9th Street bridge may be named for Rachel Carson

[PghUSA]

Sun, as far as your perspective on Warhol--despite the fact that no one I have ever talked to shares it . . . even remotely--the city has long ago (in concert with the world's art scene) honored him as among the greatest of the latter 20th century.

Pittsburgh dedicated the largest and most comprehensive artist museum to him over a decade ago, and the bridge has been named in his honor for close to a year if not over a year.

Sun if you do feel strongly about stripping the name off the bridge and closing the massive gallery I encourage you to write for its reversal to:

Mayor's Office

414 Grant Street

Pittsburgh, PA 15219

It is pretty much a moot point to debate Warhol on this board since it is already decade old status policy of the city and it's foundations, not even counting that every art expert would readily acknowledge that Warhol was the major force in art for decades.

[blueblackcat]

That is another reason Carson's name shouldn't be on the bridge, she sparked the reactionary religious environmental movement that has done more harm than good.

Funny, you seem to have misquoted me, I hope not intentionally. The ideological movement here would be the liberterians who are dead set against any environmental regulation, and the corporate PR campaigns that feed them their spin.

Tell that to the millions who died. The use of DDT was mismanaged in the past but to allow a genocide to happen in the name of religious environmentalism is taking things to the bloody extreme.

Nobody died as a result of the ban on DDT. People have died because of a lack of cooperation between 3rd world countries in malaria regions, because of unstable governments incapable of maintaining a resolute public health policy, and a severe lack of funds for any kind of public heatlh concerns whatsoever. This was the case before DDT, while DDT was being used, and is still true today. If DDT were still legal you would have malaria and a bunch of extinct predatory bird species, and you cannot prove otherwise unless you can demonstrate how third world governments will all of a sudden get their act together. Millions of people have died not because of government regulation, but because of a LACK of adaquete government regulation.

There are plenty of other diseases out there right now that we could get rid of if correct public health policies were implemented, most important of them being AIDS. The drugs that help lessen their social costs and extend life aren't banned, don't destroy the environment or anything, but we don't allow them to be produced more cheaply when they could be, we choose to promote abstinance rather than safe sex, and various other blunders. But where's the conservative echo chamber calling any of this genocide? Appearantly it's only genocide when the government bans DDT because it harms the environment, but it's not genocide when corporations get to ban generic drugs for various third world diseases via absurd intellectual property claims. This is hypocrisy, obviously, and it's so completely transparent what Liberterians are doing when they pick and choose what they go as far as to label "genocide" based on how it fits into their overall ideology.

[TheGerbil]

Warhol was and is a very influential artist. Go into any modern art museum in the world and I am sure you'll see something by him. I would hardly say he is the Carrot Top of the art world. Not everyone likes his work or his atttitude, which is fine, but you cannot deny he's been very influential and is known around the world. And I have never ever heard anyone say Pittsburgh is lesser in their eyes because we have a museum and bridge dedicated to him. On the contrary, people seem to be pleasantly surprised to learn that he is from here, and the museum attracts people to visit the city.

[Sundodger]

Funny, you seem to have misquoted me, I hope not intentionally. The ideological movement here would be the liberterians who are dead set against any environmental regulation, and the corporate PR campaigns that feed them their spin.

No, the bigger problem is the genocide causing and environmental destroying that the ideology of reactionary religious environmentalism has caused. The human and economic damage due to these reactionaries is doing more harm than good, even for the environment.

Nobody died as a result of the ban on DDT.

Millions died. You can try to spin it any way you please but it doesn't change what actually happened.

Appearantly it's only genocide when the government bans DDT because it harms the environment, but it's not genocide when corporations get to ban generic drugs for various third world diseases via absurd intellectual property claims.

See, you are demonstrating why the reactionaries are so dangerous. Without intellectual property rights, the creators of these drugs would be out of business. The problem with reactionaries is they deal in absolutes and not want to strive for progress. Silent Spring is a classic example.

And I have never ever heard anyone say Pittsburgh is lesser in their eyes because we have a museum and bridge dedicated to him.

Pittsburgh is a lesser city for naming a bridge after that hack artist. There, now you have heard someone say it. I have no problem with the Museum, that's great. The Carrot Top of Art bridge is something else.

[blueblackcat]

No, the bigger problem is the genocide causing and environmental destroying that the ideology of reactionary religious environmentalism has caused. The human and economic damage due to these reactionaries is doing more harm than good, even for the environment.

Millions died. You can try to spin it any way you please but it doesn't change what actually happened.

See, you are demonstrating why the reactionaries are so dangerous. Without intellectual property rights, the creators of these drugs would be out of business. The problem with reactionaries is they deal in absolutes and not want to strive for progress. Silent Spring is a classic example.

Pittsburgh is a lesser city for naming a bridge after that hack artist. There, now you have heard someone say it. I have no problem with the Museum, that's great. The Carrot Top of Art bridge is something else.

Firstly, I find your replies inadequate and feel that you are just refusing to concede mine (and our) points. And rather than finding a competent argument against what I said, you are completely going around it by derriding it as "spin."

I don't plan to argue about this after this post, and so you can have the last word if you'd like. It's too far off topic already. But even the very term "intellectual property" is an oxymoron. It is an amalgomated repository for completely unrelated governmental policies that is made to look like something completely different than the sum of it's incompatible parts. It's a myth, and there is no mechanism for innovation that is in any way protected by all this corporate idea-mongering. As a matter of fact the increasing intellectual property controls demonstratably hurt innovation and play into the filthy hands of monopolies. It's so contentious for you to say that I am in some way reactionary by pointing to this dubious IP argument. You're attacking me personally while you're standing on thin ice. It only further enforces the point I originally made that liberterians pick and choose to label things depending on how it fits into their ideology, which was not meant as a personal attack on you in any way, but you went ahead and personally demonstrated exactly what I was talking about. And there I was writing the last post, thinking, he's probably going to make me feel ridiculously foolish if he just says "You are wrong, I feel that the AIDS epidemic *is* a preventable genocide, too." Thanks for demonstrating my point for me.

[tooluther]

I think they should hold the name for now...so they can name it after me later

[PghUSA]

Sun if you are concerned about the Warhol bridge . . . did you receive a reply from the Mayor's office yet?

The bridge after all has been the policy status of the city for months (if not a year) now, as I have mentioned before Warhol is pretty much a moot point for discussion, unless you are talking to the mayor's office on it.

If one wishes to discuss Warhol or their correspondence with the Mayor's office on renaming his bridge lets leave that for a seperate thread. I think it is the consensus that this topic be about the lighting, decor and naming of the 9th .

[Sundodger]

Firstly, I find your replies inadequate and feel that you are just refusing to concede mine (and our) points.

I don't concede your absolutism points. History is history and we can look back and see what actually happened. The absolute banning of DDT was mistake that cost millions of lives. The elite, reactionary environmental movement is deadly one.

And rather than finding a competent argument against what I said, you are completely going around it by derriding it as "spin."

Again, the banning of DDT was a mistake, we know that now. But the reactionary religious movement is trying to spin this too. Did you know the religious environmental movement wanted an absolute ban on chlorine too? Just imagine how many people that idiotic, absolutist move would have killed.

But even the very term "intellectual property" is an oxymoron. It is an amalgomated repository for completely unrelated governmental policies that is made to look like something completely different than the sum of it's incompatible parts. It's a myth, and there is no mechanism for innovation that is in any way protected by all this corporate idea-mongering. [/quotr]

Wow, you are way off on the deep end. Intellectual property rights protect people's time, energy, and innovation. Without that protection, you can kiss most innovation good-bye, especially in expensive fields such as medicine research and development.

As a matter of fact the increasing intellectual property controls demonstratably hurt innovation and play into the filthy hands of monopolies. It's so contentious for you to say that I am in some way reactionary by pointing to this dubious IP argument.

It isn't a dubious argument. Taking away IP rights will destroy the profit motive of innovation which will eventually lead to less innovation and progress.

You're attacking me personally while you're standing on thin ice.

I am attacking your ideas that have already drowned under the broken ice of reality. Much of this leftist religious ideology you spout has proven not to work and in many cases, like DDT, very deadly.

[Sundodger]

Sun if you are concerned about the Warhol bridge . . . did you receive a reply from the Mayor's office yet?

It is not my city. I could care less if the city of Pittsburgh makes the mistake of naming a bridge after a hack artist and a person who caused a reactionary genocide. I just wanted to add my $.02 because these are awful names that can't help the city any.

[TheGerbil]

This editorial was in the paper today: http://post-gazette.com/pg/06112/684148-109.stm

It's interesting partly because it talks about the connection between DDT and Malaria.

[PghUSA]

^^G, very good find, especially the first few sentences of the article where they state how some young morons mistake her legacy as someone to heap blame on for the sins of others.

Wouldn't expect a city such as the emerald one to "get" the facts straight, not to pick on anyones hometown but for a "human rights" city that hosts the leader of the largest inhumane dictatorship this past week and doesn't give ONE PEEP, not even one watered down politically correct HINT that human rights abuses are taking place and should stop, is the very definition of hypocrisy.

To have a monument to Lenin who oversaw the creation of a multimillion human death machine 100 years ago, and was arrested by several governments prior to that (glad someone could see his destructive potential), adds to how legitimate any statement IS NOT coming from that part of the country.

Everyone is entitled to their thoughts on this matter, but if you are going to pay tribute to the Adolf Hitler of the urals and zip your lips like a good poodle when the Vlad Dracula of the 21st century comes to visit but then make a woman who wanted to green up the earth seem like the devil incarnate, you have surrendered all respect for any point you might at one time have had.

I won't even go after the fact that up there SB XL has more conspiracy theories then JFKs death. Put the coffee down and back away slowly from the double mocha latte.

[blueblackcat]

This editorial was in the paper today: http://post-gazette.com/pg/06112/684148-109.stm

It's interesting partly because it talks about the connection between DDT and Malaria.

Thanks Gerbill! Needless to say there are countless articles and research papers out there that diffuse the DDT myths. But the people who choose to continue spreading the misinformation will always do so because their whole ideology would be contradicted if they laid the myths to rest. I'm really happy the bridge is finally named for her.

[tooluther]

someone mentioned earlier in the thread ( I think, I'm too burnt our from school work to bother double checking) that its too bad the 9th street bridge doesn't go anywhere on the northshore...the Clemente bridge ends with pnc park, and the AW bridge leads to his museum.

Maybe as part of the 8th street block project they can include a memorial or a small museum of the environmental movement to be included in the cultural district...that would continue the theme.

[PghUSA]

^^Great idea, but why does it have to be "small" make it very big and awe inspiring, Clemente or Honus Wagner or Mayor Caliguiri like in it's structure.

Wasn't on one of the episodes of the West Wing that they mentioned how out of the thousands of statues in American only a dozen or so (they had the specific stats) honor real-life (not statue of Liberty or top of Congress dome or NY City Hall "goddess of freedom/liberty/justice" types) women? Pittsburgh should at least honor Rachel this way.

[tooluther]

"small" because the plans for the 8th street block are probably finished by all 4 finalists (yes, I have a fav.) and so making a major change would be tough, and the equity finances behind the projects not be so big on valuable land going to memorials.

However, to expand on my idea, not regulated by size...I think the most obvious memorial to the env. movement and Pittsburgh's role in it would be a park that marks major moments in Pittsburgh's clean up history and how we've contributed to the global env. movement. Some things that could be mentioned would be

-Largest s.f. of LEED certified buildings in the country

-first BASS Masters tourney held in an urban area

-obviously renaissance I and II and the air clean ups

-Point state park construction

etc etc etc

[PghUSA]

Nice idea T,

I also like that idea (I had forgot that part about the Bassmaster classic first).

I was also wondering if the city could actually put the monument on the central biz district side of the bridge, I forget for the moment whats over there but to my memory there is parking and some lots around there, perfect set up for a river boardering moment possibly spanning the topside of Duquesne Blvd.

[TheGerbil]

I like the idea of a park that memorializes the city's clean-up efforts over time.

I am picturing a statue of Carson surrounded by a circular path. As you walk along the path there will be signs and displays about how the city has cleaned up. You'd begin with a section about steel mills and "Hell with the lid off" and end at a display showcasing our "green" buildings.

Then of course around the statue itself would be information about Carson and everything she did.

[tooluther]

That's pretty much exactly what I was thinking. Unfourtunatly there corners of ft. duq blvd and 9th both have buildings on them....but I'm not sure if the one in the 8th street block would be kept or not. I'm pretty sure something will change at the corner of 9th at penn

[PghUSA]

^^Nice image there Gerbil, I like Too's idea and your expansion on it, someplace that is more a living tribute to Carson's and the cities progress on enviromental issues.

Gerbil, you should really submit that to someone with the city or county, that is an excellent proposal.

[UrbaniDesDev]

There is a spot along fort Duquesne Blvd @ 9th Street. That section of the park that rises above where Fort Duquesne Blvd meets the 10th street bypass that is need of a purpose. It's an odd, triangular shaped space that seems a bit unresolved and would make a great place for a monument of some sort. It is a prominant location due to its perch above the intersection. I had wished they had sloped it down to the intersection from 9th Street to promote more foot traffic along there, but now it is a bit of a dead end.

Tooluther, do you have any links to the proposals for the 8th Street block development? I would love to see them

[tooluther]

There is a link to follow the progress somewhere on the cultural trust's site. They are down to four finalists. Two of the teams are local, and two are from out of town. Each of them consists of a developer, a national architect, a local architect, and an equity firm for financing. The two local development teams are Trek Development, and Trammell Crow/No Wall (No wall is the famous/infamous Eve Picker)

They will announce the winner in late May (the 29th I think)...its going to be a HUGE project and its going to be high end. The high price points are probably why Millcraft's proposal for 5/forbes concentrates on some lower price point stuff (the high end is pretty clost to tapped out)

[TheGerbil]

I highly doubt it, but wouldn't it be great if work started on that 8th Street development in time for the ASG? Or at least if they put up signs with pictures of the winning proposal, so visitors would know what is coming.

I'd also like to see some signs on the North Side about upcoming development there, including the subway extension. Even if there aren't a lot of cranes in the sky, I want visitors to know things are planned. It would do wonders for the city's image I think.

[tooluther]

Cultural District River Front Development

Found the link...It would be nice to have something going by the ASG but since there probably aren't going to be any big name tennants (unless a hotel is involved) there probably won't be anything inparticular to advertise for a while

[TheGerbil]

I was thinking more of just a drawing of the way the site will look when finished. I see them sometimes on sites where work is being done or going to begin soon. It would just be a nice thing for passers-by to see so they know something is in the works.

Thanks for the link!