Ivy League of the South

[lammius]

6. Generally politically very, very liberal, with a generally secular/disproportionately non-Christian student body

I agree entirely with your criteria, but I'm not sure what you mean in No. 6. Are you saying Ivies have disporportionately non-Christian student bodies when compared to some of the Southern schools listed (even public ones[?]), or when compared perhaps to other private schools, many of which were founded by various Christian sects & orders?

[johnnydr87]

Basically your top schools will have a lot of: Jews and Asians (some of which can be Christian) in proportion to the population. Conversely, your top schools will not have as many White Anglo Saxon Protestants in ratio to the population.

edit. bad wording.

Anyways, compared to the makeup of the nation, top 25 schools are generally more liberal.

[shrek05]

4. Relatively large undergraduate student body, plus graduate schools

I wouldn't say thats true. In comparison to public schools, Ivies are much much smaller. And compared to other private schools, most Ivies are on the small side of private universities (not comparing to small liberal arts colleges). Except Penn and Cornell, the rest are all under 7500 undergraduate students with Dartmouth at the smallest at under 5000. Compared to say the average 28000 student public university or the average 12,000 large private university, this is significantly smaller.

Heh, and your number 6, I believe most institutions of secondary education are extremely or liberal leaning .

[mallguy]

I wouldn't say thats true. In comparison to public schools, Ivies are much much smaller. And compared to other private schools, most Ivies are on the small side of private universities (not comparing to small liberal arts colleges). Except Penn and Cornell, the rest are all under 7500 undergraduate students with Dartmouth at the smallest at under 5000. Compared to say the average 28000 student public university or the average 12,000 large private university, this is significantly smaller.

Heh, and your number 6, I believe most institutions of secondary education are extremely or liberal leaning .

Good point; relatively large compared to liberal arts colleges (even those called "universities") which are being talked about as an "Ivy".

For the secular/liberal aspect: yes, there are relatively fewer actively church-going WASP Republicans at Ivy League schools than at a lot of Southern ones, due to demographic differences in student bodies, cultural trends in the schools' geographic areas, etc. For example, when walking to church one Sunday morning while naturally wearing a suit and tie, at my Ivy League school, I was stopped by a classmate who looked confused and who asked, "Do you have a job interview or something?" and looked really surprised when I told him that I was going to church. That encounter would be less likely to happen at a Southern school in the Bible Belt.

My Ivy League school was MUCH, MUCH more liberal and secular than my top-10 non-Ivy, non-Northeastern institution. I never picked up on any significant hostility to Republicans or Christians at the latter; I certainly did at the former.

[johnnydr87]

Good point; relatively large compared to liberal arts colleges (even those called "universities") which are being talked about as an "Ivy".

For the secular/liberal aspect: yes, there are relatively fewer actively church-going WASP Republicans at Ivy League schools than at a lot of Southern ones, due to demographic differences in student bodies, cultural trends in the schools' geographic areas, etc. For example, when walking to church one Sunday morning while naturally wearing a suit and tie, at my Ivy League school, I was stopped by a classmate who looked confused and who asked, "Do you have a job interview or something?" and looked really surprised when I told him that I was going to church. That encounter would be less likely to happen at a Southern school in the Bible Belt.

My Ivy League school was MUCH, MUCH more liberal and secular than my top-10 non-Ivy, non-Northeastern institution. I never picked up on any significant hostility to Republicans or Christians at the latter; I certainly did at the former.

Just for interest, which Ivy did you attend?

As for top ten non-ivy: MIT?

And I think saying they are more liberal because of their location would be a little foolhardy. I'd say most secondary institutions are more liberal than their surroundings. U. of Arkansas, Hendrix, etc.

[bobby255BR]

While the Gamecocks have a highly-rated International Business program within US News & World Report's rankings for business schools, you have to keep in mind that they rank schools for 30+ specialties within business and, more importantly, have overall rankings which factor in the schools' rankings across all of the specialties that they offer. By the criteria of overall schools, South Carolina does not even make the top 50. There are 26 public business schools ranked in the top 50 and 15 or so southern business schools, yet University of South Carolina is not among them - that other USC did make the list though.

2006 rankings - http://www.usnews.com/usnews/edu/grad/rank...arank_brief.php

1. Harvard University (MA)

2. Stanford University (CA)

2. University of Pennsylvania (Wharton)

4. Massachusetts Institute of Technology (Sloan)

4. Northwestern University (Kellogg) (IL)

6. Dartmouth College (Tuck) (NH)

6. University of California

[johnnydr87]

Where Brown University on that list

grad schools.

[mallguy]

Just for interest, which Ivy did you attend?

As for top ten non-ivy: MIT?

And I think saying they are more liberal because of their location would be a little foolhardy. I'd say most secondary institutions are more liberal than their surroundings. U. of Arkansas, Hendrix, etc.

The one in Cambridge, MA. That is an extremely liberal town, and I think you're right in that "most secondary institutions are more liberal than their surroundings". In the Northeast, though, the whole area is generally more liberal than the South, but schools are likely, in both places, to be more liberal than their surroundings. We're on the same page.

[Pillsbury]

I guess he's never heard of Tulane. I hear it's a pretty good school.

Yeah, what a terrible college. It was only founded in 1834, way too young to be an Ivy.

Also I gotta say this, most WASP people as it is defined, does not included Southern Baptists, Pentecostals--basically your Southern variation on Protestantism. The Presbyterian Church, the Episcopal Church, the United Church of Christ, American Baptists, MAYBE the Lutheran (ELCA only) and I guess the Methodists (UMC only) are the old sisters of mainline Protestantism, and those people are hardly Republicans, and if they are they're probably Republicans In Name Only. If you don't believe me, go to an Episcopal Church on a Sunday morning and county how many "W" stickers you see. Either way, the schools of the Ivy League were created for the WASP establishment. There are very few WASPs in the South outside of states like Virginia, South Carolina, and maybe NC and GA--most WASPs are found in the Northeast and their children attend Ivy League schools at a greater rate than other groups of people.

[shrek05]

Where Brown University on that list

Neither Brown nor Princeton are on the list because they do not have undergraduate nor graduate business schools.

Yeah, what a terrible college. It was only founded in 1834, way too young to be an Ivy

Well, considering all the Ivies were established during the Colonial period long before the revolution... with only Cornell built later in the 1800s, I would say 1834 is too young.

The one in Cambridge, MA. That is an extremely liberal town

Haha, perhaps that is even an understatement =P. Boston in general, oh dear. If Ann Coulter were to step foot on Boston soil, the world would end.

[TennBear]

Well, considering all the Ivies were established during the Colonial period long before the revolution... with only Cornell built later in the 1800s, I would say 1834 is too young.

Cornell was founded in 1865.

Here are the founding dates of the Ivy League Schools. Many did not start classes until some later date.

Harvard 1636

Yale 1701

Princeton 1746

Penn 1751

Columbia 1754

Brown 1764

Dartmouth 1769

Cornell 1865

[AuLukey]

While visiting my friend in Chapel Hill yesterday, this topic came up. She said that the only reason that students at UNC caresit made the list in Forbes, or whoever it was, was that Duke did not make that same list. Otherwise, they could give a crap less. I thought that was a bit funny. It's like the article that placed Charlotte as the 34th most drunk city, and it made the news. Who cares? If you make a list of the "new ivey's," what difference does it make if 20 some other schools do too?

[LizellaJacket]

Georgia Tech is the 8th ranked public school in America.

[rusthebuss]

The College of William and Mary in Hampton Roads: Chartered on February 8, 1693, by King William III and Queen Mary II as the second college in the American colonies

[Pillsbury]

The College of William and Mary in Hampton Roads: Chartered on February 8, 1693, by King William III and Queen Mary II as the second college in the American colonies

^ That's an excellent candidate. People always forget about the College of William and Mary, and they were such a great husband/wife duo....

[mallguy]

The line between premier schools and others has to be drawn somewhere. If Georgia Tech and others that are very good schools are included as "new Ivies", that dilutes what an Ivy is. Stanford, Duke, MIT, Cal Tech- sure, but once schools out of the top 15 or so are included, then "Ivy" means just "a good school".

[johnnydr87]

The line between premier schools and others has to be drawn somewhere. If Georgia Tech and others that are very good schools are included as "new Ivies", that dilutes what an Ivy is. Stanford, Duke, MIT, Cal Tech- sure, but once schools out of the top 15 or so are included, then "Ivy" means just "a good school".

Yep.

Most of the schools aren't Ivy League-level.

Other schools in the top 15 (Stanford, MIT, CIT, Wash U, Northwestern, U. Chicago) will never be "ivy" anyways because it's a historical thing. Nevertheless, they will still be very good schools in their own right (like those mentioned).

[peaceloveunderstanding]

The line between premier schools and others has to be drawn somewhere. If Georgia Tech and others that are very good schools are included as "new Ivies", that dilutes what an Ivy is. Stanford, Duke, MIT, Cal Tech- sure, but once schools out of the top 15 or so are included, then "Ivy" means just "a good school".

Duke isn't close to being an Ivy, in name or otherwise. Stanford could fit in, but Stanford has a decidedly different focus as it was founded by captains of industry. University of California is by far the best public university.

This talk of little ivies in absurd as there is more to the Ivies than just academic prestige. They have a culture unto their own that's not replicated on such a scale anywhere else.

Here's something interesting to look at - a chart of the endowments of universities. Harvard's endowment growth alone this year was slightly lower than Duke's total endowment.

----

Someone mentioned how important one's school of choice was for gaining connections and entering the good ol' boy network, well that can be true, but looking at the top (CEO) we see a different story. School prestige is probably less important in business than it is law or politics. Performance is key in business and pedigree doesn't mean too much for too long. I don't know how far that goes towards other executive positions, but from what I've seen on the profiles of corporate executives of big companies, rarely do you find someone that has attended an Ivy.

Below is a link to an article listing the "colleges attended by CEOs hired at Fortune 1000 firms in 2004, 2005".

http://www.usatoday.com/money/companies/ma...eo-colleges.htm

[johnnydr87]

Duke isn't close to being an Ivy, in name or otherwise. Stanford could fit in, but Stanford has a decidedly different focus as it was founded by captains of industry. University of California is by far the best public university.

This talk of little ivies in absurd as there is more to the Ivies than just academic prestige. They have a culture unto their own that's not replicated on such a scale anywhere else.

Here's something interesting to look at - a chart of the endowments of universities. Harvard's endowment growth alone this year was slightly lower than Duke's total endowment.

----

Someone mentioned how important one's school of choice was for gaining connections and entering the good ol' boy network, well that can be true, but looking at the top (CEO) we see a different story. School prestige is probably less important in business than it is law or politics. Performance is key in business and pedigree doesn't mean too much for too long. I don't know how far that goes towards other executive positions, but from what I've seen on the profiles of corporate executives of big companies, rarely do you find someone that has attended an Ivy.

Below is a link to an article listing the "colleges attended by CEOs hired at Fortune 1000 firms in 2004, 2005".

http://www.usatoday.com/money/companies/ma...eo-colleges.htm

Duke is ranked 7th nationwide according to US News, pretty much the premier ranking system. Stanford is ranked 4th.

By contrast, non ivy league institutions such as Brown, Cornell, Dartmouth, U Penn, and Columbia are all ranked lower. (U Penn is actually tied.)

Duke is definitely up to the academic standards of the ivy leagues.

[peaceloveunderstanding]

Tell me how the US News is the premier ranking system? Who decided that? Most of the schools near the top hate the ranking system, especially Stanford's president. They also get their facts wrong on many of the entries.

As for Duke, it may be up to the academic standards, but it doesn't have the history or prestige. The Ivies have something to them that makes them something beyond schools. And I will end with a quote from myself "Harvard's endowment growth alone this year was slightly lower than Duke's total endowment."

[johnnydr87]

Tell me how the US News is the premier ranking system? Who decided that? Most of the schools near the top hate the ranking system, especially Stanford's president. They also get their facts wrong on many of the entries.

As for Duke, it may be up to the academic standards, but it doesn't have the history or prestige. The Ivies have something to them that makes them something beyond schools. And I will end with a quote from myself "Harvard's endowment growth alone this year was slightly lower than Duke's total endowment."

US News is by far the most commonly used ranking system. Just visit any college admissions website/forums. Thus, their methodology is the most valued of all the ranking systems. It's based on standardized scores, endowment (your favorite!!), and peer assessment (look it up), among other things.

History? Did you bother to read the other posts about founding dates of the colleges?

The Ivies have something to them that makes them something beyond schools.

Care to enumerate what that "something" is?

And I will end with a quote from myself "Harvard's endowment growth alone this year was slightly lower than Duke's total endowment."

This comment is even more idiotic than your previous.

You obviously know NOTHING about the Ivy Leagues. Because in that very chart you linked, you'd see that there are quite a few Ivies (of 8) with lower endowments.

Cornell (3.777 billion), Darmouth (2.714 billion), Brown (1.843 billion) < Duke (3.826 billion)

Clearly, endowment does not make an Ivy League.

Neither does the founding year, as Cornell was founded after Duke.

Thus, as has been said on this thread, if you had bothered to read any of it...."Ivy League" is a historical designation for some prestigious northeastern universities with similar values.

[peaceloveunderstanding]

The merits of the US News and Review's ranking system are certainly debatable. It is only through marketing that their system is in the forefront of what we see when looking at college rankings. It can be gamed with enough resources, and near the top they shift every year or so to keep in interesting. It's a fine guide, though I have found that it has some mistakes.

As for Duke, the roots of Duke may have started to come together long ago, but it's offical founding was 1924. Duke is a very impressive university and can compare with the Ivy League and beat some of the schools in some categories in academics. It still doesn't have the history, money, or the culture - the the main point of my posts.

There is a difference.

You are right however, I didn't consider the 'lower tier' of the Ivy league in my endowment claim. I may have gotten too caught up in the amazing numbers Harvard posted. I mentioned Duke because it is the school I'm most familiar with of the top tier, it's in North Carolina, and because it's the best of the South.

[mallguy]

As an Ivy graduate (and a graduate of a non-Ivy for another degree), it's nice to hear that Ivies are something "beyond schools". I'd say that they just have some commonalities that distinguish them from other schools such as Stanford, as in some of my posts above, so I think it's silly to say that other non-Ivy schools are Ivies.

From my Ivy perspective, I always thought that Duke was definitely a top-tier school with high prestige; perhaps its endowment is relatively small, but the school thus seems to have a better payoff from its financial resources, dollar for dollar, than fancy schools with larger endowments; I'd give Duke some credit for that.

[shrek05]

Cornell (3.777 billion), Darmouth (2.714 billion), Brown (1.843 billion) < Duke (3.826 billion)

Graduating class from Dartmouth and Brown each year are significantly smaller than Duke. Similarly, Dartmouth and Brown (and Princeton to some extent as it doesn't measure up to Yale and Harvard in endowment) lose possible endowment by not having many professional schools/graduate programs. Princeton and Brown have very limited graduate programs and Dartmouth has a business school. Compared to the thousands that attend Duke for grad school, endowment is a little skewed here. What you should look at is endowment per capita which Princeton takes the lead and Harvard second, followed by smaller schools like Williams and Amherst and most of the Ivies top that list (with the exception of Cornell.)

Care to enumerate what that "something" is?

Umm, they are all New England schools and it gets (@$*)! cold and there is Ivy growing on the walls? =P. The difference between Ivies and Duke is the rich history each Ivy has (Cornell again may be the only exception.) Duke was modeled after Princeton (Princeton was actually offered lotsa money to change its name to Duke, however, it turned it down, so Duke was formed.) If you have been to both campuses, Duke's architecture is surprisingly similar to that of Princeton's as it was meant to be a carbon copy down south.

[mallguy]

Umm, they are all New England schools

Since when is Philadelphia (home of U of Pa.) in New England?