Failure of New Urbanism (Part I)

[Richhamleigh, DC]

Park & Ride only helps people commuting to Charlotte in the morning. It does nothing for the heavy congestion that hits that area each weekend. I was there this past Saturday and it took me 10 minutes to get out of it.

The location of the commuter rail stations has not been set yet nor has the Vermillion been completely built up (later phases) so I don't think you are in a position to comment on this either.

The location of the commuter rail stations has not been set yet nor has the Vermillion been completely built up (later phases) so I don't think you are in a position to comment on this either.

OK, tell us where Vermillion's approved and proposed phases of the projects' master plan interacts with either the "Anchor Mill" or "downtown Huntersville" station sites.

If you are concerned with traffic congestion along NC73 come to a public meeting on the subject.

[uptownliving]

When is the next public meeting on NC 73?

[Richhamleigh, DC]

I live in Huntersville too.  When I first got here I thought that Exit 25 was where the best planning took place, but it has kinda turned out to be a big mess, and I would not really consider it a neighborhood.  It is sprawl, although nice looking, that I hope is not repeated in the city.

On the other hand, Exit 23 looks like it is kinda coming together better as a real neighborhood.  It is close but I think it needs a few more things.  Giliead needs to be more pedestrian and bike friendly, when they build that new development next to Bilo care should be taken to make it more like Rosedale, and the greenway should be used to tie all of the neighborhoods together.  This area is probably Huntersville's last chance on the west side.  I really hope they don't mess it up.

Exit 23. I thought I was the only one who sees it! PLEASE pay attention to the Town of Huntersville website and look for upcoming public meetings about Gilead Road, "downtown", and new development occurring around Rosedale. If the public isn't more vocal about it LIKES and WANTS about Huntersville, it can change!

Be vigilant!

[Richhamleigh, DC]

Meetings and information...

Go to www.huntersville.org

Click on "Town Planning"

There's a menu that includes "Public Meetings"...

[monsoon]

[JunktionFET]

Aside from AustonWoods near the future NorthLake Mall, I seriously considered moving to Rosedale when I lived in that area. I worked literally right down the street in the Business Park, and frequently had lunch in Rosedale. Z Bricks is one of the best Italian restaurants I've been to, and I simply can't have enough Quiznos. I would've also been close to the Huntersville Lupie's... Wow, I miss Lupie's.

[monsoon]

[Richhamleigh, DC]

Why not improve the pedestrian connections across I-77? From Rosedale and the biz park to downtown Huntersville is only about a mile. Huntersville needs more bridges (but NOT interchanges!) across I-77! Maybe a couple of ped only bridges? Thumper might have it right...give that greenway along the Torrence Creek a bridge across to link Rosedale with the new CATS Park and Ride?

[Richhamleigh, DC]

I appreciate the comments. Here are a few answers to your questions.

First there is no mass transit planned for Birkdale Village. Sleepy it is located in a suburban area that did not exist 10 years ago. The closest bus service is several miles away to the Park & Ride lot into DT Charlotte. And is located on a very congested Hwy built by the State with will no input from the local city government. It is surrounded on one side by a golf course community and on the other by a highway that surrounds Lake Norman. It probably won't get much more development there due to new state rule limiting development in the Catawba watershed. Birkdale Village was built in just 2 years and there is some construction on outlying parcels.

The development is finished and does also have an adjoining community of single family homes on very small lots. It is a good concept, but as I mentioned above there are no real stores in this development needed for day to day living. Instead it is high priced restaurants, and mall stores such as the Gap, Barnes & Nobles, etc. So my suspucion is the residents of this community (Greens @ Birkdale) use their cars as much as anyone else to get to school, work, grocery stores, etc.

I will be doing a part II to this by the way that shows one that works much better. Ironically it is fairly close to Birkdale, But it is also taking much longer to implement. I just need to go get some pics.

May I suggest that Part II be Rosedale?

[antimallrat]

Why not improve the pedestrian connections across I-77? From Rosedale and the biz park to downtown Huntersville is only about a mile. Huntersville needs more bridges (but NOT interchanges!) across I-77! Maybe a couple of ped only bridges? Thumper might have it right...give that greenway along the Torrence Creek a bridge across to link Rosedale with the new CATS Park and Ride?

I agree to some form of pedistrian improvements linking the East and West (separated by 77) sides of Huntersville at exit 23. It would be great to see some pedestrian / bike access from Rosedale / Hospital / Business park area there at 23 over to Hwy 21 and the Huntersville down-town. I could see folks from the Hospital and Rosedale making their way to nearby restaraunts and businesses with such access, and eventually walk over and get on the Lt Rail.

win-win situation for pedistrians and businesses

[Neo]

Welcome antimallrat!!

[Richhamleigh, DC]

A downtown huntersville plan is about to begin.

[KristieGB]

I have to reply to the commentary on Birkdale Village as a failed attempt to build an urban place shop and live. I'd also like to speak to the added ugly parking lots, heavy traffic and closed businesses and otherwise destructed neighborhoods.

I live in Birkdale Village in one of the houses. I love where I live. I can walk to pubs, shopping and movies, and I do. I used to live in downtown Charlotte in the very trendy Fourth Ward neighborhood. Let's talk about traffic. Downtown? Puleese, very heavy of course. Parking? Multiple deck parking garages all over. Public transportation? Well, this is an issue for all of Mecklenburg county, not Birkdale Village. There is no subway system. If you want to take the bus, have at it, but most don't as it doesn't always go where you're going.

So moving from downtown urban life in Charlotte to Birkdale Village was a great and easy transition for me. Except now, I have a grocery store and a garage and grass!

Note - the movie theater that closed did not close for the reasons you suggest. It closed because Movies at Birkdale BOUGHT it. They bought The Palace Theater, and then they closed it much to the disappointment of many. Ask them why.

No doubt the traffic has increased here. Show me where it isn't increasing in Charlotte? It's all about urban sprawl in the greater Charlotte area. Attempts are being made to add lanes on I77 and so forth, but yes, traffic is heavy during rush hour around the Birkdale Village exit as people are going home or to work.

So, adding all this shopping....you've got to add parking lots. How annoying to not have ample parking? I see that as a non-factor.

You're right - 5 years ago even, this was just in the starting stages. But it brought a book store, a sporting goods store, finer shopping and more restaurant choices to an area that previously had to leave to get it. Is this a bad thing?

So then, what's the real beef with the Birkdale Village concept? I don't get it. Maybe I've been duped by marketing, but I thought the pictures you showed were appealing.

[monsoon]

I think if you read through the thread you will understand what the beef is. Birkdale Village is nothing more than an updated strip mall with some apartments thrown in. When you consider it consists of mall chain stores, adds to the really bad traffic congestion, and the fake facades are going to look bad in 5 more years then yes it is bad. I've already noted the houses in the Greens at Birkdale have already taken on this look.

I agree they could have done a lot worse and made it like the rest of exit 25 but the reality of the situation is that Birkdale Village was constructed for the quick buck and not much else. The people on this website generally advocate good urban development and Birkdale Village is an example of what not to do in a "new urbanist" development.

If you are asking me, then yes, I think you fell for the marketing hype.

[jinkin]

i have to agree with monsoon. my personal feeling is that i'm a little freaked out by these faked-out town cities. i can see the appeal, but it would be too much like living in someone's legoland. montgomery county, maryland has been throwing up a bunch of these "villages", pretend towns are strange things, it would be interesting to do a study on social interactions in such settings.

[glassandsteel]

Thanks for the idea.

[jac7890]

I think its a good exercise to be critical of new developments.

I also think that the expectation of a new development to solve surrounding traffic problems and integrate into a suburban context is a bit unrealistic.

The traffic issues surrounding this new town were certainly there before it was. Essentially, this development is an island in a suburban cesspool.

While more thorough planning (aka more time invested) could have resulted in a better community, this neighborhood is still taking steps in the right direction. Planners do not always have the luxury of a large scale development on a good site. Small steps such as this community can be taken to improve the surroundings. The empty spaces at the edge are also unavoidable. Perhaps this land will respond to the community and integrate in the future. This town is setting a pattern for growth in the area.

While traffic was not made better by this development, it is not made worse. And that is no small thing. People who live here now have the opportunity to walk rather than drive. Their teenagers can work at the malls and not require their parents to drive them. Also, how does a planner integrate a New Urbanist town into the suburban context if there is nothing good worth integrating into?

Your negative pictures show surrounding highways bordering the site. It is again unrealistic to expect the town to abolish existing infrastructure on such a grand scale.

I am an architecture/city planning student in Manitoba, Canada (new to the forum), and I of course prefer urban infill projects to greenfield development --it's essential to be linked via transit corridors--, but I recognize the value of New Urbanist developments in any context.

(I also am shocked that there are no grocery stores in this development. Is this still true? I would hope that retailers would step up and provide such local amenities, perhaps they have already).

Very interesting forum discussions.

[tsoutside]

Santana Row is definitely in San Jose and is a successful development, even in this bad Silicon Valley economy. Even the ridiculously overpriced (even for the Bay Area) rental lofts and apartments seem to be doing well.

Supposedly, San Jose is promoting infill rather than sprawl so it fits in with the general plan and the area around it is a densely developed--though pedestrian unfriendly--shopping district (near the Winchester Mystery House). Foolishly, the streetcar system was not built anywhere near this super-congested area!

Santana Row has a couple of large parking garages (one of which is underground) and surface parking lots but I believe the parking lots are going to be built on as the development expands and more garages will be built. In a way, it has become the "downtown" shopping/entertaiment district that San Jose has lacked for the last 40 years. Ironically, while Santana Row is a thriving recreation of an historic downtown, San Jose's historic, authentic downtown--15 minutes away--has almost no shopping and (in my opinion) lacks good entertaiment options aside from public institutions like the civic auditorium and opera. And all that after the city government spent literally billions of tax dollars to "redevelop" downtown.

By the way, after Santana Row first opened, the developer, Federal Realty, said this was the last project of that type they would build due to the expense. But considering that it's been successful even in this bad economy, I think Federal may eventually backpedal on that statement and develop other similar projects in the future.

ps. I believe Federal also built a "new urbanist" development on the Riverwalk in San Antonio.

I wanted to share with you another project that I thought was interesting: Santana Row...

It is located in San Jose (to the best of my knowledge) and while the above images do not show as much, a careful search on the Internet may reveal a lot of information for the status of this project. It seems to be nice and elegant, and so far I have not seen much of parking lots dominating this development... but I may be wrong.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

[tsoutside]

(I also am shocked that there are no grocery stores in this development.  Is this still true?  I would hope that retailers would step up and provide such local amenities, perhaps they have already). 

Very interesting forum discussions. 

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Hmmm...a grocery store within walking distance. Might not be realistic these days. If people did their shopping on a daily basis it might work. But most people I know buy their groceries once, maybe twice a week so walking home with 6 or 7 large bags of groceries isn't feasible. And we all know how grocery stores feel about taking the carts off their property

[monsoon]

Hmmm...a grocery store within walking distance. Might not be realistic these days. If people did their shopping on a daily basis it might work. But most people I know buy their groceries once, maybe twice a week so walking home with 6 or 7 large bags of groceries isn't feasible. And we all know how grocery stores feel about taking the carts off their property

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

But this is the chicken and the egg problem. People don't shop daily because it is too inconvenient. In traditional villages, people stop at the grocer every day to purchase fresh ingredients for daily cooking. On the other hand that assumes that people cook and most 20 somethings and younger don't know how to do it unless it comes out of a box and goes into a microwave. So I guess it doesn't matter.

[tsoutside]

But this is the chicken and the egg problem.  People don't shop daily because it is too inconvenient.  In traditional villages, people stop at the grocer every day to purchase fresh ingredients for daily cooking.  On the other hand that assumes that people cook and most 20 somethings and younger don't know how to do it unless it comes out of a box and goes into a microwave.  So I guess it doesn't matter.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

HAHA most people I know don't even make time to sit down and eat a meal together any more much less cook a meal! Really, it comes down to a lifestyle change. In Silicon Valley, where I live, people tend to have long commutes (usually because of traffic, not distance) and work long hours so they don't have (or make) time to do daily grocery shopping.

Actually, I'm one of the few people I know who shops for groceries almost every day and when I tell people that they think I'm weird LOL.

Maybe new urbanism needs to ally itself with the slow food movement

[Ron Newman]

I know I posted somewhere else about fold-up, personally-owned shopping carts. They're cheap, they're useful, and they're the solution to this problem (at least in good weather).

[bj42]

I think its a good exercise to be critical of new developments.

I also think that the expectation of a new development to solve surrounding traffic problems and integrate into a suburban context is a bit unrealistic......

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

I'm new to this forum and have read only this thread, but wanted to back up jac7890's comments. We need to make sure to recognize small wins. Changing the world is not easy, and city planners need the support of groups like this, not just their critique. I currently live in Round Rock, TX. an area about 15 miles from downtown Austin experiencing explosive growth much like Huntersville.

Recently I visited Birkdale in person and while I completely agree it's far form perfect, at least they're making an attempt to move in the right direction.

Given a similar situation, Round Rock continues to build expansive "garage in front" suburban neighborhoods that can not be accessed at ALL except by car. They recently completed a large scale shopping area called "La Frontera" (http://www.la-frontera.com/index.html) with ZERO pedestrian accessibility, even within the shopping center. You actually have to drive from store to store or risk getting run over walking across a crowded parking lot.

La Frontera is surrounded by apartment complexes, but you can't get to a single one on foot. Proposals for mass transit such as light rail are consistenly shot down, and the plan is clearly to FACILITATE urban sprawl by extensive highway development. See http://www.texasfreeway.com/austin/Constru...004-07-14.shtml for some images of the surrounding area. Give Huntersville at least a little credit for being interested in making an attempt.

[vdogg]

I'm new to this forum and have read only this thread, but wanted to back up jac7890's comments.  We need to make sure to recognize small wins.  Changing the world is not easy, and city planners need the support of groups like this, not just their critique.  I currently live in Round Rock, TX. an area about 15 miles from downtown Austin experiencing explosive growth much like Huntersville.

Recently I visited Birkdale in person and while I completely agree it's far form perfect, at least they're making an attempt to move in the right direction.

Given a similar situation, Round Rock continues to build expansive "garage in front" suburban neighborhoods that can not be accessed at ALL except by car.  They recently completed a large scale shopping area called "La Frontera" (http://www.la-frontera.com/index.html) with ZERO pedestrian accessibility, even within the shopping center.  You actually have to drive from store to store or risk getting run over walking across a crowded parking lot.

La Frontera is surrounded by apartment complexes, but you can't get to a single one on foot.  Proposals for mass transit such as light rail are consistenly shot down, and the plan is clearly to FACILITATE urban sprawl by extensive highway development.  See http://www.texasfreeway.com/austin/Constru...004-07-14.shtml  for some images of the surrounding area.  Give Huntersville at least a little credit for being interested in making an attempt.

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

Welcome to the forum . It's always good to see a new member come on board. I agree with the comments you've made. Community level support and the support of groups like this one are essential for any movement to succeed. New urbanism won't work everywhere but the ideals and concepts are sound and if it truly catches on, after a long period of time, it may indeed change the world.

[jb4563]

I think the photos and commentary presented by monsoon distort Birkdale Village.

If you go there when people aren't working, the place is rocking with tons of pedestrian traffic and street performers..three times as many in those pics (If you go there during the weekday or right as people are getting off work...it isn't that busy...and that is when those photos look like they were taken).

There has a to be parking lots, but a lot of them are broken up and put between the buildings and hidden. There are some surface lots (pictured), but where would you expect people who don't live in Birkdale to park? Everyone I know goes, there parks, and walk around for hours.

All the traffic on the main roads would be there regardless of whether Birkdale was there or not...that is MAJOR road that carries traffic from Huntersville to Lake Norman.

Birkdale is one of the most successful NUD's I have seen, especially in retail. They actually have stores people want to shop in..both major chains and a few independents (and not insurance agents, Kinko's and other stuff no one really counts as "retail") . They also have a nice mix of families, young professionals, and celebrities (race car drivers) living in the apartments, condos, and housing.

People would complain if they put col-de-sac subdivisions and traditionalstrip malls in, and when developers try to do something nice..they complain.

Is it perfect? No, but its better than the other NUD's I've seen in NC.