

We simple have to reverse this trend and soon.

[Evergrey]

Your typical self-loathing "Pittsburgh is the only city with problems and is the worst place on earth and doesn't have enough tropical beaches" article. I love how they reference the 2004 Forbes ranking instead of the 2005 ranking (where Pittsburgh was ranked in the middle of the pack due to a change in methodology... which shows you just how worthless these rankings are).

It also shows a lot of arrogance on the University of Pittsburgh's part if they don't believe they have a responsibility to the city they're located in... and take their name after... the city that has done so much to support this university and launch it to its current world-renowned status. An attractive, vibrant, and economically successful city of Pittsburgh would do nothing but help the university of Pittsburgh. Prospective students from around the world would be wanting to come here to attend a great university AND live in a fabulous place.

Of course, I already believe Pittsburgh is a fabulous and attractive place (with an economy that is not as bad as everyone makes it out to be... the economy has been growing for 15 years and salaries have grown at a much quicker rate than the national average). Of course, there is a lot that Pittsburgh can do better. A lot of that can be done with outreach and connectivity. Pitt students are lucky to be living in a city with such a wonderful urban living system with a rich cultural heritage. However, I'm sure the vast majority of college students fail to experience the true essence of the city. Most of the complaining Pitt students would probably be satisfied with nothing less than Pittsburgh magically relocating itself to the Florida coast. For example, 60 percent of students polled dissatisfied with Pittsburgh spectator sports??? What more could you want? Pittsburgh has some of the finest professional and collegiate sports facilities in the country. PNC Park is often rated as the best spectator experience in baseball (too bad the Pirates suck). Pitt's Petersen's Events Center is highly acclaimed as a basketball facility.

[PghUSA]

Thanks for pointing out the fact that the rankings before this past year were BOGUS. The three in a row (was it three?) that ranked Pgh dead last had a way of counting the price of a beer that made Philly and Pittsburgh look like you could buy a Rolls Royce for less . . . because the only way you could get a beer at that size was through a special order through a state store!!?! No one buys that size of beer, but Forbes didn't care.

IT IS ALSO VERY disconcerting that the UNIVERSITY is using the ranking as an excuse WHEN the 150,000 college kids were NOT COUNTED in the Forbes ranking, according to Forbes Pitt doesn't exist when deciding cities for singles?!!? So Univ. of Pgh. give credit to a survey that thinks you and your student population is INVISIBLE but put down the city that supports you!!

O'Niel had a great retort to the Forbes study that stated that Pittsburgh is the MOST ELDERLY (old fogy put down) city in America next to W. Palm Beach-Palm Beach, he said Forbes failed to realize the impact of all those students, many of whom stay here in the summer, many of whom stay here for grad school, and for years afterward, that Gainsville Florida is also in the top 5 of "Old Fogy" cities. Curious though that "GIRLS GONE WILD" videos are always down there at UF in Gainsville, where all the hip and happening parties are going down. Seems that the 60,000 college kids seem to make Gainsville hip (maybe a little too hip for families, but most definetly VERY hip for single guys and girls looking to have fun), but 150,000 college kids can't make Pittsburgh hip and happening for singles.

I'm no big fan of the GGW vids (I kind of hate them) but the point gets at the core of what kind of dumbbumbs are making these arbitrary whimiscal rankings! Gainsville COOL and HIP for singles, Pittsburgh with less fogys and more kids is the PITS!?!

[tooluther]

FYI 178 days untill I move back to Pittsburgh...take that Brian Kelly.

Outside of Boston, there is a brain drain just about everywhere. Its the same this here in South Carolina. People go to Clemson or Furman and then get the hell out as fast as possible. The point is there are 150,000 college student in Pittsburgh. Even if just a few more percent stayed that would be a huge jump.

BTW, I just realized that was my 50th post!!!!

[Sundodger]

I still don't understand how you get that 150,000 figure. Seems awfully high to me.

[Evergrey]

I believe the 150,000 figure is for all colleges and universities in the Pittsburgh metropolitan area.

[PghUSA]

Here are the stats (according to CollegeBoard.com) since there have been some questions of late:

All 4 year+ colleges/universities within an hours drive (50 miles) of downtown Pittsburgh:

136,313

All colleges/universities within an hours drive of downtown Pittsburgh:

170,896

This includes everything from the pretty prestigious Pennsylvania Culinary Institute and the Pittsburgh Aviation Academy to ITT Tech and community colleges, so while I agree ITT Tech and Mr. Smalleys Computer school shouldn't really be counted there are very highly regarded 2 year schools in Pittsburgh that draw young students from many states into the city for an education.

Only PITTSBURGH DMA #'s(might I add unfairly TRUNCATED DMA):

126,924 for all 4 year+ colleges/universities

Only PITTSBURGH DMA for all colleges/universities (again everything from the Pennsylvania Culinary Academy to ITT and DeVry):

159,872

This does not include "Pittsburgh" colleges/universities that feed into and depend on the Pittsburgh campuses such as:

Univ. of Pittsburgh @ Bradford (grad) 1,239 +316

Univ. of Pittsburgh @ Johnstown (grad) 3,196 + 896

Univ. of Pittsburgh @ Titusville (2 year) 534

Univ. of Pittsburgh @ Greensburg (4 year) 1,860 (included)

UPMC Teaching Hospital in Italy

UPMC Teaching Hospital in Las Vegas (under construction)

UPMC Teaching Hospital in Ireland (under construction)

Carnegie Mellon University @ Silicon Valley

Carnegie Mellon University @ Qatar

What is very interesting though is that from downtown to the University District (Oakland) (only 3-4 miles!) Pittsburgh actually boasts a LARGER student population then those quintessential college towns everyone raves about, consider:

53,778 4 year+ college/university students in the THREE MILES from downtown to Chatham College.

58,676 if you count the maximum # that could be at RMU's Pittsburgh campus.

As far as total student population with ALL colleges/universities in that same area: 74,511 with a number of 69,613 if you lop in RMU's maximum at the Pittsburgh campus.

Compare this with the other hip and happening "college towns":

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_large...s_by_enrollment

53,778 (58,676) Pitt, CMU, Carlow, Duquesne, Chatham, Point Park, AI (RMU)

51,712: Arizona State University - Tempe, AZ

51,175: University of Minnesota Twin Cities - Minneapolis, MN

50,504: Ohio State University- Columbus, OH

49,650: University of Florida - Gainesville, FL

49,333: University of Texas at Austin - Austin, TX

45,166: Michigan State University - East Lansing, MI

44,953: University of Central Florida - Orlando, FL

44,578: Texas A&M University-College Station - College Station TX

41,480: University of Wisconsin-Madison - Madison, WI

41,323: University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign - Champaign, IL

Only Boston would have a bigger 5 mile "strip" with greater student population:

76,202 Harvard, MIT, Boston C., Boston U., Brandeis, Bentley, Babson

Educate me on the Boston thing I don't know it that well, I might have included one that really isn't on the "strip" or excluded one.

[TheGerbil]

Articles like this are precisely WHY students think they have to leave after graduation. They believe they won't be able to find a job here. They believe it's not a good place for young singles. But where do they get these beliefs? From articles like this one! Talk about a stupid cycle.

Sure there are places with better night life. But you can say that about pretty much any city. It's time people realize that you don't have to have #1 to be happy. Many cities that don't rank well in bogus rankings like the one Forbes did are still great places to live.

I have heard so many people say they left Pittsburgh and later realized they want to return. Some of them do return, but some just sit there saying "Well, if there were jobs, maybe I would go." Hello, a job won't just fall in your lap. You can't sit there waiting for someone to magically offer you work.

Well, I went on a tangent there, didn't I?

[PghUSA]

G,

I agree when asked where they were going to go to be "cool" most of these 20 and 21 year olds responded "Austin", "Champagne", "Columbus", areas with LESS core student population thus less activity and somewhat less opportunity then Pittsburgh!

[facilities man]

Here are the stats (according to CollegeBoard.com) since there have been some questions of late:

All 4 year+ colleges/universities within an hours drive (50 miles) of downtown Pittsburgh:

136,313

All colleges/universities within an hours drive of downtown Pittsburgh:

170,896

This includes everything from the pretty prestigious Pennsylvania Culinary Institute and the Pittsburgh Aviation Academy to ITT Tech and community colleges, so while I agree ITT Tech and Mr. Smalleys Computer school shouldn't really be counted there are very highly regarded 2 year schools in Pittsburgh that draw young students from many states into the city for an education.

Only PITTSBURGH DMA #'s(might I add unfairly TRUNCATED DMA):

126,924 for all 4 year+ colleges/universities

Only PITTSBURGH DMA for all colleges/universities (again everything from the Pennsylvania Culinary Academy to ITT and DeVry):

159,872

This does not include "Pittsburgh" colleges/universities that feed into and depend on the Pittsburgh campuses such as:

Univ. of Pittsburgh @ Bradford (grad) 1,239 +316

Univ. of Pittsburgh @ Johnstown (grad) 3,196 + 896

Univ. of Pittsburgh @ Titusville (2 year) 534

Univ. of Pittsburgh @ Greensburg (4 year) 1,860 (included)

UPMC Teaching Hospital in Italy

UPMC Teaching Hospital in Las Vegas (under construction)

UPMC Teaching Hospital in Ireland (under construction)

Carnegie Mellon University @ Silicon Valley

Carnegie Mellon University @ Qatar

What is very interesting though is that from downtown to the University District (Oakland) (only 3-4 miles!) Pittsburgh actually boasts a LARGER student population then those quintessential college towns everyone raves about, consider:

53,778 4 year+ college/university students in the THREE MILES from downtown to Chatham College.

58,676 if you count the maximum # that could be at RMU's Pittsburgh campus.

As far as total student population with ALL colleges/universities in that same area: 74,511 with a number of 69,613 if you lop in RMU's maximum at the Pittsburgh campus.

Compare this with the other hip and happening "college towns":

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_large...s_by_enrollment

53,778 (58,676) Pitt, CMU, Carlow, Duquesne, Chatham, Point Park, AI (RMU)

51,712: Arizona State University - Tempe, AZ

51,175: University of Minnesota Twin Cities - Minneapolis, MN

50,504: Ohio State University- Columbus, OH

49,650: University of Florida - Gainesville, FL

49,333: University of Texas at Austin - Austin, TX

45,166: Michigan State University - East Lansing, MI

44,953: University of Central Florida - Orlando, FL

44,578: Texas A&M University-College Station - College Station TX

41,480: University of Wisconsin-Madison - Madison, WI

41,323: University of Illinois at Urbana-Champaign - Champaign, IL

Only Boston would have a bigger 5 mile "strip" with greater student population:

76,202 Harvard, MIT, Boston C., Boston U., Brandeis, Bentley, Babson

Educate me on the Boston thing I don't know it that well, I might have included one that really isn't on the "strip" or excluded one.

If you want to have credibility in your point of view please compare apples to apples.

You list PGH with 150,000 college students by including every college in the metro area then you list other cities with the population of just their one large college and compare it with seven colleges from PGH. Gainesville is a large town of 100,000 in a county of 250,000 and just the Univ. of Florida has almost 50,000 students, not even mentioning other local or community colleges. One out of every two people in the town of Gainesville is a college student. It is noticeably a young crowd.

The same goes for Columbus, OH and Orlando, FL. There are many more college students than your list implies. I do not know enough about the other areas to comment on them.

I agree that PGH is a college town, no doubt about it in my book. Just be careful how you make your point or you lose credibility in your statements.

[pointbreeze]

I agree with a point Tooluther made. Even if a small percentage stayed, that is still a decent population increase. A lot of cities would love to have that many young educated people ready to enter its workforce every year. Its tough to have an entry level job opening for every college student that is graduating. I don't think any city can retain all of its graduates.

I ran across a similar article recently. Sound familiar? ....

The report, "Preventing A Brain Drain: Talent Retention in Boston," indicates that 50 percent of graduates in 2003 who received associate, bachelor's, or graduate degrees from 10 institutions in the metropolitan area left the state.

The report concluded 20 percent of the graduates -- 2,100 were polled -- would have left anyway. But the other 80 percent might have stayed if the Boston area offered more job opportunities, rents and home prices that are more affordable, and a more diverse and vibrant atmosphere, the study said.

[PghUSA]

Facilities you're right on the point that Orlando and Columbus have a few other schools though they are not in a 4 mile proximity, not as numerous for their whole metros as Pittsburgh's are for just 4 miles, and no where near the overall metro pop. as Pittsburgh's.

You're wrong on the fact that I am not comparing apples to apples. Please understand that those were two different comparsions. The final set of numbers dealt with density and "university district". No such thing exists in Orlando or Austin and beyond a possible 2 colleges/universities in any such area nothing equates in Columbus or Champagne that I am aware of.

Please re-read my post after I mention the CMU satellite campuses.

The topic changes from answering where the 150,000 number came from to comparing 4-5-6 mile stretches (the size of some of the larger universities) in other cities . . . I even added #11 to the list . . . Boston to try to get a real-world comparison.

As far as your point about college kids being a greater % of the population in Gainsville or Austin b/c there is less overall population, I can see your point but again the density of the college crowd along Fifth and Forbes is just as strong as those famous "college towns". You're right if you go to the Northside or the South Hills your not gonna feel like your in Austin, if you go 15 miles outside of Austin though UT kids aren't gonna be jumping around as much either. Boston certainly has no problem looking hip and happening as a college town all the while having a much larger overall population then Pittsburgh, my guess would be that although they have 50,000+ more kids in their concentration they would have a lower percentage of college kids then Pittsburgh b/c of their greater metro population.

[facilities man]

PGHUSA

I agree the Fifth and Forbes area of Pittsburgh is a dense concentration of college students that doesn't seem to have the reputation it deserves of a college area like other areas that aren't as active already do.

You know what might be the difference is that Gainesville, Columbus and Orlando all have gathering spots where the college crowd seems to concentrate for after hours parties etc.. and they mix in with the city they are in. Maybe it's just a part of them being more visible. The college crowd in Oakland seems to stay more in Oakland. Just my observation.

[urbanophile]

Educate me on the Boston thing I don't know it that well, I might have included one that really isn't on the "strip" or excluded one.

[tooluther]

Point,

That article on Boston exemplifies my point.

And since I started all the drama I should point out I have a tendency to just throw out population numbers. So lets pretend I said a billion college students and was tongue in cheek about it.

[TheGerbil]

You know, I just thought of something. I recall reading not long ago that 50% of Pittsburgh college grads stay here. That is apparently in keeping with the national average. So you could say it is just a myth that college students don't stay here when they graduate. I just wish the 50% who leave would realize that.

I also wish the Pitt News would do their research before printing an article like this one.

[Evergrey]

You know, I just thought of something. I recall reading not long ago that 50% of Pittsburgh college grads stay here. That is apparently in keeping with the national average. So you could say it is just a myth that college students don't stay here when they graduate. I just wish the 50% who leave would realize that.

I also wish the Pitt News would do their research before printing an article like this one.

They don't care about facts. It's all part of the self-loathing attitude that permeates this city.

[city guy]

Last night I was at a new bar in old city and one of my buddies introduced me to this group of ex-patriots from Pittsburgh who were living in Philly and in the process of opening up a graphic design shop.

They were so surprised I had any interest in Pittsburgh and one joked, do you even know where it is.

I told them about this blog and how I got to know the great things about Pittsburgh and how many things

our cities have in common.

They all loved Pittsburgh but said it is easier to find a job out here.

The one guy said...that Pittsburgh is like Philly 15 years ago and they see the same great things now starting to take root in Pittsburgh.

They were really up on Pittsburgh and I told them to blog this spot to stay up with all the things happening

in their hometown.

[PghUSA]

Thanks CG for getting the word out.

The job issue is definitely a buzz kill around here . . . not so much that it is shrinking any longer but when compared to Phoenix, Miami, Orlando, Houston, even Philly Pittsburgh's tiny growth seems not enough.

There was an excellent article about this (actually op-ed) I'll try to dig it up. The problem it said is not that Pittsburgh lacks talent, resources, infrastructure or potential, what it lacks is the availabilty of "career tracks" for engineers, middle and upper managers, etc. in essence there is work out there (Citizens Financial, Bayer, Seagate, Intel, Vivisimo are all hiring) but there has been a 20 year long lack of a "critical mass" of an "industry" tech, financial, retail etc. The importance of that critical mass today is that people are so mobile and the marketplace changes so quickly they need to know they can go "across the street" or "across the metro" and easily become integrated into another company. Pittsburgh has some great things but nothing approaching "critical mass" as of yet. Problem I have with this theory though is the old "chicken and the egg" thing. Silicon Valley expanded, Atlanta, Phoenix, Seattle etc. because to a degree there were lots of innovators who started companies, stuck to the local scene and didn't give up on their hometown. Seattle used to have a billboard on the way to the airport in the early 1980's when Boeing was laying off everybody with a pulse for the "Last Person in Seattle please turn out the lights", Pittsburgh has NEVER been that awful and yet Seattle was able to take itself out of the absolut gutter and become a world power again. Not all but enough people with big ideas stuck with Seattle and didn't give up on it. "Critical mass" for "career tracks" is an important thing to have especially for the upper segments of the work force, the innovators the accountants, the managers. But at some point those talented people had to tough it out in Seattle and make a go of it in the wasteland of plum orchards that became Silicon Valley, had to roll up their sleves in Atlanta and Houston to make it happen. We create "critical mass"--by sticking with a city and putting down roots of steel, after all it just doesn't pop out of thin air.

[Sundodger]

Seattle used to have a billboard on the way to the airport in the early 1980's when Boeing was laying off everybody with a pulse for the "Last Person in Seattle please turn out the lights",

1971. Seattle has been boooming since the 80's. Luckily Seattle is no longer so dependant on one company or industry like it was in the past with Boeing.

Here is the billboard:

Will the Last Person Leaving SEATTLE -- Turn Out the Lights

To sum it up:

The recession was caused as The Boeing Company, the region's largest employer, went from a peak of 100,800 employees in 1967 to a low of 38,690 in April 1971.

[PghUSA]

Sun thanks for the clarification. I had always heard "back in the recession" thinking it was the Carter 79-80-81 recession.

Pittsburgh doesn't have it nearly as bad (in fact Pittsburgh has turned the corner in many ways since the mid-1980's) but the Seattle point goes to show that some of the expatriots should instead harness their energy to make Pittsburgh a better city rather then using it to find a way out.

[blueblackcat]

This article was written from the standpoint of a bunch of uninformed stuck up student government hacks. I was so outraged that they would print this. Seems that they wouldn't know that much of the impetus behind Pittsburgh's bad image came right from the other university just across the hollow. This is the Forbes effect. This is the Richard Florida effect. This is the epidemy of self-loathing Pittsburghers. This has been refuted by so many people.

Besides, what do kids who spend their time on student government boards know about nightlife? They bicker and infight about ways to spend the student activity fee to fly themselves to leadership seminars in god-knows-what-city. They wouldn't know fun if it bit them in the rear. Why are they still allowed to complain about the entire metro not catering to their every little want? They should show some signs of leadership, instead they are a bunch of amateurs!

[PghUSA]

blue,

I've always said we need to be more like Israel, mandatory military service, too many of these ultraego types that come from families that tragic as it might seem don't teach values anymore have found their way onto campuses without knowing the value of a dollar let alone the value of much else, start stamping their loosely based whimisical opinions about things with the University logo giving it some credance it doesn't deserve.

Oh blue, you need to be a bit more careful on the language, you are more then welcomed to say anything you think here but we need to encourage discussion by at the minimum staying away from unjustified namecalling or putdowns (wether justified or not). I don't think you crossed any lines on those two points, just a friendly reminder for the future. I will have to ask that you remove the non-G rated terms from your post though. I don't cherish having to be a word cop but we do want to make this forum welcoming to even the young if they wish to read it. If you or anyone have any ?s on it let me know, as the mod it's my job to help.

[blueblackcat]

blue,

I've always said we need to be more like Israel, mandatory military service, too many of these ultraego types that come from families that tragic as it might seem don't teach values anymore have found their way onto campuses without knowing the value of a dollar let alone the value of much else, start stamping their loosely based whimisical opinions about things with the University logo giving it some credance it doesn't deserve.

Only thing I ever ask for is that people get the just ridicule they deserve for being a fool, including you or me. I think we've seen what happens when politicians promise to bring values back into governance. My Marine Corps is only as good as it is because it has a long history of being, tough, thankless, and volunteer based. 100 or so of the Fortune 500 companies are headed up or founded by Marines. That's disproportionate to the amount of Ivy League graduates or anyone else in our country. The problem is that people want to pretend they're worthy of leadership, but you don't see those same people rushing to volunteer for the Marines or anything else like it. They just want that special privelage for nothing and they want it now. I'd like to see student government disbanded because it's a joke and a waste of everyone else's tuition money.

Oh blue, you need to be a bit more careful on the language, you are more then welcomed to say anything you think here but we need to encourage discussion by at the minimum staying away from unjustified namecalling or putdowns (wether justified or not). I don't think you crossed any lines on those two points, just a friendly reminder for the future. I will have to ask that you remove the non-G rated terms from your post though. I don't cherish having to be a word cop but we do want to make this forum welcoming to even the young if they wish to read it. If you or anyone have any ?s on it let me know, as the mod it's my job to help.

Well, that's why you're the mod and I'm the guy who fixes it and doesn't take it personally. Pardon my marine corps vernacular, it comes out when I speak from the heart.