Charlotte MLB Team Speculation

[Scoopbth]

HB2, however, affects everything.  If this thing is still on the books around the time any league is deciding of expansion, it will definitely be a factor. Charlotte has reached such a tipping point and I worry everyday that the fiasco that has been HB2 has pulled us back from that tipping point. 

[kermit]

^ Yes, it goes without saying (and SI mentions that as an issue as well). But lets try not to contaminate another thread with that virus.

While I am not thrilled with the prospect of trading downtown AAA for MLB somewhere else (everyone has been clear that BBT ballpark is not retrofittable) this does have me daydreaming about potential MLB ballpark sites. Many of our old options are not off the table due to the inexorable march of development (e.g. Scaleybark)

I think everyone would prefer a skyline view in the outfield, so that rules out anything to the east (e.g. Sugar Creek, Optimist Park, Independence etc.) due to sunlight in the batters eyes. The ballpark can't be too far from a robust street / interstate grid to move traffic in and out and its gotta be walkable to rail transit. Finally it needs to be in a place that can provide an urban environment around it, no one wants to go to a ballpark out in a field anymore. The sites that pop into my head for this are:

• Brookhill (Remount / S Tryon): Its desperately in need of redevelopment.  Lets ignore issues of 50 year ground leases and displacement of vulnerable populations for now. It is (barely) walkable to the Blue Line and the area around it will certainly explode with vibrancy if given the right catalyst. Also very good access from 77.
• Charlotte Pipe (Morehead st):  A no brainer, but the creation of even more of a stadium district has significant downsides
• Wilkenson / Morehead / Sutte triangle: Great auto access, great views, would require transit expansion (but completely doable)
• Southern Metals site (Donald Ross at NS tracks): Awful auto access, not much ped potential due to railroad. Could help encourage west LRT route
• Airport Village site (proposed Harris mixed use project): Far too suburban for me but the opportunity is certainly there for greenfield urbanism. Bonus views of airport operations from ballpark
• Kmart shopping center (Freedom drive): Not much hope of walkability or transit, but decent views and access from I85
• Southern Concrete (Berryhill, Tuckaseegee, State st). Tremendous potential for a walkable neighborhood, hopeless auto access. Transit is totally doable with my oft-requested reactivation of the P&N tracks.
• Panthers practice fields: Is it big enough?
• Music Factory parking lots: Lets demo the avid exchange building now!

Sorry, tons of work to do, you guys get the brunt of my pointless procrastinations.

[cltbwimob]

59 minutes ago, DMann said:

Look at the poor attendance in Cleveland and project that here.  MLB is probably priced at least 2x minor league pricing, and probably more.  Empty stadiums are not fun.

I don't get why everyone points to Cleveland's attendance woes and projects that onto Charlotte.  Charlotte's other "peer" MLB cities-cities such as Pittsburgh, Cincinatti, Milwaukee with similar populations, GDP, TV markets-all did quite well in terms of attendance last year; why is no one willing to project those city's experiences onto Charlotte?  For some reason people on this forum seem to be vehemently opposed to Charlotte getting an MLB team and like to cherry pick Cleveland as their example of what will happen if MLB ever comes to Charlotte when in reality no one has a clue what will and will not happen.  The reality is some of the markets that, by all accounts, should be able to provide ample support to an MLB franchise have some of the worst attendance numbers whereas some of the markets that are said to be the most over saturated small markets are fairing quite well in terms of attendance.  Cherry picking a single data point and using that one point as the basis of an entire argument really is the antithesis of data-based argumentation.  It's similar, in some senses, to the lines of logic our esteemed legislature uses to justify laws like HB2.  There really is no good data to prove that Charlotte will be the abject failure as an MLB city that everyone seems to think it will be, just conjecture and supposition from Charlotte "boosters" such as Michael Smith and the UP crowd.

48 minutes ago, ricky_davis_fan_21 said:

I mean check out the Yankees game I went to yesterday. It was maybe 35-40% full by 4th inning. This is the Yankees. 

It's still very early in the season (usually early attendance in MLB is scarce) and impossible to make any inferences about what Charlotte will experience if it becomes an MLB city based on this picture.  Should I post a picture of the crowd at the KC-Baltimore game as a counterpoint to what you are suggesting by posting this picture?  

[SentioVenia]

Baseball is a dying sport.  MLS FTW!

[cltbwimob]

33 minutes ago, kermit said:

^ Yes, it goes without saying (and SI mentions that as an issue as well). But lets try not to contaminate another thread with that virus.

While I am not thrilled with the prospect of trading downtown AAA for MLB somewhere else (everyone has been clear that BBT ballpark is not retrofittable) this does have me daydreaming about potential MLB ballpark sites. Many of our old options are not off the table due to the inexorable march of development (e.g. Scaleybark)

I think everyone would prefer a skyline view in the outfield, so that rules out anything to the east (e.g. Sugar Creek, Optimist Park, Independence etc.) due to sunlight in the batters eyes. The ballpark can't be too far from a robust street / interstate grid to move traffic in and out and its gotta be walkable to rail transit. Finally it needs to be in a place that can provide an urban environment around it, no one wants to go to a ballpark out in a field anymore. The sites that pop into my head for this are:

• Brookhill (Remount / S Tryon): Its desperately in need of redevelopment.  Lets ignore issues of 50 year ground leases and displacement of vulnerable populations for now. It is (barely) walkable to the Blue Line and the area around it will certainly explode with vibrancy if given the right catalyst. Also very good access from 77.
• Charlotte Pipe (Morehead st):  A no brainer, but the creation of even more of a stadium district has significant downsides
• Wilkenson / Morehead / Sutte triangle: Great auto access, great views, would require transit expansion (but completely doable)
• Southern Metals site (Donald Ross at NS tracks): Awful auto access, not much ped potential due to railroad. Could help encourage west LRT route
• Airport Village site (proposed Harris mixed use project): Far too suburban for me but the opportunity is certainly there for greenfield urbanism. Bonus views of airport operations from ballpark
• Kmart shopping center (Freedom drive): Not much hope of walkability or transit, but decent views and access from I85
• Southern Concrete (Berryhill, Tuckaseegee, State st). Tremendous potential for a walkable neighborhood, hopeless auto access. Transit is totally doable with my oft-requested reactivation of the P&N tracks.
• Panthers practice fields: Is it big enough?
• Music Factory parking lots: Lets demo the avid exchange building now!

Sorry, tons of work to do, you guys get the brunt of my pointless procrastinations.

The attached picture is a solution I proposed to the question "where would an MLB stadium go?"  Tear down BB&T and the forgettable Woodfield apartments and build the stadium on the four-block site highlighted.  

[kermit]

^ yea, that makes more sense that the crap I was spouting. Good call.

It did occur to me that, regardless of what MLB wants, this is all just an academic exercise. We just don't have the money necessary to build a new MLB ballpark.

The state made it clear with the Panthers renovation budget that they were not willing to share any stadium costs. The city theoretically has the option of increasing the hotel tax, but the RWNJ in Raleigh would certainly find a way to block that effort. Beyond that I just don't see a source of cash for at least half the cost of a new MLB park, I am guessing about $400 million. There would also be substantial infrastructure costs. Honestly I would wage jihad if the city 'found' that money while still himing and hawing about money for phase three of the streetcar, the Silver line, cross county trail etc.

While I would go to tons of MLB games and zero MLS games I do think MLS in a refurbed Memorial Stadium would give the city significantly more bang for buck so that seems like a higher priority to me.

It seems like our only hope would be to find an investor willing to pay for the entire stadium, and this seems unlikely given the size of our market and the questions surrounding it (valid or not). It also seems like the PSL model of stadium finance would be difficult due to a) the number of games in a baseball season, b) the fact that baseball season always conflicts with at least one family vacation and c) resale prices for Panthers PSLs have not made us more fond of them.

Edited April 23, 2016 by kermit

[SgtCampsalot]

8 minutes ago, kermit said:

Honestly I would wage jihad if the city 'found' that money while still hemming and hawing about money for phase three of the streetcar, the Silver line, cross county trail etc.

But this seems to still be the way the city government's hive-mind thinks. There's always "enough" money when something has enough "wow" factor. 

[go_vertical]

Personally I would prefer the Knights over any MLB team. Now I don't hate the game, but baseball has never been all that interesting to me. Having said that I have been to three games at BB&T and those are the ONLY baseball games I have ever been to. I'm sure I will go to more because despite not really paying close attention to what was happening on the field I had a fun time. Hell, my first game was with four other people who had also never attended a live baseball game.

The entire point of saying all of this is had Charlotte went majors I'm about 95% sure I would have never stepped foot into that stadium unless a friend had said "hey, I have an extra ticket. Wanna go?". The lower cost and more casual vibe AAA provides can draw in many people that probably wouldn't consider an MLB game.

As I've said before, I think this city is well on its way to becoming a quality sports town. Obviously the Panthers and Hornets are giving us a quality product, MLB seems to be knocking on our door (and if not I'm still excited about the Independence in a renovated Memorial), and from what I understand the Hounds have a respectable following. I just think the Knights are a perfect fit in Charlotte's sports landscape and I would hate to see that cannibalized for something that costs substantially more.

[CLTProductions]

People are absolutely INSANE for thinking a Charlotte MLB would prosper let alone exist. We struggle with NBA, not a chance in hell we could support a baseball team. I will take a 80-90% filled 10k minor stadium over a 30% filled 40k major stadium (yes, I know this is more people, not the point) any day. 

MLB makes 0 sense in CLT, just doesn't, sorry folks.

[cltbwimob]

8 minutes ago, Jayvee said:

People are absolutely INSANE for thinking a Charlotte MLB would prosper let alone exist. We struggle with NBA, not a chance in hell we could support a baseball team. I will take a 80-90% filled 10k minor stadium over a 30% filled 40k major stadium (yes, I know this is more people, not the point) any day. 

MLB makes 0 sense in CLT, just doesn't, sorry folks.

Once again conjecture and supposition based on absolute lack of data. You do realize that the hornets back in 97-98 timeframe were drawing 24000ish per game when Charlotte was half the size it is now.  The Hornets point has very little relevance to the conversation as there can be many other things to explain attendance troubles besides just inability to support a team.

Edited April 23, 2016 by cltbwimob

[jednc]

1 hour ago, cltbwimob said:

Once again conjecture and supposition based on absolute lack of data. You do realize that the hornets back in 97-98 timeframe were drawing 24000ish per game when Charlotte was half the size it is now.  The Hornets point has very little relevance to the conversation as there can be many other things to explain attendance troubles besides just inability to support a team.

I'm guessing he was 10 and sitting in Ohio when the Hornet's were setting NBA attendance records, so no, he doesn't realize that.

[15895]

I'm very skeptical of MLB. I rather see MLS at Memorial Stadium. It also seems like a safer bet

[CLTProductions]

12 hours ago, jednc said:

I'm guessing he was 10 and sitting in Ohio when the Hornet's were setting NBA attendance records, so no, he doesn't realize that.

I do realize that but it's 2016 not the 90s. The Indians set all kinds of attendance records then too and have the worst attendance in the league now. You can think Charlotte could support an MLB team, you're just wrong. Would it be cool? Sure, I guess. MLS makes more sense 

Edited April 24, 2016 by Jayvee

[cltbwimob]

1 hour ago, Jayvee said:

I do realize that but it's 2016 not the 90s. The Indians set all kinds of attendance records then too and have the worst attendance in the league now. You can think Charlotte could support an MLB team, you're just wrong. Would it be cool? Sure, I guess. MLS makes more sense 

Whoa! Step aside Mr. Manfred, Jayvee has spoken.  Despite the fact that you are the commissioner of Major League Baseball and despite the fact you said that Charlotte was on a short list of possible expansion cities, we have our own experts on this forum that would tell you you are wasting your time by even thinking of Charlotte as an expansion city.  Now I know you're thinking you are the commissioner of MLB and likely an expert on the business of baseball so you would know whether or not Charlotte could support a team.  Trust me, these guys have presented some pretty compelling evidence as to why Charlotte can't support the MLB, specifically, that Charlotte can't support the MLB.  Now you, being a lawyer by trade and skilled in the art of argumentation, might look at the above and say that's not evidence, that's just the claim.  You'd be wrong; that is the claim for sure, but it is also the evidence.  Don't you see the beauty in the argument that Charlotte can't support MLB because Charlotte can't support MLB?  Now you may think the argument defies logic, and in academic circles that may be correct, but here in UP land where dogma sometimes rules the day, the aforementioned argument is precisely what everyone will believe.  So go find some other city Mr. Manfred, our experts have spoken.

In all seriousness, I just don't get it man.  What insight do you have that allows you to make statements such as "you can think Charlotte can support MLB, you're just wrong"?  Surely you must know something I don't if you are going to make the claim as if it is self-evident.

I am all about being told I am wrong if there is strong evidence to counter a claim I have made, but it's frustrating to be continually told I'm wrong and insane for my opinion about MLB by someone who is basing their assertion entirely on conjecture and supposition (my guess is that you're just parroting what people like Michael Smith have said).  I have presented lots of evidence on this forum in support of my opinion that MLB will work in Charlotte-everything from demographic trends to BLS data, to statistical models; you have presented nothing.  Don't be so arrogant as to tell me I am wrong, and so abrasive as to claim I am insane, unless you have evidence that directly refutes my argument.  If Charlotte can't support MLB in your opinion then fine you are entitled to your opinion, but at least be humble enough to state it's your opinion.  Don't present it so factually unless you have some credible data upon which to base your claim.

BTW just so you know, the commissioner has said it would be another 5-6 years before expansion would be approved and then teams would have to be awarded, stadiums built, etc.. It would be 2025 at the earliest before Charlotte got a team, but by then Charlotte will have approximately 3 million in her metro area.  Is 3 million people in the metro big enough, in your opinion, for a baseball team?

[15895]

He disagrees. no need to be so combatitive because someone disagrees.

 

I actually think it would be a shame to lose the BBT stadium from 3rd ward. 

[cltbwimob]

^^^There is no "respectful disagreement" when the opening salvo is to call someone insane especially when they provide no evidence to support their own argument.  Wouldn't you agree that's a little combative in its own right?

Someone can disagree all they want, and that's fine.  However, if you are going to say that I am insane for my opinion regarding MLB in Charlotte-especially when my opinion aligns with that of the commissioner of MLB and is supported by actual data-then please be so courteous as to explain why I am insane.

 

Edited April 24, 2016 by cltbwimob

[Third Strike]

If we do get a MLB team, hopefully they place it in the American League East division. North Carolina, especially Charlotte and the Triangle, has a large amount of transplants. Not only would you get natives out to support their own homegrown team, but also folks that want to see the Yankees and Red Sox play. I think that's more important than a rivalry between Atlanta and Charlotte in the National League.

Also, would it be overkill to have a minor league stadium, along with a major league stadium, inside Uptown? I still think the Pipe Foundry land is most ideal for a major league stadium. I'm not a fan of disconnecting Graham, and part of that overall block is owned by the NCDOT, which I think is part of the future Gateway Station. It would also serve as a great anchor for redeveloping that corner of Uptown.

[SouthEndCLT811]

Since we're talking long term sports where our metro is much larger if we do get MLB my desired repurpose of BB&T Ballpark would be to turn it into an MLS stadium like Portland did to Providence Park for the Timbers.  Very different styles as this park is definitely more cavernous than BB&T but I'm sure there are ways to add capacity to the outfield areas to bring us closer to 15-20K.  Also selfishly just want to be able to march to soccer matches through Romare Bearden from Hooligans haha

Baseball configuration:

http://s237.photobucket.com/user/MojaveNC/media/DSCF7686.jpg.html

Soccer configuration:

http://www.droppingtimber.net/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/pge_park_pano_with_turf_and_portland.jpg

[ah59396]

On April 24, 2016 at 7:53 AM, Jayvee said:

I do realize that but it's 2016 not the 90s. The Indians set all kinds of attendance records then too and have the worst attendance in the league now. You can think Charlotte could support an MLB team, you're just wrong. Would it be cool? Sure, I guess. MLS makes more sense 

MLS does not make more sense.  At all.  We are much farther away from an MLS team than we are from an MLB team.  The MLS is a 20 team league, currently expanding to 24 teams with the addition of Atlanta, Minnesota, LA 2 and Miami.  Beyond that expansion, I think there may be a point down the road where they move to 28.  Which will probably occur in the mid 2020's.  That said, Charlotte is far down that list, behind Austin, St Louis, Louisville, Sacramento, Cincinnati, Pittsburgh, Phoenix and San Antonio.  All cities with far superior fan support, most of which that already have soccer specific stadiums, and many that are 1 or two sport cities.  Or in the case of Austin and Louisville, none.

I'm a big soccer fan and I support the Independence, but MLS, much more than MLB, is the pipe dream here.  We are at the top of the table in the discussion about MLB expansion, and for good reason.  We are the anchor of the Carolinas, a baseball hotbed.  And have no MLB teams within even an earshot of us

 

MLB is likely to expand to 32 within the next 10 years.  Within a decade, we are going to be a metro of 3 million people.  We can and will support the MLB.

On April 23, 2016 at 0:50 PM, SentioVenia said:

Baseball is a dying sport.  MLS FTW!

Read this and get back to me.  I used to think the same thing.  Baseball is as healthy as ever.

 

 

http://mlb.nbcsports.com/2014/09/09/baseball-is-dying-nonsense-the-case-for-baseballs-vitality/

Edited April 27, 2016 by ah59396

[jednc]

I think I've asked this question here before but who comes to mind as potential owners? Has anyone come up with any new ideas?

[cltbwimob]

^^^ I think if it happens, Don Beaver (Knights owner) has to be in the conversation.  He was the one who originally attempted to move the Twins to NC back in the late 90s.  

Other than that, I've heard Derek Jeter's name thrown around as a potential owner of an expansion franchise.

Edited April 26, 2016 by cltbwimob

[Higgs Boson]

Woah, this thread was started eleven years ago.  I haven't followed any of it and I don't really know much about this stuff, but I've always assumed Charlotte could handle an MLB team, just not three professional franchises.  Seems like most cities around our size have two or less (Indianapolis, Portland, Nashville, Kansas City, Seattle, Baltimore, St. Louis, Cincinnati, San Diego, Milwaukee, San Antonio, Austin, etc...) but then again Charlotte is crazy hot.

[jednc]

1 hour ago, cltbwimob said:

^^^ I think if it happens, Don Beaver (Knights owner) has to be in the conversation.  He was the one who originally attempted to move the Twins to NC back in the late 90s.  

Other than that, I've heard Derek Jeter's name thrown around as a potential owner of an expansion franchise.

 

Yes, he is (Don Beaver). I wonder if he's still interested in MLB ownership? Jeter would be interesting, but I'd prefer someone with ties to NC. I tried to research baseball players from NC who might have the cash to mount a serious bid, but I haven' turned up much yet (not to imply the don't exist, just haven't made much headway). There's always Jerry Reese (sp?) I guess...

[ah59396]

3 hours ago, jednc said:

Yes, he is (Don Beaver). I wonder if he's still interested in MLB ownership? Jeter would be interesting, but I'd prefer someone with ties to NC. I tried to research baseball players from NC who might have the cash to mount a serious bid, but I haven' turned up much yet (not to imply the don't exist, just haven't made much headway). There's always Jerry Reese (sp?) I guess...

Well the Rays are the least valuable team in baseball and their 2016 valuation was $650m according to Forbes.

I don't even think A Rod has that kind of dough.  It's going to take an ownership group to bring a team here.

[cltbwimob]

15 minutes ago, ah59396 said:

Well the Rays are the least valuable team in baseball and their 2016 valuation was $650m according to Forbes.

I don't even think A Rod has that kind of dough.  It's going to take an ownership group to bring a team here.

Agreed.  It will take an ownership group.  I guess I should have qualified my statement to say that I think they would be possible majority owners.