Reed Smith Center at PNC 3

[PghUSA]

Urban, your right it was Wabash (I get confused sometimes with P&LERR, Penn, B&O etc. etc.) also thanks so much for the interlude history of the Fifth Ave. site I was going off of the mid-to-late 80's construction of the present structure as the turning point. Interesting facts there.

Tooluther, signature would be nice, although if that artists drawing is the daytime view too, kind of like white crystal glimmering in the sunlight that would be cool . . . stepped back floors to allow for the pedestrian experience though is a MUST, excellent observation and I hope city hall is taking that into account.

I also hope they go for LEED certification on this one, that would be a big statement to the world that we can do it with more then hospitals, convention centers and bank service centers!

[mjcatl2]

I think the building may look pretty sharp. Simple, but classy. It's hard to tell, the rendering within a picture I don't think (and hope) does it justice. This doesn't need to be a signature structure, but is tall enough that it should be a good neighbor and again be classy like most of the Triangle's scrapers.

That this building will be the beginning of perfection downtown is pure hyperbole, but it adds density and residents and is part of a trifecta of major developments in the corridor.

[TheGerbil]

I'm not sure another "signature" building would be a good thing. We don't want the skyline to get messy. What I mean is, the skyline as a whole is pretty, and I think a part of that is the simplicity of most of the buildings. Too many individual buildings that stand out can detract from the big picture. That is just my opinion though.

[blueblackcat]

Pittsburgh is lucky it doesn't have too many of the Modern glass curtain shoebox skyscrapers. Our Modern buildings by and large have unique distinguishing features. This one looks pretty ordinary save for the beveled corners and a sloping roofline, but I think it's great. I think it all depends on the finish and colors used. A new skyscraper should overcome the rust-browns and grays that help make the skyline look pretty drab. That's what will make this look like a signature building.

[tooluther]

I also hope they go for LEED certification on this one, that would be a big statement to the world that we can do it with more then hospitals, convention centers and bank service centers!

It will be. PNC First Side is actualy in the new Urban Land Institute Green Building Case Study book that just got published.

[PghUSA]

^^T, I know firstside is LEED certified, but the new 'scraper will be as well? We know that for sure? If that is true that is great news!

[PghUSA]

UPDATE!

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/06011/635741.stm

Seems now that the city/county is adding money to the project through TIF, this would bring the total taxpayer contribution to 45 million, I'm not sure if this is what we need before a consolidation or we get the books straight. I love the project but can't the money a TIF loan would bring be gotten out in the private marketplace, without taxpayer involvement?

[TheGerbil]

At least with TIF, the city doesn't have to actually put in any real money. They just won't get as much tax revenue from the property for a while. I would rather the city get the revenue, but I don't think TIF is the worst way to go.

[PghUSA]

You're right Gerbil, TIF is not the same as taking it from the taxpayers, but it is close enough, especially when we are having budget issues with the schools.

I know PNC has been a good corporate citizen and deserves a little gravy from time to time but isn't this what got us into trouble with Murphy, the grandieous projects and the liberally added TIFs, the tax abatements and credits and waivers etc. In the mid-90s maybe Pittsburgh needed a "gimmick" to turn the ship around, but when the downtown market is becoming red hot as it has, now is the time to look out for the taxpayers. I'd love the idea of many skyscrapers going in but the more future tax money dedicated to paying off their construction (TIF) and less for schools, services and roads, seems all too big-government and absence of market economy for me. I want Pittsburgh to be that guy at the bar that doesn't have to use gimmicks to get the "10"s in the skyscraper department. Like Hong Kong, we should be beating them away with a stick .

[TheGerbil]

I think Murphy did the right thing in terms of TIFs to foster development. Whatever financial problems the city has, I firmly believe we would have them regardless of what Murphy did. At best he may have been able to slow it down, but then maybe we would not have some of the nice new developments we have.

I do agree that it would be very nice if PNC could do this without one, of course.

[mjcatl2]

I would prefer that these methods were not needed, but if a lot is sitting empty and collecting no (or little tax from property value) or payroll tax anyway, but a TIF deal allows somone to build and house eimployees, then well, it's the path to a bigger taxbase. Not ideal, but the region must be aggressive.

Pittsburgh has to work harder than other cities.

[PghUSA]

I am a big fan of the new skyscraper, but I just kind of wished that Pittsburgh would be turning the corner on this "incentive" stuff, we should be more in demand after all this hard work in the 90's, shouldn't have to continually be paying for it. In the big scheme of things though this might not be a huge $ amount for the ROI.

[TheGerbil]

I believe Dowtown is in demand right now, but would guess that developers will try to get incentives if they can. "You gave so-and-so a tax break, why not us?" They may even threaten not to build, or to build in the suburbs, even though in truth they want to be Downtown.

Let's face it, the city's inferiority complex means developers can easily bluff their way into nice incentives, because the threat of building outside the city is one that feels very real. Look at what GNC did a while back, they got a new building by threatening to relocate to Arizona. They may not have meant it, but it worked.

[PghUSA]

^^ I'll grant you that's one excellent point, the city's tiny 55 sq. miles makes developers play the 190 municipalities against each other. Yet another way this weakens the metroplex, sure Ross gets to pay less, until they lure away a developer from downtown with a more generous TIF. The vicious cycle of fiefdoms canabalizing the collective riches of the region continues .

Sorry to be a downer on this . . . I am delighted they are building the 'scraper, just hoping we round the bend to when developers are willing to privately finance all or the vast majority of a project like this.

[mjcatl2]

I don't think that there is a complex. The reality is that there is what? Like 16-20 million sq ft of available space downtown? This doesn't normally scream "build more space!"

[TheGerbil]

I don't think that there is a complex

Well, regardless of how it relates to this issue, I believe the city collectively does have a massive inferiority complex. The default opinion of natives seems to be "Pittsburgh is dying" or "This city sucks, I need to leave." I say 'default' because that seems to be the cry of those who don't really follow the issues, but just go by what "everyone says."

Similarly, the city government seems to always feel that if it doesn't please potential developers and businesses well enough, they'll rush off to either Beaver County or to another state entirely. I suppose I myself often fall into thinking that way too.

[PghUSA]

This article puts my fears to rest some:

PNC is meeting somewhere near 80-90% of the costs . . . this seems very reasonable.

http://www.post-gazette.com/pg/06013/637184.stm

[pointbreeze]

PGH, you said the following ...

Sorry to be a downer on this . . . I am delighted they are building the 'scraper, just hoping we round

the bend to when developers are willing to privately finance all or the vast majority of a project like this

I agree with you that giving money to those with money seem unreasonable. However, it is how these things work. When I lived in Atlanta, I remember reading about how the state gave millions to Walmart to build stores and distribution centers. Yes, Walmart. Number 1 on the Fortune 500 list. It happens in every city in this country. Local politicians are always willing to give some upfront money in the hope that the long term impact will recoup the investment.

Although it might seem strange to say, the Lazarus TIF worked out fine. Although we lost a department store, the building will be put to use (better use in my opinion).

[blueblackcat]

Local politicians are always willing to give some upfront money in the hope that the long term impact will recoup the investment.

It's rather naive to say there is any real hope of returns on the investment. The average return on transit projects is $2 to the local economy for every $1 spent, which is one of the best returns on taxpayer investment besides spending on education. But instead of allocating money for that, local politicians have a penchant of giving handouts to corporations that do nothing more than a one-time boost on their stock holder's quarterly profit statements. Looking at corporate decisions, tax incentives have virtually nothing to do with the choice to build, relocate, or shut down operations. The whims and personal preferences of the CEO play a bigger role than incentives, IMO, butt these one-time incentives are something of a perk that they've learned to extort out of taxpayers by playing local governments against each other. If anything it ends up hurting innovation and competition because the incumbents can pad their profit margins and use the cash to set up barriers to entry for upstarts or, like Walmart, use that taxpayer money to actually strangle existing smaller businesses.

OTOH there is this longstanding fragility between Pittsburgh and Harrisburgh politicians. There is this give and take between what each government should contribute to a project and it's rarely seen as fair by either side on anything. So, O'Connor might be trying to establish a working relationship with the state by matching their contributions. That way the next big project that comes along doesn't have the state legislature thumbing noses at Pittsburgh for having a history of free-loading, no matter what the reality is.

[PghUSA]

PB, the article I just posted put my fears to rest some, I didn't realize until reading it how much PNC was bringing to the table . . . but yeah it happens everywhere look at how the NFL owners play off of eager city councils throughout the country. Even the "Pittsburgh loyal" Rooney's made rumblings about moving to Washington Co. or even WV Panhandle or SE Ohio when Pennsylvania balked on stadium $.

[blueblackcat]

PB, the article I just posted put my fears to rest some, I didn't realize until reading it how much PNC was bringing to the table . . . but yeah it happens everywhere look at how the NFL owners play off of eager city councils throughout the country. Even the "Pittsburgh loyal" Rooney's made rumblings about moving to Washington Co. or even WV Panhandle or SE Ohio when Pennsylvania balked on stadium $.

But the mystery is why this is on the table now, after the deal is as good as done? There's plenty of other blighted areas that could use some TIF financing rather than something that's going to get built anyway. People are paying off costly tax liens in order to buy and rennovate old properties that would otherwise sit abandoned and collect no taxes either, and that's a shame because their pockets aren't quite as deep as PNC's. $18 million in TIF could cover a helluva lot of unethical tax liens.

[tooluther]

New PNC Three Details....

-Largest "Green" building in the country (take that Bank of America Tower in New York)

-180 Hotel rooms (up from 150)

-23 stories, 7 stories shorter than the ugly PNC 1

-More office space than orig. planned

-Same number of condos.

I haven't seen a new rendering, I'm hoping they decided to step the building back after 4 floors unlike what the original drawings looked like.

Post Gazette

BizJournal

[UrbaniDesDev]

Just a reposting of the PG link and the Business Times article. Exciting times in Pittsburgh

http://www.postgazette.com/pg/06188/704185-100.stm

http://www.bizjournals.com/pittsburgh/stor...03/daily25.html