Tall House site at 45 Ionia

[wolverine]

That's just because of the architectural terracing. You can do that with any design. The one above could even be manipulated with small setbacks on upper levels for plants. You could even plant trees up there if you wanted. What I really want to focus on is the building architecture. The choice of material is awful. I really hope that isn't white glazed aluminum, and I really hope the windows aren't blue tinted like that. Hello bland office building architecture. There are more interesting formal ways in which this building can occupy its site. Oh well, I guess you get what you pay for.

Alot people argue if you are going to make buildings exhibit 20th century styles, make it look good. But the same applies for contemporary architecture. It can look like a cheap mass of sheet metal and glass, or it can be a magnificent composition of form and marriage of quality materials.

[RustTown]

Thanks John

(of course, I can't read anything, but you're right about it running the full length to Bank of Holland)

Where'd you find that? Are there any elevations? I went to the DDA website, but it says agendas aren't available.

[GRDadof3]

Right here L:

http://www.ci.grand-rapids.mi.us/index.pl?page_id=641

[Prankster]

Can anyone tell how far back the setbacks will be on the east side? We need Ionia to be built with a streetwall, not a bunch of varying suburban style setbacks.

[hombre_de_ciudad]

I wonder what it will look like from the back side, which is what you'll see going by on the S-curve.

[localtalent]

I don't think anyone's linked this yet today:

http://www.mlive.com/business/grpress/inde...3130.xml&coll=6

"Developers planning Tall House condominium project downtown are moving forward with plans even as the state balks at a $1 million tax credit request."

[GaryP]

Until recently, locally approved Brownfield projects were considered almost sure things at the state level after being vetted by Grand Rapids' Brownfield authority.

That's changed in the past six months, said Rick Chapla of the Grand Rapids economic development group The Right Place Inc.

"The projects that have come forth from the city of Grand Rapids ... have been exemplary and have met the intent of the law -- and there will be more yet to come," he said.

"I just caution that the development environment is changing as is the circumstances of review at the state level."

I'm not totally sure what Chapla means by this, but it doesn't sound good.

[MJLO]

I would assume that it means that the tax credits were put in place to increase and incourage developement. But the environment in the city is changing, meaning that perhaps the state feels that these incentives are no longer needed. Perhaps they feel that developements will start going thru without the state making concessions.

[localtalent]

I would assume that it means that the tax credits were put in place to increase and incourage developement. But the environment in the city is changing, meaning that perhaps the state feels that these incentives are no longer needed. Perhaps they feel that developements will start going thru without the state making concessions.

Remember this precedent when the details of Cabela's plans in Walker become public (soon....).

[LanCity]

Remember this precedent when the details of Cabela's plans in Walker become public (soon....).

I wouldn't call this a precedent nor would I consider this having ANYTHING to do with cabela's... first, cabelas is going into WALKER, not Grand Rapids, thus any brownfield would be done by the walker BRA not GR... meaning, any sbt credits filed would be from Walker, not Grand Rapids.

Am I insinuating that GR is the reason they didn't get the SBT credits? Kinda of, not because they are who they are but because they're requesting a ton of SBT with all the activity going on. Plus, I have a feeling Cabela's would be going for the +1 million SBT credit for 2007, not the 999,999 dollar one that Tall House was forced to apply for. Worth mentioning.

[Prankster]

Not to be a nag, but don't we already have a thread for Cabela's?

[GRDadof3]

Not to be a nag, but don't we already have a thread for Cabela's?

You're right Prankster Cabela's posts moved.

[LanCity]

You're right Prankster Cabela's posts moved.

Right, and I was trying to explain why Tall House didn't get the SBT credit and how it differs from Cabela's... My feeling is that SBT will go away soon and the only tax credits available to some of these developers will be New Market and Historical.

I don't know how many more historical buildings grand rapids has left to transform into modern usefulness... and I would suspect that there aren't very many due to the amount of new builds going on downtown (like Tall House)

Still without that potential for SBT leverage developers who want to refurbish historic structures will have to file for the additional 5% state credit as well as go after the full 20% federal which will severely handicap their ability to get creative with re-use (when you get the full 25% you basically can't do a thing to the facade, like not even replace windows)

Since New Market tax credits are contingent upon low income bases I question if they'd be any value to the urban core of GR.

A lot of times in these urban environments SBT Credits are much more attractive because developers use those funds to leverage bank financing (the more the financing, the larger the project, the more credits received, in turn better for the bank). Especially when there is minimal Brownfield TIF to be captured, if there is any at all.

[GRDadof3]

Right, and I was trying to explain why Tall House didn't get the SBT credit and how it differs from Cabela's... My feeling is that SBT will go away soon and the only tax credits available to some of these developers will be New Market and Historical.

I don't know how many more historical buildings grand rapids has left to transform into modern usefulness... and I would suspect that there aren't very many due to the amount of new builds going on downtown (like Tall House)

Still without that potential for SBT leverage developers who want to refurbish historic structures will have to file for the additional 5% state credit as well as go after the full 20% federal which will severely handicap their ability to get creative with re-use (when you get the full 25% you basically can't do a thing to the facade, like not even replace windows)

Since New Market tax credits are contingent upon low income bases I question if they'd be any value to the urban core of GR.

A lot of times in these urban environments SBT Credits are much more attractive because developers use those funds to leverage bank financing (the more the financing, the larger the project, the more credits received, in turn better for the bank). Especially when there is minimal Brownfield TIF to be captured, if there is any at all.

Are you saying the SBT should not be repealed so that it can be used as a "bargaining" or "financing" tool? That's interesting. What about all the businesses that can't get SBT credits because they are not expanding or looking to redevelop depressed areas? I agree it's nice to have these tools out there for developers to use, but it seems like we should be reaching the tipping point soon (maybe 5 years or so) where they won't be needed as much. We all like profits, I know.

[MJLO]

I will say, I'll be happy when people start getting denied for sbt's to me it means that they are no longer needed for developements to be spurned. Meaning the state of the city and economy are in good shape. I think it will mean we have reached where we want to go.

What's the status on Tall house, they broke ground yet?

[GaryP]

What about all the businesses that can't get SBT credits because they are not expanding or looking to redevelop depressed areas?

These SBT credits are available to Brownfield sites only. They aren't given to any project.

After a second glance at this; I don't see any issue with not giving Brownfield credits and the SBT credits that go together because the site really doesn't meet any Brownfield requirements. It seems like every urban project has gotten Brownfield credits regardless of the condition of the property. If the state actually wants to begin enforcing the requirements that

[LanCity]

Are you saying the SBT should not be repealed so that it can be used as a "bargaining" or "financing" tool? That's interesting. What about all the businesses that can't get SBT credits because they are not expanding or looking to redevelop depressed areas? I agree it's nice to have these tools out there for developers to use, but it seems like we should be reaching the tipping point soon (maybe 5 years or so) where they won't be needed as much. We all like profits, I know.

You know, I go back on forth on this one everyday... for one its a great incentive to developers. They might not need it to do a basic project but with it they can leverage funds from the bank that can make the project extra special... but at the same time it is a prohibitive factor when industries look to locate in this state because you have an SBT obligation even if your company isn't turning a profit.

Grand Rapids might be reaching that tipping point but areas like Detroit, Saginaw, Flint, Jackson, etc. aren't. Also, in small communities that might do one brownfield every couple years its extremely beneficial because of the aformentioned reasons. There are also certain situations where brownfield reimbursement doesn't work (like a Tax Incriment Finance Authority zone that can't afford to lose the tax revenue for that period of time) so the SBT credit is a vital part of the project.

Personally i think it would be nice to dump the SBT credit but replace it with a Personal Property credit or something like that which isn't going away... just to keep that incentive there and to give something of equitable value to the bank to leverage more financing... thats for the legislators to decide on IF something happens to the SBT.

[MJLO]

so back to Tall House, do they have a tentative ground breaking date?

[GRDadof3]

so back to Tall House, do they have a tentative ground breaking date?

They need 50% pre-sold before they can start. Have you reserved yours today? If everyone who reads this forum bought a condo downtown, we'd have a boom of the century!

[NorthEnder]

They need 50% pre-sold before they can start. Have you reserved yours today? If everyone who reads this forum bought a condo downtown, we'd have a boom of the century!

I drove by tall house today, and checked out all of the downtown projects (i have a bunch of pictures to post in the necessary threads). The sign outside Tall house said starting June 06 I believe, but that might just be a pipe dream. Without saying the starting price listed, I think they were in a lot of people's target price range. I'll hold off on Boardwalk to find out what TallHouse has planned.

[grcitydog]

I think Tall House, and the rest of the developments (eg River House) are on temporary hold and waiting to see what project X brings to town and then decide what to do with start dates, pricing, etc.

[torgo]

Here is a thought, and maybe this is the wrong thread for this, but is it possible that if this 'Project X' brings in a lot of high-paying jobs right away that we'll see all these condo prices go through the roof? Do any of you real-estate experts know if this is even a possibility?

[GRDadof3]

Here is a thought, and maybe this is the wrong thread for this, but is it possible that if this 'Project X' brings in a lot of high-paying jobs right away that we'll see all these condo prices go through the roof? Do any of you real-estate experts know if this is even a possibility?

That's the magic question Torgo. We're betting the prices are going to go through the roof once all the planned construction projects are well underway, (even without Project X), which is why we bought at Riverhouse

I don't think Tall House will wait though. Time is money on these projects. I would like to know starting prices on Tall House. Someone give Donna at Second Story a call

[GaryP]

That's the magic question Torgo. We're betting the prices are going to go through the roof once all the planned construction projects are well underway, (even without Project X), which is why we bought at Riverhouse

I don't think Tall House will wait though. Time is money on these projects. I would like to know starting prices on Tall House. Someone give Donna at Second Story a call

I walked by their sign earlier this week. Said condos from $160,000. I'd love to know what that actually gets you.

[GRDadof3]

I walked by their sign earlier this week. Said condos from $160,000. I'd love to know what that actually gets you.

Probably a nice view of the Arena bathroom glass-block walls No, probably lower floors on the back side, 1000 sf or so would be my guess. Thanks Gary.