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Charlotte MLB Team Speculation


ncguy06

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1 hour ago, dylansukkert said:

We have never been to a week night game other than Thursday nights which to me always seem full because of Thirty Thursday

Maybe they should re-think their strategy for the other weeknight games to expand on that and fill seats. CLT economy is good, but people will still vote with their feet if they believe they are getting more bang for their buck....... I could be wrong.

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23 minutes ago, UPNoDa said:

Maybe they should re-think their strategy for the other weeknight games to expand on that and fill seats. CLT economy is good, but people will still vote with their feet if they believe they are getting more bang for their buck....... I could be wrong.

For one thing they could allow in food and drinks (non alcoholic of course). That is a large part of the cost for a family. The Rockies do this believe it or not.  If the kids become fanatic fans over time the parents will do as they're told. ;-)

I don't think you can just keep adding promotions. At some point you have to match prices with demand. Maybe that is what you mean? If they don't want to vary ticket prices they could vary vendor prices (except beer which is a good promo but not for my micro tastes). 

I know right now they want to maintain their "premium" brand but I see them starting to cut costs. For example no more police at the crossing from 3rd street which I use. That started a month or so ago I think. I would think that is a small expense in the big picture but it adds up I suppose.

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13 minutes ago, elrodvt said:

For one thing they could allow in food and drinks (non alcoholic of course). That is a large part of the cost for a family. The Rockies do this believe it or not.  If the kids become fanatic fans over time the parents will do as they're told. ;-)

I don't think you can just keep adding promotions. At some point you have to match prices with demand. Maybe that is what you mean? If they don't want to vary ticket prices they could vary vendor prices (except beer which is a good promo but not for my micro tastes). 

I know right now they want to maintain their "premium" brand but I see them starting to cut costs. For example no more police at the crossing from 3rd street which I use. That started a month or so ago I think. I would think that is a small expense in the big picture but it adds up I suppose.

I wonder what the Knights expectations will be in 2-3 years. The weekend games will continue to draw big crowds possibly with some drop off but I have a feeling the week nights will take even more of a hit. Here are the attendance numbers over the last 6 years; 2013 last season in Fort Mill: 3,803, 2014: 9,686 2015: 9,428 2016: 8,974 2017: 9,109 the only season since they have been in Uptown they have not led attendance in MiLB 2018: 8,822.   

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The gap between sales (if they even reported the sales correctly) and attendance will have to close over time. Few people are going to continue to buy season tickets and only come to weekend games (Sun is bad usually so 2 days) which should come out to around 2/7 of the games. 

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22 hours ago, elrodvt said:

You didn't answer my question about your attendance at Knights games.

Sorry, I honestly missed that question.  Not only do I not attend Knights games, I pass when my company has free tickets or events.  I just have no interest in minor league baseball because they aren't necessarily trying to win (the focus is on development).  Even tanking teams like the Padres are trying to win individual games.  I'm sure the Knights try to win, in the same way the Panthers try to win preseason games.  Just not for me unfortunately.  I'll follow a lousy MLB team way more than a first place minor league team. 

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Looking at just the games tonight and Saturday, many of the sections (especially good seats along the baselines) are completely sold out.  The same empty sections pictured above.  

My inference is that the Knights have a problem with selling too many season tickets.   I would bet that most of these seats are owned by companies or people who don't have the desire to go to every game in a minor league season.   So they make an effort to give away the tickets when they can but don't really have a problem with letting them go to waste due to the low cost.   The good news is this allows Charlotte to claim solid attendance.  The bad news is empty seats mean empty concession stands.  

What Charlotte should do is similar to what the Buffalo Sabres did in creating a season ticket holder exchange.   The Sabres allow season ticket holders to return unwanted season tickets in exchange for points at the team store.  They then turn around and open the premium seats for sale outside of sites like StubHub.   Many buyers don't want to pay the StubHub fees and many sellers simply don't want to be bothered with a process.  Making an exchange could help this.

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The team does not seem to have any problem selling tickets Thursday- Saturday nights. Last nights posted crowd was 10,730 well over capacity. I thought they had something set up where season ticket holders could sell their tickets to single game purchasers, anyone a season ticket holder that has any info on this? Actually going to the game tonight any I expect it to be packed with the milder temperatures this evening.  

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Do people still think a MLB team in Charlotte is a good idea? Lol, so adorable.

Breakdown of attendance in the MLB currently (in terms of home game stadium capacity):

4 teams 90-96% (St. Louis, Boston, Cubs, San Fran)

5 teams 80-89% (Houston, Yankees, LA, Milwaukee, Anaheim)

4 teams 70-79% (Atlanta, DC, Colorado, Mets)

4 teams 60-69% (San Diego, Minneapolis, Philly, Toronto)

6 teams 50-59% (Seattle, Dallas, Arizona, Kansas City, Detroit, Cleveland)

6 teams 40-49% (Cincinnati, Pittsburgh, Baltimore, White Sox, Oakland, Tampa Bay)

1 team 25% (LOLOLOL Miami)

Speculatively, Charlotte will fall into the 40% range (no more than the 50% range), and thats including the continued downward trend of baseball attendance coupled with the time we finally get a team and build a stadium. No thanks.

Edited by Jayvee
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While I don't disagree with your overall sentiment about the direction of baseball that "how adorable" is kind of an off putting start to your message.  I'm sure the same argument about the region being able to support the NBA or NFL was made over the past 20-30 years.

I personally don't get nor have I done much research into the economics of how the commissioner is deadset on expansion despite those sort of numbers as you indicated.  But if it's expanding and a billionaire wants to finance it by all means "why not us".

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25 minutes ago, Jayvee said:

Do people still think a MLB team in Charlotte is a good idea? Lol, so adorable.

Breakdown of attendance in the MLB currently (in terms of home game stadium capacity):

4 teams 90-96% (St. Louis, Boston, Cubs, San Fran)

5 teams 80-89% (Houston, Yankees, LA, Milwaukee, Anaheim)

4 teams 70-79% (Atlanta, DC, Colorado, Mets)

4 teams 60-69% (San Diego, Minneapolis, Philly, Toronto)

6 teams 50-59% (Seattle, Dallas, Arizona, Kansas City, Detroit, Cleveland)

6 teams 40-49% (Cincinnati, Pittsburgh, Baltimore, White Sox, Oakland, Tampa Bay)

1 team 25% (LOLOLOL Miami)

Speculatively, Charlotte will fall into the 40% range (no more than the 50% range), and thats including the continued downward trend of baseball attendance coupled with the time we finally get a team and build a stadium. No thanks.

Teams have historically built larger stadiums to capitalize on weekends when attendance is higher.  That brings the capacity average down but helps with the overall average.  The Dodgers and Yankees lead in attendance but are between 80-89 because of the size of the stadiums (Dodgers draw over 11K more to games compared to the Red Sox, who are near capacity).  Also, Seattle, Arizona and Texas are averaging ~27-28K each.  That's a lot of fans for a sport with 81 home games.  They are all in the 50-59% capacity range.  Still significantly more than the Hornets draw.  Also, I'm not sure why we would be no more than 50% capacity.  Milwaukee is 80%+.  I hope we get a team and build one of the smaller stadiums (which will limit our overall attendance but have us at the higher end of capacity).  I believe (open to correction) that Charlotte is already a bigger market than KC, Milwaukee, Cincinnati, Cleveland and Pittsburgh.  We're not far behind St Louis and Baltimore and growing much faster than all of those markets.  We also would be more likely to draw from all of the Carolina's (whereas every one of the aforementioned markets would have teams (some have multiple teams) closer than the Braves and the Nationals to us).  Not sure why you think the idea is adorable...  

 

 

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9 minutes ago, JBS said:

Teams have historically built larger stadiums to capitalize on weekends when attendance is higher.  That brings the capacity average down but helps with the overall average.  The Dodgers and Yankees lead in attendance but are between 80-89 because of the size of the stadiums (Dodgers draw over 11K more to games compared to the Red Sox, who are near capacity).  Also, Seattle, Arizona and Texas are averaging ~27-28K each.  That's a lot of fans for a sport with 81 home games.  They are all in the 50-59% capacity range.  Still significantly more than the Hornets draw.  Also, I'm not sure why we would be no more than 50% capacity.  Milwaukee is 80%+.  I hope we get a team and build one of the smaller stadiums (which will limit our overall attendance but have us at the higher end of capacity).  I believe (open to correction) that Charlotte is already a bigger market than KC, Milwaukee, Cincinnati, Cleveland and Pittsburgh.  We're not far behind St Louis and Baltimore and growing much faster than all of those markets.  We also would be more likely to draw from all of the Carolina's (whereas every one of the aforementioned markets would have teams (some have multiple teams) closer than the Braves and the Nationals to us).  Not sure why you think the idea is adorable... 

Well I could have also done based upon average attendance as well, and it would still indicate Charlotte would be in the way bottom half of the list. To even compare or think CLT attendance would ever compare to the likes of St. Louis is just insanity. "Market" doesn't always matter (see Charlotte and the NBA). Those cities you mentioned (Milwaukee, KC, etc, the markets we are bigger than) have entrenched baseball fanbases. Not only is Charlotte a transient city where most people likely already have their own teams, the cities that have newer teams (Arizona, Colorado) are still not a level where it would be worth it here. 

Wouldn't you rather tax sports dollars funnel to the Panthers and Hornets? A MLS team makes way more sense than MLB.

 

And for the record, Cleveland is a bigger media market than Charlotte (for now) :) 

Edited by Jayvee
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The MLS does make more sense talking about the number of games but looking at the Independence that is almost a joke. Look at Cincinnati who they just played on ESPN2, looked to be 25,000-30.000 people at the game.  It would be interesting to see a poll on rather the majority of people wanted MLS or MLB.

Edited by dylansukkert
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1 hour ago, Jayvee said:

Well I could have also done based upon average attendance as well, and it would still indicate Charlotte would be in the way bottom half of the list. To even compare or think CLT attendance would ever compare to the likes of St. Louis is just insanity. "Market" doesn't always matter (see Charlotte and the NBA). Those cities you mentioned (Milwaukee, KC, etc, the markets we are bigger than) have entrenched baseball fanbases. Not only is Charlotte a transient city where most people likely already have their own teams, the cities that have newer teams (Arizona, Colorado) are still not a level where it would be worth it here. 

Wouldn't you rather tax sports dollars funnel to the Panthers and Hornets? A MLS team makes way more sense than MLB.

 

And for the record, Cleveland is a bigger media market than Charlotte (for now) :) 

C'mon man, I never said CLT attendance would compare to St Louis.  I did say this:

 

I was comparing the MSA/population of the markets, not the fan-bases or the media market:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_metropolitan_statistical_areas

Colorado is averaging 36,805 this year.  That's not enough?  Arizona is ~27K. 

Entrenched fan bases in Baltimore, KC, Pittsburgh, Chicago with the WS, Oakland, Cincy, Detroit and CLEVELAND (WITH A FIRST PLACE TEAM AND ONLY DRAWING 23k) are doing a lot worse.  Heck, in 2016 when the Indians lost the WS, they drew an average of 19,650.  I think Charlotte could do that. 

Also, Charlotte led the NBA in attendance for most of the early years of their existence.  Poor ownership is the problem there (Shin/Johnson/Jordan).

 

 

 

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4 minutes ago, JBS said:

C'mon man, I never said CLT attendance would compare to St Louis.  I did say this:

 

I was comparing the MSA/population of the markets, not the fan-bases or the media market:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_metropolitan_statistical_areas

Colorado is averaging 36,805 this year.  That's not enough?  Arizona is ~27K. 

Entrenched fan bases in Baltimore, KC, Pittsburgh, Chicago with the WS, Oakland, Cincy, Detroit and CLEVELAND (WITH A FIRST PLACE TEAM AND ONLY DRAWING 23k) are doing a lot worse.  Heck, in 2016 when the Indians lost the WS, they drew an average of 19,650.  I think Charlotte could do that. 

Also, Charlotte led the NBA in attendance for most of the early years of their existence.  Poor ownership is the problem there (Shin/Johnson/Jordan)

Why waste money on a stadium for 20k people a game?

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Just now, Jayvee said:

Why waste money on a stadium for 20k people a game?

Huh?  I thought you supported having NBA and MLS here?  Should we not have BB&T for the Knights (less than 10K a game)?  I'll leave it here because you clearly don't want MLB here and we aren't having a productive conversation...

 

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Rather than attendance, the true measure of MLB are the regional sport networks that carry each franchise televised games. These RSN do extremely well in ratings. This year, of the 29 clubs tracked by Neilson (Toronto is not included), 11 are first and ten more are second or third in prime time in their designated market. MLB is a national sport with regional loyalties.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/maurybrown/2018/07/19/prime-time-tv-ratings-for-each-team-at-the-mlb-all-star-break/#2995383c4c4f

MLS televised national games are a near invisible blip in ratings.

Edited by tarhoosier
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6 hours ago, JBS said:

Sorry, I honestly missed that question.  Not only do I not attend Knights games, I pass when my company has free tickets or events.  I just have no interest in minor league baseball because they aren't necessarily trying to win (the focus is on development).  Even tanking teams like the Padres are trying to win individual games.  I'm sure the Knights try to win, in the same way the Panthers try to win preseason games.  Just not for me unfortunately.  I'll follow a lousy MLB team way more than a first place minor league team. 

I agree. But do enjoy watching the raw talent in high A. Plus your see more whacky, funny stuff. I'm a Rockies fan so going to Tourist games is a lot of fun. I could care less about White Sox prospects though.

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1 hour ago, tarhoosier said:

Rather than attendance, the true measure of MLB are the regional sport networks that carry each franchise televised games. These RSN do extremely well in ratings. This year, of the 29 clubs tracked by Neilson (Toronto is not included), 11 are first and ten more are second or third in prime time in their designated market. MLB is a national sport with regional loyalties.

https://www.forbes.com/sites/maurybrown/2018/07/19/prime-time-tv-ratings-for-each-team-at-the-mlb-all-star-break/#2995383c4c4f

MLS televised national games are a near invisible blip in ratings.

As an aside, I hate the fact we cannot watch anything but the braves while the nats, reds.. are blacked out anyway. I hate the braves and their damn tomohawk chant! 

I'm not sure you're right though about attendance (may generally be true though).

IMHO, If there aren't enough fans locally to drive pretty high attendence then big TV contract or not it's not a good place for MLB. The Rockies have a pretty small TV contract but the stadium is often sold out. Admittedly dodgers or Cubs or Saint Louis being in town are those sell out games. Still I had seasons and the stadium was usually at least 70%? full if the weather was nice. Which is another problem here....

Edited by elrodvt
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5 hours ago, dylansukkert said:

The team does not seem to have any problem selling tickets Thursday- Saturday nights. Last nights posted crowd was 10,730 well over capacity. I thought they had something set up where season ticket holders could sell their tickets to single game purchasers, anyone a season ticket holder that has any info on this? Actually going to the game tonight any I expect it to be packed with the milder temperatures this evening.  

Sure it'll be a very good weekend crowd. The discussion originally was about a 30% full stadium reporting a sellout every weekday. Posted crowd is immaterial and doesn't track attendance.

They have a cheesy exchange program that'll help you sell tickets but you only get a credit towards next year's season tickets. Many MLB teams have better programs. For example the Rockies had (have?) a program that allows you to give up a seat in exchange for 2 tickets to a later game. Or there are plentiful scalping options.

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3 hours ago, JBS said:

Huh?  I thought you supported having NBA and MLS here?  Should we not have BB&T for the Knights (less than 10K a game)?  I'll leave it here because you clearly don't want MLB here and we aren't having a productive conversation...

 

You misunderstand. I mean why waste money on a stadium that will be 40% full consistently 

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1 hour ago, Jayvee said:

You misunderstand. I mean why waste money on a stadium that will be 40% full consistently 

You're right. The trend is towards smaller more intimate parks. It could drive up the price and the fans / TV like that a lot better. I hate watching a game @ Yankee stadium where all the expensive Bro seats sit empty.

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3 hours ago, JoshuaDrown said:

Tampa, Pittsburgh, Cleveland, and Kansas City have three (as will Nashville and Cincinnati once their new MLS teams start play)... Charlotte can play with those cities.

Agree Charlotte can definitely play with those cities as it's larger than all those metros except for Tampa. 

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  • 2 months later...

This probably isn't directly relevant to Charlotte (particularly since we do not have a stadium) but the Angels have opted out of their Anaheim lease and are having a tough time finding willing taxpayer funds for a new ballpark in the LA area: http://www.latimes.com/sports/mlb/la-sp-angels-anaheim-lease-20181016-story.html

 

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