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Charlotte MLB Team Speculation


ncguy06

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Tampa Bay MSA has 2.82MM and Charlotte CSA has 2.44MM as of 2011 for roughly similar sized areas (45 mile radius).  It wouldn't surpise me if the 30-mile radius was correct, especially if you are talking driving distance, due to where Tropicana field sites in downtown St. Pete.  Eastern and north Tamp suburbs and anything east of Tampa Bay are all outside that 30 mile zone (and anyone living more than 5 miles west is acquatic), while in Charlotte you are essentially getting everything from Kings Mountain to Kannapolis and Rock Hill to Troutman. 

 

Also, I wonder what % of St Pete and Clearwater "residents" are even living there during baseball season.  I suspect most of the 182 days they are away from "home" is during NY Yankee and Met season.

 

I don't really think Charlotte is a better baseball market than Tampa Bay, or any existing market.  Charlotte within 10 years could probably support a team I would think as metro area surpasses 3MM, but if I were MLB, I would think Portland is the optimal place to move a team to right now. 

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Tampa Bay MSA has 2.82MM and Charlotte CSA has 2.44MM as of 2011 for roughly similar sized areas (45 mile radius). 

 

Uhm, Not exactly, and let's not play apples to oranges.  

 

You can't imply Tampa and Charlotte have the same figures population wise but use two different population measures. (Charlotte's whole CSA , only Tampa's MSA).

Charlotte's CSA is made up of Charlotte, Gastonia, Concord, Statesteville, Moorseville, Salisbury, Shelby, Lancaster, Albemarle and Chester - a pretty far range of city's and municipalities across a very large swatch of land (with a-lot of rural area in between many of those municipalities), Tampa in the same reasonable CMSA (which would be a more accurate comparison) would be the Tampa Bay Area also known as the Tampa-St. Petersburg-Clearwater MSA which is the 4+ million population number I cited earlier.

 

EDIT: I also think what's being missed in this whole discussion of Charlotte and Tampa comparison is that Tropicana field is not in Tampa but in St. Petersburg.  This is why the Team management want the new stadium closer to the population center in Tampa.

 

 

Edited by Urbanity
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atlrvr wasn't confusing the different measures, he was using them as they pertained to physical area, in terms of radius.  We have a population base here that may not be included in the MSA, or even CSA, but is still close enough to conveniently attend games and perhaps become long term fans.  Perhaps.

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atlrvr wasn't confusing the different measures, he was using them as they pertained to physical area, in terms of radius.  We have a population base here that may not be included in the MSA, or even CSA, but is still close enough to conveniently attend games and perhaps become long term fans.  Perhaps.

I would contend that it is an individual, not a city, that would determine where a team plays.  An individual with really big bucks!

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I have friends that live in both Tampa and Orlando. One thing they told me is that the biggest deterrent to fans is the location of the stadium in St Pete. I think because of where it's located, only 600,000 people are within that 20-30 minute commute as someone mentioned above. But the MSA is more like 4M for the the Tampa/St Pete area, as mentioned as well. A few years back, I did some consulting work in Bradenton, FL which is south of the Tampa airport. In route to the airport I did drive past the Rays Stadium and could tell just from the interstate what a pain it is to get there. Definitely not good planning on the part of developers when they built the stadium. Whether or not there is a better location in St. Petersburg to put it, I don't know. Though I would imagine if they were able to put the stadium on the Tampa side, minus the political fiasco that seems apparent with the stadium today, the franchise might have a fighting chance. If Charlotte were to ever get a MLB team, I'm not sure where you would even put the stadium since BB&T Field will be taking up an obvious spot. Maybe somewhere near Carowinds or near UNC-Charlotte campus off 485. Either of which would be a better spot than Tropicana Field, IMO. Transit options would also have to be considered.

Edited by wend28
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I'm not a "fan" of suburban stadiums, or ones simply slapped off of an interstate exit where there was available space, there are too many like that and they have no connection to the city as a whole or it's neighborhoods.  I don't think it would need to be inside of the 277 loop, but close to city center in an existing neighborhood would be ideal.

 

The idea of near/at UNCC is intriguing though, not due to students = attendance, students don't typically have this level of expendable cash, but because it seems thematically similar/relevant, to me anyway, can't explain why.  If this was ever the case still think the design is critical, ie no sea of parking surrounding the stadium, instead street-side retail, things that make it feel a part of the community.  Which I don't think UNCC has much a sense of, but maybe it could help create this.

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I'm not a "fan" of suburban stadiums, or ones simply slapped off of an interstate exit where there was available space, there are too many like that and they have no connection to the city as a whole or it's neighborhoods.  I don't think it would need to be inside of the 277 loop, but close to city center in an existing neighborhood would be ideal.

 

The idea of near/at UNCC is intriguing though, not due to students = attendance, students don't typically have this level of expendable cash, but because it seems thematically similar/relevant, to me anyway, can't explain why.  If this was ever the case still think the design is critical, ie no sea of parking surrounding the stadium, instead street-side retail, things that make it feel a part of the community.  Which I don't think UNCC has much a sense of, but maybe it could help create this.

I agree that suburban stadiums seem dull. I've been to several and would never hope it on an any team. Having a freeway exit basically dedicated to a stadium reeks of pre and post game boredom. Urban Stadiums just have a greater vibe. Even the Cowboys new stadium, as technologically advanced as it is, just seems kind of in the middle of nowhere. A baseball stadium in UC wouldn't be so bad, considering that it would be probably many years away after the the light rail has already made it up there. As long as public transportation is accessible, I think the stadium could be anywhere along the blue line.

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I'm not necessarily a fan of suburban stadiums either. I was actually out in Arlington, TX last year and went to a Rangers game there (in about 800 degree heat). It's right across from the Cowboys Stadium. They have a lot nice amenities inside the stadium, but there is virtually nothing else there outside of it. We parked in a hotel parking lot (after paying $25) and walked into the stadium from there. Definitely not the same feel as a Fenway Park in Boston, AT&T Park in San Fran or other urban MLB stadiums. 

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^^^MLB could work on the Knights site if the proper infrastructure improvements were in place, and the underlying structure was built to handle the extra weight of a larger stadium.

 

A modern MLB stadium typically will occupy a footprint of approximately  650 ft by 650 ft.  The current plot for the Knights is about 475 ft by 725 ft.  It would be possible to build the stadium over the street, or even tunnel Graham street under the stadium, however the underlying support structure would have to be sufficient for such a structure.  Assuming the underlying structure has the integrity to support the increased weight of an upper deck, there is no fundamental reason from a engineering standpoint that would preclude said construction.  There is even some precedent for such construction; some of the seating in Fenway Park is built over the street, one of the design proposals for the San Jose MLB stadium included Left field seating cantilevered over the street, and parts of Target field are built above walkways and plazas.  Those features  are all minor portions of their respective stadiums, however, "over-road" construction is certainly within the realm of possibility.  In Atlanta, there is a skyscraper in Buckhead that is built above a freeway and a Marta line.  From my understanding, the underlying support structure for MLB expansion will not be designed into BB&T stadium. 

 

The most likely scenario, under which an MLB stadium would be built on that parcel, would be to move Graham Street approximately 150-200 ft to the northwest of it's current alignment which would allow for the stadium to be expanded to an appropriate size for MLB.  Under such a scenario, BB&T stadium would still have to be razed and rebuilt due to the lack of structural support designed in the stadium.  This is why I have such a problem with the stadium as it is designed.  I do not have a problem with the Knights choosing that design; it is cheaper, and fundamentally, as a business, the Knights have to be concerned with their bottom line.  I do fault the local government authorities for not having the foresight to mandate that MLB structural elements be placed within the design as a prerequisite for the reception of any taxpayer funds, even if the design was more expensive.  If an MLB team did choose to play in Charlotte, the lower deck could be kept in place and the Minor League mezzanine levels could be replaced with MLB appropriate mezzanine levels and an upper deck.

Edited by cltbwimob
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  • 2 months later...

MLB is a really tough sport to support.  There are just so many home games that it takes a lot of people and corporate sponsors to make it work.  It isn't like NFL where there are only 8 home games (plus a couple of pre-season games).  There are literally ten times that many games (over 80).  

 

At this time I just don't think Charlotte is quite ready, but I don't think any other city is really ready either.  I will say that I think that Charlotte is one of the top three or four locations that is closest to being able to support a new (or relocated) MLB team.  

 

As other posters have noted, typical stadium life these days is unfortunately only 20-25 years, so maybe by that time Charlotte will have grown enough to support MLB.

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Uhm, Not exactly, and let's not play apples to oranges.

You can't imply Tampa and Charlotte have the same figures population wise but use two different population measures. (Charlotte's whole CSA , only Tampa's MSA).

Charlotte's CSA is made up of Charlotte, Gastonia, Concord, Statesteville, Moorseville, Salisbury, Shelby, Lancaster, Albemarle and Chester - a pretty far range of city's and municipalities across a very large swatch of land (with a-lot of rural area in between many of those municipalities), Tampa in the same reasonable CMSA (which would be a more accurate comparison) would be the Tampa Bay Area also known as the Tampa-St. Petersburg-Clearwater MSA which is the 4+ million population number I cited earlier.

EDIT: I also think what's being missed in this whole discussion of Charlotte and Tampa comparison is that Tropicana field is not in Tampa but in St. Petersburg. This is why the Team management want the new stadium closer to the population center in Tampa.

There is not 4 million people in Tampa metro only 2.8 million check census stats please on there

websitehttp://www.census.gov/popest/data/metro/totals/2012/index.html

Edited by DOLCE&GABBANA
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  • 2 years later...

We now have the triple A Knights uptown. It's a beautiful ballpark and the attendance is great. However, this was a huge mistake by Charlotte. MLB will be expanding soon. The first choice from what I have been reading is Portland and Las Vegas with Charlotte third (or second because only one of those will be picked)

 

I am a Cubs fan and I read the Cubs message board daily. A topic about this came up a couple weeks ago. I joined in during the middle and the entire message board agree that Portland and Charlotte should be the top two choices. This is coming from Chicago fans! I explained to them about the Charlotte Knights and how Charlotte is not getting a team until at least 2030 because of this...they still insist Charlotte is the best choice.

 

Mark my words...Charlotte will regret this choice. This opens up Raleigh for getting MLB. Please don't even start with how Charlotte cannot support MLB because they can...so can Raleigh. Everybody on the Cubs board talked very highly of Charlotte and how we can easily support MLB.

 

The article about expansion was on ESPN a couple weeks ago, sorry I cannot get a link. But Tampa Bay is going to have to make a choice here shortly about a new ballpark. Many believe they will be moving...to NC. If not, we will have to wait for expansion and Portland is #1. We are not far behind.

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We now have the triple A Knights uptown. It's a beautiful ballpark and the attendance is great. However, this was a huge mistake by Charlotte. MLB will be expanding soon. The first choice from what I have been reading is Portland and Las Vegas with Charlotte third (or second because only one of those will be picked)

 

I am a Cubs fan and I read the Cubs message board daily. A topic about this came up a couple weeks ago. I joined in during the middle and the entire message board agree that Portland and Charlotte should be the top two choices. This is coming from Chicago fans! I explained to them about the Charlotte Knights and how Charlotte is not getting a team until at least 2030 because of this...they still insist Charlotte is the best choice.

 

Mark my words...Charlotte will regret this choice. This opens up Raleigh for getting MLB. Please don't even start with how Charlotte cannot support MLB because they can...so can Raleigh. Everybody on the Cubs board talked very highly of Charlotte and how we can easily support MLB.

 

The article about expansion was on ESPN a couple weeks ago, sorry I cannot get a link. But Tampa Bay is going to have to make a choice here shortly about a new ballpark. Many believe they will be moving...to NC. If not, we will have to wait for expansion and Portland is #1. We are not far behind.

I hope Raleigh gets it! That'd be great!

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I know Ricky but I want Charlotte to get it Because Raleigh will screw everything up by putting a stadium in the suburbs...uggg...Imagine MLB uptown with that awesome skyline in the background! I gave up on Raleigh years ago.

I'magine it. "Research Triangle BallPARK"

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If MLB were to expand, I highly doubt it's in the Carolinas. They want a team back in Montreal and probably Mexico, San Antonio or another west coast city like Portland. Personally, I don't think the Knights Stadium was a mistake at all. Look at all the development that popped up around it. It's affordable entertainment compared to what MLB would cost (Panthers and Hornets already cost enough). I know Charlotte is always a trendy city to talk expansion on message boards, but most of the people that do talk about it there don't understand the market here as well as they think. Most people that are close to MLB don't look at us in the same light. We're also already heavily invested in the Panthers, Hornets, Knights and Checkers... MLB is a very expensive sport to support. 35,000+ seat stadium. 81 games. Where is the local income to support it? Just don't see it. 

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Plus, I think I remember reading something a while back that said MLB requires the highest per capita income compared to the other major leagues. I wouldn't be shocked to find out that after further scrutiny MLB decides that available cash in the market is rather diluted.

I agree that Knights ballpark was a perfect move. The city needs sports entertainment for all levels of income. On the more expensive end we have the Panthers and the Hornets and at the other end we now have Knights, Hounds, and Independence. I do think Charlotte is showing to be a pretty healthy sports market and no doubt execs from some leagues are watching us closely, but I say don't force things like this. Let's enjoy the amazing selection we have now and let it all build up organically. Oh, and there is no way in hell Charlotte residents are gonna be cool with building a major league ballpark. That idea will be shot down in an instant.

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Meanwhile the Knights will be welcoming its 1,000,000th visitor. That's a nice boost in revenue for uptown.

Yep, despite it being a minor league team, I bet uptown business benefit more from the Knights than they do the Hornets or Panthers. They put 8-10,000 people in Uptown 50+ more times every year.

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I don't really have a dog in this fight (Knights are fine with me), but I don't get why is there so much angst about 'making a mistake' with the current ball park?

The city and county only have $15 million (?) sunk into the current park plus a sweetheart ($1 per year) ground lease to the team. That was a pretty small price to pay for all of the development in 3rd ward. If MLB really wants to be in Charlotte we could 1) get a stadium built at 'Charlotte Pipe Yards' or the panthers practice field (combined with a cap / plaza over the railroad to connect it to uptown) or Bryant Park combined with LRT / Streetcar and 2 ) remove the existing stadium and make it part of Bearden (which I beleive was the original plan for the park). That would give us an urban stadium with plenty of space and more greenspace downtown to boot.

I dunno, I just like to drink beer outside.

Edited by kermit
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