Higher education in South Carolina

[Spartan]

I haven't reach much about it, but Carolina's BOT situation is pretty jacked up if you look at it, but politicians in South Carolina have been screwing with USC quite literally for centuries so perhaps its to be expected. Having 21 members is ridiculous. UNC and Clemson only have 13. The governor shouldn't be on the BOT, not should any other elected official, and all 16 judicial circuits shouldn't have an appointee either. The judicial circuit thing is the most confounding part.

I think if we had a board of governors for all public colleges and universities like North Carolina's "UNC system" has, it would help shield the universities from this type of stuff to some extent. The politicians could sit on the board of governors, not the BOT directly.

Here's Carolina's BOT makeup (see page 3 / PDF page 11), and compare that to UNC's BOT (top of page) and Clemson's BOT (top of page). Clemson has 6 BOT members appointed by the legislature. That's it. The other seven are "successor" members not appointed by any elected officials. While I'm not clear how they are appointed, I think they are lifetime appointments. So compare those two situations... you have Carolina, which has 21 members with the governor as a sitting BOT member, and the board heavily dominated by politicians and judges, while Clemson has ZERO elected officials, and a minority of their total BOT is composed of non-politicians appointed by the legislature.

All of this garbage is a legacy of when Governor Pitchfork Ben Tillman tried to shut down Carolina in the 1890s. I'll have to go read up on the current situation a bit more, but suffice it to say I'm a bit cynical that the BOT situation will be any better this time next year.

[Spartan]

Well, they hired Caslen. It will be interesting to see if the legislature changes anything or if good ol' boy politics will win out.

[CLT_sc]

Caslen may turn out to be a strong president who does great things for Carolina, his comments today were a good first step.  The relationship between Carolina and the legislature has never been that great..... the legislature complains if Carolina requests money to fix an A/C unit.  Caslen’s military background at West Point May give him credibility to ask for funding and not be perceived like Pastides......who has been a great president for Carolina.

The silver lining in this mess maybe cleaning up the BOT and taking the governor off the board.  

Ole Pitchfork would be sad to see Carolina thriving with 34k students in Cola, many named Rhodes Scholars, Grammy award winning alumni, self made billionaire alumni, the most ranked academic programs in SC, nationally acclaimed business school, highest fund raising and research funding in SC.....an embarrassment of riches as some on here have said.

[GvilleSC]

I was reading this morning about higher education in South Carolina, and came upon a historical nugget that surprised me and brought up a lot of 'what if?' questions specifically related to urban development...

During the 1940's, U of SC (South Carolina's liberal arts college) was severely cramped onto its small downtown Columbia campus and was looking to grow (duplication of programs is another discussion). While this location offered great access to the legislature and state influence, it also granted the legislature much access and interference into the school.  Looking for ways to grow, Sol Blatt (based on LSU) proposed a move out of downtown Cola to 1,200 acres outside of the town limits in 1944. This effort was blocked by men with Clemson ties. 

What in the world would Columbia look like with out the University smack dab in the middle of it? It would certainly remove a lot of questions and commentary on the City being in bed with the school. And, on the other hand-- the midlands may have benefited greatly from the programs and offerings of an (earlier) expanded university. Certainly the face and character of downtown would be vastly different. 

Edited September 11, 2019 by GvilleSC

[vicupstate]

I  think there was an effort to move the University out of DT in the '60's too, but I don't have a lot of info on that. I might have confused it with the '40's effort.   

[CLT_sc]

On 9/11/2019 at 7:44 AM, GvilleSC said:

I was reading this morning about higher education in South Carolina, and came upon a historical nugget that surprised me and brought up a lot of 'what if?' questions specifically related to urban development...

During the 1940's, U of SC (South Carolina's liberal arts college) was severely cramped onto its small downtown Columbia campus and was looking to grow (duplication of programs is another discussion). While this location offered great access to the legislature and state influence, it also granted the legislature much access and interference into the school.  Looking for ways to grow, Sol Blatt (based on LSU) proposed a move out of downtown Cola to 1,200 acres outside of the town limits in 1944. This effort was blocked by men with Clemson ties. 

What in the world would Columbia look like with out the University smack dab in the middle of it? It would certainly remove a lot of questions and commentary on the City being in bed with the school. And, on the other hand-- the midlands may have benefited greatly from the programs and offerings of an (earlier) expanded university. Certainly the face and character of downtown would be vastly different. 

I am glad the Clemson folks helped stop this (especially considering that other Clemson grads have tried with no success to close Carolina).  

But, from Columbia’s perspective and Carolina’s perspective, both benefit with Carolina being in the city.  I think there is too much griping about Carolina running the city, it really is too large to be dominated by Carolina.  And, there is the other entity known as the state government.  

Many businesses are located in Cola due to Carolina, including some really good pharm developments.

[GvilleSC]

37 minutes ago, CLT_sc said:

 (especially considering that other Clemson grads have tried with no success to close Carolina).  

This is a myth. 

[CLT_sc]

4 hours ago, GvilleSC said:

This is a myth. 

Trying to defund Carolina is not a myth.  And, then years later (although not defunding Carolina), Barker argues to the state legislature that  Clemson should be allowed to charge an additional 10% in tuition over Carolina while exploding their balance sheet.....I think the argument he presented was that Clemson was the “only” SC university that would be a leader which is interesting for so many reasons.....and funny to hear an architect trying to articulate financials.   Given the same set of rules by the state, Carolina would generate roughly $50mm more in income annually or would trim the freshman class by 1,500 students sending the average SAT well into the 1350 range.  Anyway, there is no question that Carolina and Columbia both benefit by having a major research university in the middle of downtown.  

As much as Charlotte has exploded downtown in every sector, having a school like Carolina downtown would be awesome.  

[GvilleSC]

Thank you- nothing stated supports your claim. It’s all a mentality and feeling for those associated with the midstate school. 

[CLT_sc]

1 hour ago, GvilleSC said:

Thank you- nothing stated supports your claim. It’s all a mentality and feeling for those associated with the midstate school. 

Very interesting comment, please explain the “mentality” portion, would love to hear the perspective.

As far support, Pitchfork’s dealings and attitudes towards Carolina are well documented.  Barker’s comments are well documented.  Barker’s strange obsession with Carolina goes well beyond normal practices such as extending a fund raising campaign indefinitely...for almost a decade.... until it tops what Carolina raised in a few years and them claiming “we raised more money in the history of S.C.”.   Or, asking the state to allow it a tuition premium because no other S.C. college will lead, which is very false.  Or announcing that the new business building will set standards in S.C., if you have seen the Moore School, it is really nice. FWIW, Clemson is not a bad school, just the attitude of clemson towards schools like Carolina, Furman and Wofford is  interesting, something you don’t see in places like Charlotte.

There is a mentality in the upstate with regards to  Cola and Carolina.  When I lived in the upstate, comments were made that Cola was just a government center with a school and the upstate was where it’s at, the business center.   Or, the midlands are too diverse, Greenville is where you want to be.  Another attitude is that Greenville is the fastest growing part of SC and Cola trails badly which is factually untrue in so many ways.  

Before folks get mad, Greenville is a nice town.  Nothing wrong with living there.  But, as it relates to Carolina and Cola, there is tendency to look down on Cola because of the diversity, government and Carolina.  The mentality goes both ways apparently.  

[GvilleSC]

Once again: Benjamin Tillman is not a Clemson alum.

I've never heard anyone state that the midlands are "too diverse".  You're driving a weird narrative. 

[CLT_sc]

33 minutes ago, GvilleSC said:

Once again: Benjamin Tillman is not a Clemson alum.

I've never heard anyone state that the midlands are "too diverse".  You're driving a weird narrative. 

Yea, I guess being a founder of the college makes that a huge distinction.  And, then Mr Barker came along.

So, what midlands mentality were you referring to?

i was in Greenville recently and still heard the same comments that Cola is too diverse. And, I was downtown in some restaurants and at the Peace Center, I wasn’t in Mauldin, Simpsonsville or Pumpkintown..  I heard that many years when I lived there as well.  It’s not driving a strange narrative, I am sharing real life experiences of being there and living there.  But, maybe I just got out more.

[GvilleSC]

I've never experienced folks in Greenville (or anywhere else in the state) being fixated on Columbia. I don't know why it would ever cross their minds. Generally, negative comments are regarding state government, which can be labeled as "Columbia", much like you'll hear people reference "Washington" when talking about politics. 

You can have your lived experience and outlook on life, and everyone else can have their's. They apparently differ. 

Edited September 16, 2019 by GvilleSC

[CLT_sc]

24 minutes ago, GvilleSC said:

I've never experienced folks in Greenville (or anywhere else in the state) being fixated on Columbia. I don't know why it would ever cross their minds. Generally, negative comments are regarding state government, which can be labeled as "Columbia", much like you'll hear people reference "Washington" when talking about politics. 

You can have your lived experience and outlook on life, and everyone else can have their's. They apparently differ. 

Yea, I agree, I have always been surprised at some of the negative comments about Cola in Greenville.  I get the politics, just not sure why there seemed to be such strong negative opinions about Cola, the mentality as you mentioned previously was a little odd.   And, apparently my experiences are not out of the ordinary, many folks I have met in Charlotte that lived in Greenville had similar thoughts about living there.

How long did you live in Greenville?  Are you still in S.C.?

 

Edited September 16, 2019 by CLT_sc

[GvilleSC]

On 7/14/2019 at 1:25 PM, Spartan said:

Clemson has 6 BOT members appointed by the legislature. That's it. The other seven are "successor" members not appointed by any elected officials. While I'm not clear how they are appointed, I think they are lifetime appointments. 

Indeed- Clemson’s life trustees are lifetime appointments, and they’re selected by the other life trustees to join their ranks on the board. 

On 9/16/2019 at 10:55 AM, CLT_sc said:

How long did you live in Greenville?  Are you still in S.C.?

I lived in Greenville until 2016. I do not currently live in SC, but visit both Carolinas quite often. 

[CLT_sc]

2 hours ago, GvilleSC said:

Indeed- Clemson’s life trustees are lifetime appointments, and they’re selected by the other life trustees to join their ranks on the board. 

I lived in Greenville until 2016. I do not currently live in SC, but visit both Carolinas quite often. 

Would love to get politics out of the BOT at Carolina. 

[krazeeboi]

On 9/16/2019 at 10:30 AM, GvilleSC said:

I've never experienced folks in Greenville (or anywhere else in the state) being fixated on Columbia. I don't know why it would ever cross their minds. Generally, negative comments are regarding state government, which can be labeled as "Columbia", much like you'll hear people reference "Washington" when talking about politics. 

Eh, I don't think Columbia or any state capital really is referenced in the same way Washington, DC is in a political sense, and I've lived in a few different states. Furthermore, SC is a conservative state with a conservative state government so why would folks in other parts of the state regularly talk in that way? 

I don't think folks in other parts of the state, particularly the Upstate and Lowcountry, are fixated on Columbia, but it is often referenced in a pretty dismissive way or, at best, indifferently.  Some of that is due to institutional rivalries, some of it is due to longstanding history, and some of it is due to personal preferences which can involve a few different factors. 

That said, I think much of what we've seen regarding USC leadership in recent history has been a direct reflection of the priority SC puts on higher education. Neither Pastides nor Caslen were the best choices to move the institution forward, but favoritism and politics were apparently more important than actual qualifications.  

[GvilleSC]

22 minutes ago, krazeeboi said:

Eh, I don't think Columbia or any state capital really is referenced in the same way Washington, DC is in a political sense, and I've lived in a few different states. Furthermore, SC is a conservative state with a conservative state government so why would folks in other parts of the state regularly talk in that way? 

I mean, to clarify here: you don't have to be of the opposite political ideology to disagree with the functioning (or lack there of) of one's government. For example, look at Mark Sanford and his stunts to bring attention and light to the operations in the state house (most memorably regarding budgets and pork), and they were largely of his own party, no? 

Edited October 28, 2019 by GvilleSC

[CLT_sc]

4 hours ago, krazeeboi said:

Eh, I don't think Columbia or any state capital really is referenced in the same way Washington, DC is in a political sense, and I've lived in a few different states. Furthermore, SC is a conservative state with a conservative state government so why would folks in other parts of the state regularly talk in that way? 

I don't think folks in other parts of the state, particularly the Upstate and Lowcountry, are fixated on Columbia, but it is often referenced in a pretty dismissive way or, at best, indifferently.  Some of that is due to institutional rivalries, some of it is due to longstanding history, and some of it is due to personal preferences which can involve a few different factors. 

That said, I think much of what we've seen regarding USC leadership in recent history has been a direct reflection of the priority SC puts on higher education. Neither Pastides nor Caslen were the best choices to move the institution forward, but favoritism and politics were apparently more important than actual qualifications.  

I don’t agree that Pastides wasn’t the best choice to move Carolina forward.  In his 10 years, he brought record fund raising, record research funding, the highest application levels ever and in spite of state politics not favoring Carolina, the school has grown while raising admission standards to high levels.  The Moore school, largest school on campus,  is now a 4 year program and highly selective in addition to having metrics that rival traditional top 25 business schools.  The Honors College is still tops in the country.  The list of accomplishments is long and he laid a foundation for expanding the medical school and getting needed on campus projects started....most recently the new village.

i don’t think the process to hire Caslen was a model by any means.  But, he may turn out to be good in spite of the process.  Carolina is doing very well, way better than any media or politician in SC will admit.  Caslen seems to be a good leader who has really engaged with students and seems to have the vision to move Carolina forward.

[krazeeboi]

On 10/28/2019 at 5:35 PM, GvilleSC said:

I mean, to clarify here: you don't have to be of the opposite political ideology to disagree with the functioning (or lack there of) of one's government. For example, look at Mark Sanford and his stunts to bring attention and light to the operations in the state house (most memorably regarding budgets and pork), and they were largely of his own party, no? 

Of course you don't, but still nobody really references their state government like that. When people talk about Columbia, Atlanta, Raleigh, Annapolis, etc., they are talking about the actual city. 

[krazeeboi]

23 hours ago, CLT_sc said:

I don’t agree that Pastides wasn’t the best choice to move Carolina forward.  In his 10 years, he brought record fund raising, record research funding, the highest application levels ever and in spite of state politics not favoring Carolina, the school has grown while raising admission standards to high levels.  The Moore school, largest school on campus,  is now a 4 year program and highly selective in addition to having metrics that rival traditional top 25 business schools.  The Honors College is still tops in the country.  The list of accomplishments is long and he laid a foundation for expanding the medical school and getting needed on campus projects started....most recently the new village.

i don’t think the process to hire Caslen was a model by any means.  But, he may turn out to be good in spite of the process.  Carolina is doing very well, way better than any media or politician in SC will admit.  Caslen seems to be a good leader who has really engaged with students and seems to have the vision to move Carolina forward.

We can agree to disagree here. I once had hope but I don't see USC being the catalyst for knowledge-based economic development that I once thought it could be. I most certainly don't see Caslen moving the university in that direction. His selection reminded me of Glenn McConnell's appointment as president of CofC. That's good ol' South Carolina for you.

[CLT_sc]

1 hour ago, krazeeboi said:

We can agree to disagree here. I once had hope but I don't see USC being the catalyst for knowledge-based economic development that I once thought it could be. I most certainly don't see Caslen moving the university in that direction. His selection reminded me of Glenn McConnell's appointment as president of CofC. That's good ol' South Carolina for you.

We agree on one thing, I don’t see a knowledge economy taking root in SC anytime soon.  The state needs to show a little movement towards recruiting companies that aren’t manufacturing related.  If the state does this, Carolina will be at the head of the pack.  But, currently, a lot of Carolina grads are moving to Charlotte, Atlanta, NYC and DC.  Charlotte is the #1 destination for business school grads.  So, in a way, the school is helping a knowledge based economy, just up the road 90 miles and over the state line.  

[distortedlogic]

On 9/16/2019 at 10:06 AM, CLT_sc said:

 

i was in Greenville recently and still heard the same comments that Cola is too diverse. And, I was downtown in some restaurants and at the Peace Center, I wasn’t in Mauldin, Simpsonsville or Pumpkintown..  I heard that many years when I lived there as well.  It’s not driving a strange narrative, I am sharing real life experiences of being there and living there.  But, maybe I just got out more.

I guess that has been been your expereince, but I'm pretty sure I can say I have NEVER heard another person making comments about Columbia being too diverse (or even any other place for that matter). I can't even imagine what the context or purpose of such a statment would be, especially given that Columbia's demographics aren't THAT much different in the grand scheme. Not to mention, that diversity is often listed as a positive attribute by upstaters; especially when we're talking about multiple nationalities, languages, and cultures being represented right here. 

On 9/16/2019 at 10:55 AM, CLT_sc said:

Yea, I agree, I have always been surprised at some of the negative comments about Cola in Greenville.  I get the politics, just not sure why there seemed to be such strong negative opinions about Cola, the mentality as you mentioned previously was a little odd.   And, apparently my experiences are not out of the ordinary, many folks I have met in Charlotte that lived in Greenville had similar thoughts about living there.

 

Interesting. I wonder, is this similar to your ongoing negative views and comments regarding Greenville and the upstate?  Are you being a bit hypocritical here? 

[Spartan]

On 10/29/2019 at 9:13 PM, krazeeboi said:

Of course you don't, but still nobody really references their state government like that. When people talk about Columbia, Atlanta, Raleigh, Annapolis, etc., they are talking about the actual city. 

 

I disagree. I hear people reference it as "the government" from time to time. It's not as often as Washington or other national capitals, but is does happen.

[CLT_sc]

Good article from a Clemson publication about the hatred of Clemson towards Carolina....no myth.

https://theclemsoninsider.com/2019/11/23/the-reason-clemson-carolina-dislike-each-other-so-much/amp/?__twitter_impression=true

As much as UNC, Duke and State are competitive in NC, they all work towards making NC better.  While it’s been years since Pitchfork, recent Clemson leaders like Barker have made it clear that there is no respect towards Carolina.  SC would certainly be better with both of the state’s large universities working to make the state better.