Tall House site at 45 Ionia

[Prankster]

Recessed buildings are great, if they include public spaces like fountains, parks, or other pedestrian friendly uses. It's when uses like parking lots come into play that it becomes bad urban design. Plus, recesses should be reserved for landmark buildings, i.e. Hancock in Chicago, not infill projects like 45 Ionia will provide.

[torgo]

Well here are my two cents. Maybe I am weird, but I don't really give a crap if the top couple of floors are set back. Sometimes this is required, even desirable, to prevent the "sun-less canyon" effect. This is what I look for in most projects around downtown:

Is it the ground floor built out to street? Yes.

Lots of windows on ground floor? Looks like it

Ground floor retail? Yes.

Is there surface parking? No.

If not, is there some ugly stupid garage taking up valuable first-floor space? Nope.

Is there a residential component? Yes!

Is the building really weird looking? Kinda.

Looks like it will be a positive addition (thusfar) to me. I also think the building is kinda ugly, but in this case, the good design and uses outweigh the bad by a long shot.

[GRDadof3]

This project looks like it will have a rooftop garden over the two-story retail portion at least. Let's keep vetting this thing out

And another question, why are they discussing these projects and upcoming hearings on them at the City Commission tomorrow? Are they bypassing the Planning Commission on these?

[Nitro]

I still contend that the HPC is a political body that can be paid to look the other way depending on who's doing the developing!

not a fan

MJLO, I'd be a bit careful about saying this. Insinuating that a governmental body is accepting bribes is quite an accusation.

I have dealt with the HPC on many different occasions and I believe that your analysis is unfounded. They have always been a very straight forward group doing what they have been charged to do. Through the State of Michigan, they are bound by the Secretary of the Interior's Standards for Rehabilitation. That's it, that is the only parameter they have to work in. They are bound to make the best decisions possible within the parameters of the Standards.

I know several of the HPC commissioners personally and professionally. I know there isn't a member of that commission that would accept a bribe for any reason. All of them take their positions very seriously. In fact I think there may be one or two on this blog.

Why is it that when we don't agree with what a ruling body has to say we immediately jump to the conclusion that they are getting paid off? Most of the decisions that they have to make are extremely mundane. Joe Homeowner in Heritage Hill wants to replace a railing on his front porch type of stuff. It's just the one or two high-profile decisions a year that get the most attention.

You think these guys are tough? Try dealing with the HPC in Savannah, GA. Now that was tough!

Cut them a little slack

Nitro

[Mark Miller]

The Grand Rapids HPC is composed of citizens who volunteer their time, in order to try to preserve the historical integrity of Grand Rapids. They certainly are not taking bribes.

The commission is bound by the Federal Secretary of Interior Standards, the State of Michigan and the local GR ordinance. These standards certainly allow for some flexibility in their interpretation, particularly in regards to new construction infill that is within district. This interpretation does create some gray areas, but also allows for a wide range of infill development, both good and bad.

The commission does its best to interpret these ordinances and standards, while also serving the public in a very fair way. Projects and developers are treated as fairly as possible across the board, even though some building owners and developers do their best to attempt to bypass the system.

It is not a perfect system, but it has proven to be a very good system. It has helped Grand Rapids maintain much of its good urban fabric and created economic development. It has provided the city with a great stock of higher end homes for a diverse population, homes which are routinely sold for in excess of $300,000 in Heritage Hill, despite leaking roofs, antiquated plumbing and heating, and the overall poor quality of the schools

It is not a coincidence that homes in Heritage Hill and other districts have consistently out performed other areas of the city in yearly value increases. I think something like 15% yearly over the course of the last 10 years. This can be correlated directly to the historic district and the HPC's continued vigilence.

It may also be true that much of the urban redevelopment that is occuring, is happening in districts, because values are stable. This is in part due to designation and protection, which the HPC oversees.

There is also a study that indicated that construction in historically designated areas was a leading job creator in cities, second only to medical construction.

Almost everything about HPC that gets printed in the newspapers is negative (because it sells newspapers), what does not get printed is that without historic districts, most of what gets discussed on this board may not be happening, because our city would be a gutted soulless place, full of parking lots and bad urban renewal projects. The junk that was added during the 1960's near Monroe and Ottawa, north of Lyon, would have just continued south, destroying everything that we hold so dear today.

[Prankster]

Almost everything about HPC that gets printed in the newspapers is negative (because it sells newspapers), what does not get printed is that without historic districts, most of what gets discussed on this board may not be happening, because our city would be a gutted soulless place, full of parking lots and bad urban renewal projects. The junk that was added during the 1960's near Monroe and Ottawa, north of Lyon, would have just continued south, destroying everything that we hold so dear today.

A lot of people have a problem with them, myself included, for going on a media blitz trying to save this very development that you speak of. When Jack Buchanan proposed buying the city/county complex and putting up a hotel, the historical commission tried to block it at every turn. And it isn't because the buildings were historic, it was because they were designed by SOM out of Chicago.

Big deal, SOM has designed hundreds of buildings. It doesn't mean that everyone of them is a landmark worth saving. Not sure if any of you remember the letters to the press crying about trying to save the buildings, but it was bordering on the sublime.

And I am not mixing these folks up with people that wanted to save the buildings because of their relation with the Calder sculpture. These were a whole other set of people that had different motives.

[joeDowntown]

I don't think the HPC has alterior motives although I do find a lack of consistency. Like Prankster said, they were ready for a fight when it came to the city/county buildings, but they didn't even think twice about the Israel's building.

I haven't spent time analyzing the site plan for the J.W. Marriott (which I love for the most part), but you think they would have fought a lot harder when the Israel's building was basically knocked down for a pocket park and a bad facade.

Of course, they aren't nearly as fun as watching the Planning Commission pondering whether a green neon band on the B.O.B is a sign.

Joe

[torgo]

I don't think the HPC has alterior motives although I do find a lack of consistency. Like Prankster said, they were ready for a fight when it came to the city/county buildings, but they didn't even think twice about the Israel's building.

I haven't spent time analyzing the site plan for the J.W. Marriott (which I love for the most part), but you think they would have fought a lot harder when the Israel's building was basically knocked down for a pocket park and a bad facade.

Of course, they aren't nearly as fun as watching the Planning Commission pondering whether a green neon band on the B.O.B is a sign.

Joe

I don't know why anybody would want to preserve those god-awful city/county buildings. Good grief.

[snoogit]

I don't know why anybody would want to preserve those god-awful city/county buildings. Good grief.

as a reminder of whats horribly wrong with the city government perhaps?

[torgo]

as a reminder of whats horribly wrong with the city government perhaps?

Hmm...good point. Dark, ugly, bulky, inefficient, poorly designed....

[Nitro]

And it isn't because the buildings were historic, it was because they were designed by SOM out of Chicago.

Big deal, SOM has designed hundreds of buildings. It doesn't mean that everyone of them is a landmark worth saving.

I know this will probably be difficult for some people to understand but I would have fought for the preservation of City Hall as well. Yes it is a fact that City Hall was designed by SOM, but I don't feel that this is the heart of the matter.

The late James Marston Fitch one of the most prominent preservationists in this country wrote about preservation as the "curatorial management of the built world". The fact that SOM was the designer of City Hall is not significant. What is significant is that City Hall (like it or loath it) is one of the better regional examples of modernist architecture. This to me is really the root of the issue putting all politics aside.

In the 1960's many thought that Victorian architecture wasn't worth saving either. Hello urban renewal, good-bye old city hall, good-bye union station, good-bye many fine works of architecture that we all wish we had back today. Does everyone like modernist architecture? No. Does everyone like Victorian, federal, colonial, or gothic architecture? Not everyone. However, like Fitch I feel it is our duty to preserve the better examples of architecture styles as "curatorial management of the built world." Most importantly to keep the layers of a cities history intact. To try and eradicate one particular style of architecture is foolish.

My personal opinion,

Nitro

[snoogit]

In the 1960's many thought that Victorian architecture wasn't worth saving either. Hello urban renewal, good-bye old city hall, good-bye union station, good-bye many fine works of architecture that we all wish we had back today. Does everyone like modernist architecture? No. Does everyone like Victorian, federal, colonial, or gothic architecture? Not everyone. However, like Fitch I feel it is our duty to preserve the better examples of architecture styles as "curatorial management of the built world." Most importantly to keep the layers of a cities history intact. To try and eradicate one particular style of architecture is foolish.

My personal opinion,

Nitro

Heathen!!!!!! *Grabs his pitchfork, and torch* Throw him in the river!

I can see that argument, but the City hall as it is now is horribly insufficient from everything I have heard. It would be awesome to see city hall move across the street from the courthouse on Ionia, and connect it to the commerce building for one giant government complex there. (City, and county)

[Prankster]

I know this will probably be difficult for some people to understand but I would have fought for the preservation of City Hall as well. Yes it is a fact that City Hall was designed by SOM, but I don't feel that this is the heart of the matter.

The late James Marston Fitch one of the most prominent preservationists in this country wrote about preservation as the "curatorial management of the built world". The fact that SOM was the designer of City Hall is not significant. What is significant is that City Hall (like it or loath it) is one of the better regional examples of modernist architecture. This to me is really the root of the issue putting all politics aside.

In the 1960's many thought that Victorian architecture wasn't worth saving either. Hello urban renewal, good-bye old city hall, good-bye union station, good-bye many fine works of architecture that we all wish we had back today. Does everyone like modernist architecture? No. Does everyone like Victorian, federal, colonial, or gothic architecture? Not everyone. However, like Fitch I feel it is our duty to preserve the better examples of architecture styles as "curatorial management of the built world." Most importantly to keep the layers of a cities history intact. To try and eradicate one particular style of architecture is foolish.

My personal opinion,

Nitro

But if you go with that line of thinking, then tearing down any building would be bad because they are all representative of a certain style. Not try to start an argument, and I do respect your opinion, but how would that be any different than try to save the former police station/county courthouse that were on Monroe? They were deemed replacable, and were knocked down for the coonvention center. They represented a certain style, and wouldn't that make them worthy of saving?

[Nitro]

But if you go with that line of thinking, then tearing down any building would be bad because they are all representative of a certain style. Not try to start an argument, and I do respect your opinion, but how would that be any different than try to save the former police station/county courthouse that were on Monroe? They were deemed replacable, and were knocked down for the coonvention center. They represented a certain style, and wouldn't that make them worthy of saving?

Yes, someone looking for a reason not to tear down something could possibly say that every building is representative of some style. However, I don't believe that. Some buildings are just crap and need to move on. There are very few buildings that are representative of a true style. Most are a verigated mix of a couple of styles. I feel that that City Hall is the best regional example of modernest mid-rise construction and is worthy of preservation from that respect alone.

I don't think anyone in their right mind would have argued that the old police station / court complex was a true representation of any style. That thing was nasty and needed a dirt nap.

The curatorial management idea cannot be used in every arguement. If you preserve everything the city stops evolving and changing. Savannah is struggling with this concept. Although downtown Savannah is a very beautiful place it is visually stuck in time. Contemporary architecture is frowned upon greatly. Moshe Safdie just finished a museum annex there in a very contemporary style. The debate went on for years over that one.

Nitro

[dbrok]

Yes, someone looking for a reason not to tear down something could possibly say that every building is representative of some style. However, I don't believe that. Some buildings are just crap and need to move on. There are very few buildings that are representative of a true style. Most are a verigated mix of a couple of styles. I feel that that City Hall is the best regional example of modernest mid-rise construction and is worthy of preservation from that respect alone.

Just because a building like City Hall is an example of a certain style doesn't mean it's not ugly. Unfortunately the general public makes their decisions about buildings based on whether it looks good or bad. And the City Hall building looks bad to most people. I don't want what looks like a giant brown air conditioning unit representing Grand Rapids. Modernism has had it's day and it hasn't stood up to the test of time. People like ornamentation and good design that takes their breath away (see 30 St Mary Axe below or the Milwaukee Art Museum).

The time of the Bauhaus movement is over. Something much more attractive needs to be put in City Hall's place.

[GRDadof3]

Sometimes I look at City Hall and it doesn't look that bad.

I think a lot of our disdain for it and the County building are related to their prominent location. If they were tucked away in some obscure corner or were completely surrounded by high-rises, I would bet people would think differently.

[dbrok]

Sometimes I look at City Hall and it doesn't look that bad.

I think a lot of our disdain for it and the County building are related to their prominent location. If they were tucked away in some obscure corner or were completely surrounded by high-rises, I would bet people would think differently.

The one thing that really stands out, and you can kind of see it in the photo, is how dirty the outside of the building always looks. It seems like the exterior is fading under the windows, or there is dirt underneath running below the window frames. It just looks worn out.

[dbrok]

The one thing that really stands out, and you can kind of see it in the photo, is how dirty the outside of the building always looks. It seems like the exterior is fading under the windows, or there is dirt underneath running below the window frames. It just looks worn out.

The other thing that really irks me is what it replaced. The old city hall was such a beautiful and irreplaceable monument. Other cities that found a way to keep theirs are now rewarded (Milwaukee again):

[GRDadof3]

It definitely needs a good bath, that's for sure. I've noticed too what look like thousands (or millions) of cobwebs on the outside. But I can imagine with a new tower at the Federal Building site, a new tower in the parking lot by 5/3, and a tower where the county building is, the city building (cleaned up) would be OK. Maybe even add on to the height of it and use if for something else.

[PBJ]

I think we have to give credit to PBJ for having the inside track on this on Thursday before anyone else knew. Here's his quote from the 2006 Predictions thread:

I'm good like that with my sneaky sneaky skills. Working at the bar, you hear all kinds of "stuff"

[twoshort]

Working at the bar, you hear all kinds of "stuff"

I'm sure most of it is stuff like "brian is only paying attention to stacy because she's a total peppermint..." etc

but every now and again you hit it big

[PBJ]

I'm sure most of it is stuff like "brian is only paying attention to stacy because she's a total peppermint..." etc

but every now and again you hit it big

Actually it's a lot of "MORE RUMPLEMINTZ!" and "Wow, check out that chick, she's smoking" and "I like your new lip gloss".. and around 1:30 it turns more to "shheeeesh iiiiii aaaaammmmmmmmmm wastered..."

but at 5 o'clock it's a lot of normal folks (a lot of older couples) eating

[snoogit]

Actually it's a lot of "MORE RUMPLEMINTZ!" and "Wow, check out that chick, she's smoking" and "I like your new lip gloss".. and around 1:30 it turns more to "shheeeesh iiiiii aaaaammmmmmmmmm wastered..."

but at 5 o'clock it's a lot of normal folks (a lot of older couples) eating

WTH are rumplemints?

[GRDadof3]

Ahem..

Two New Development Projects Proposed for Downtown

[gvsusean]

rumplemints are either peppermint or cinnamon flavored booze, usually taken as a shot.