Palm Trees where you'd least expect them.

[sleepy]

In the last 10 years or so I have see a tendency for people to transplant these trees outside their normal growing zone. Columbia is outside their natural area. I've even seen these trees in Charlotte. But these trees are living on borrowed time. We have been fortunate in the last couple of decades to not have experienced much weather in the SE where the daytime highs are in the single digits, but this does happen here as it happened quite often in the 70s. When it happens again, expect many of these large Palmetto trees that have been planted outside their growing zone to simply die.

In the Victorian era, palms became a big thing, primarily for indoor decoration, but also for outdoor, which is why you see palms growing outside in Ireland and Scotland. The deal behind that was that during that era, Europeans started traveling to/exploring the "exotic" tropical regions of the globe.

Perhaps something similar is at work today. Maybe a palm is a mark of the panache of the sunbelt. Maybe more people have second homes in or travel to the beach.

Too, I think it might be global warming to some extent. I suppose that plants take longer to migrate than animals, and as I said in an earlier post, alligators are now officially listed as native in Memphis. That was unheard of when I was a kid.

[waccamatt]

It should be noted this is a Palmetto tree and not a Palm tree. The Palmetto tree is a much more hardy plant than a Palm and can be found in areas that are subject to freezing weather, but not where it gets so cold to where the ground freezes as well.

Metro, with all due respect, the Palmetto is a variety of Palm Tree, just like the Date Palm and the Washington Palm.

[monsoon]

Metro, with all due respect, the Palmetto is a variety of Palm Tree, just like the Date Palm and the Washington Palm.

You are correct. The Palmetto is in the Palm family.

[poonther]

Great Thread!

I love palms and I enjoy seeing just how far north folks can grow them. I'm a "zone pusher" here myself. I live in Tallahassee which is Florida's "artic zone." We are in zone 8b, but I live downtown and have kept records since I've lived in this house and believe w/my "urban heat zone" my micro-climate is actually zone 9a. The lowest recorded temp. I've had in the 7 years here is 22 degrees while our "frostport" airport (it sits at the bottom of a hill in sandy soil) got to 15 degrees that same night.

I wish you guys would tell these folks over here on the Tally board that you don't have to live in and love Miami to love palms. Everytime I mention palms in the Tally threads, they accuse me of tryin' to make Tally look like Miami...please!

It's funny (not a bad thing) to see you SC folks refer to them as palmettos...which they are, but here in FL we call them Sabal's or Cabbage Palms. They are our state tree. And yes I agree w/you waccamatt they are palm trees.

Please note that not only are palms not native to many areas they are grown, but that could be said about many of the ornamental plants grown here in the SE. Camillas come from Japan, as do the over used and UGLY (IMO) Crappy Myrtles. So growning plants where they are not native happens all the time and is really no big deal. But that is different than growing a plant out of it's zone range.

Palms native to this area of North Florida are the Sabal palms, the sabal minors, the needle palms and the saw palmettos.

A good link for palms is Floridata.com look at his palm section.

You guys in Columbia look to be on the cusp of zone 7b and 8a and I bet those in the urban core get the urban heating to make them a zone 8a????

Palms I grow in my yard in zone are:

Sabal Palms

Needle Palms

European Fan Palms

Sagos and Coonties (not really a palm)

Windmill Palms

Pindos (jelly)

Palms I grow that are technically out of zone:

Mexican Fan Palms

Chinese Fan Palms

Lady Palms

I also have huge philendrons, white bird of paradise, weeping bottle brushes, navel oranges (not satsumas) and ruby red grapefruits. Both my citrus treess have tons of fruit on them now. My banana trees also product bananas every year and ripen.

waccamatt those are great looking Mexican fans you have. I never have seen them that far north. Great job! Is that an oleander I see too?

DruidCity I'd think even that far north you'd be able to grow a European Fan Palm in the ground? I've read where they are hardy to about 10 degrees.

Those queen palms in the opening thread, will not survive the winter even on the ocean. I see only a few grow to maturity here in Tally. They must take them in every winter or just replace them. I've seen queens in the ground in Provincetown, MA before. I've also seen many windmills in Charlotte neighborhoods. New Orleans is in zone 9a south of the lake and growing date palms there is really no big deal. I've seen many queen palms there b4 too.

And yes some of my trees are in a wrong zone and maybe their time is limited, but to me that is what makes it fun!

[waccamatt]

waccamatt those are great looking Mexican fans you have. I never have seen them that far north. Great job! Is that an oleander I see too?

Thanks Poonther, yes, you did spot some Oleanders in my yard. They have all survived temperatures down to about 9 degrees F and up to 6 inches of snow. I have found that the lighter the color of the bloom, the less burning occurs during the winter. In fact, the dark magenta bloom Oleanders almost completely die back every winter, but come back very nicely in the spring. Believe it or not, the magenta Oleanders were STILL blooming until a few days ago in early December. This is amazing to me as we have had numerous hard freezes over the last month and we've been as cold as about 24 so far. I bet you could even get a Canary Island Date to survive in Tallahassee. I've been tempted to see if I could raise one here, as I love them, but I think that would be tempting fate. Since I've lived in Columbia it has been as cold as 2 below zero. I am hopeful that since these plants are now older they could survive a brief episode at that temperature. Do you have pictures of your palms?

You guys in Columbia look to be on the cusp of zone 7b and 8a and I bet those in the urban core get the urban heating to make them a zone 8a????

That is correct, also. Columbia is in an interesting area where you can have wide differences in climate over just a few miles. Just about 10 miles south of downtown is Congaree National Park with alligators and swampland. About 10 miles west of downtown is Peachtree Rock, the only known site where plants native of the beach, mountains and desert live in one place. Would you believe that cacti grow naturally there? As far as climate zones, the northwest suburbs are in the piedmont at zone 7b and the southeast suburbs are in the coastal plain at 8a. Downtown is probably in 8a because of the heat island effect. I live in a valley just north of downtown and the colder morning temps probably put me in 7a.

[Martinman]

Many of the street trees in Albany Georgia are palm trees but given its location, thats not all that surprising.

[DruidCity]

"DruidCity I'd think even that far north you'd be able to grow a European Fan Palm in the ground? I've read where they are hardy to about 10 degrees."

I probably will plant mine out when it gets larger. It is also one of the best for growing in a pot, though,

because of the small size, slow growth, and adaptability.

I've seen a couple of them in the ground at in Birmingham, which is just slightly colder than Tuscaloosa,

that have taken a little foliage damage during the coldest winters.

A few other ornamental plants I like growing here :

Thomasville Citrangequat - Survived 5F when it was young with foliage damage, but gets no damage most winters. It produced fruit for me this year for the first time. I also have an Ichang Lemon that I got the same year, but it hasn't fruited. It did bloom this year, but had a tree branch fall on it and knock it off from Katrina.

Yuccas, Agaves, Cacti, Dasylirion, Nolina - Many of these do just fine. I've seen Agaves in town with bloom spikes over 10 feet tall.

Aspidistra, ginger lilies, aroids, hardy bottlebrush, bananas (I haven't gotten any mature fruit on mine, but I heard about someone who had one in a semi-protected location by a swimming pool that produced edible fruit), loquat (my tree produces fruit), and Beschorneria (have had nice blooms on these).

I like Oleanders, and someone on the next street has had one for like 20 years, but I don't have 'em in my yard because of the toxicity.

[sleepy]

Aspidistra, ginger lilies, aroids, hardy bottlebrush, bananas (I haven't gotten any mature fruit on mine, but I heard about someone who had one in a semi-protected location by a swimming pool that produced edible fruit), loquat (my tree produces fruit), and Beschorneria (have had nice blooms on these).

Musa Basjoo banana trees--a Japanese variety--are sold as cold-hardy to minus 20 with proper mulching. I live in a horticultural Zone 4 in MN and grow one, but dig it up and take it in during winter, basically because I'm too lazy to mulch and every so often it gets below minus 20. But in most of the South, I'd imagine it would do fine with little care.

I see 10-15 foot banana trees growing all over Memphis. When it freezes, they just grow back, just like they do in New Orleans.

[Lady Celeste]

I have two Canary Island Date palms, two Queen Palms and a Phoenix dactylifera. While I love palm trees, I will say that it can be a finanical burden to grow them. The Carnaries and the Queens cannot take really low temperatures period. I got the idea for having palms in my landscape from a home on the Chattahoochee River here in Atlanta. Their trees were soooooooo pretty how they lined the driveway leading to the house (for those in Atlanta it's in the Winterthur neighborhood off of New Northside Dr. in Sandy Springs.) I figured that if they could have such pretty palms...and not those annoying fan palms like I normally see, then I can have them too. It was after I made the investment (the Canaries are pricey) that my brother, who is a landscape architect, tells me that I should not have bought them. Four years later, they are still living but it is a drain....it's like sending children to a nice private school.

It would have almost been cheaper to just move to Florida.

I have been told that Butia Capitata would be a good bet for the Atlanta area. There are however many fan palms as ornamental trees on various homes here in Atlanta.

[The_sandlapper]

This is wild there sure are alot of people that know about palm trees on here! I've seen a few palms/palmettos in Columbus, GA as well.

[DruidCity]

Re: Musa Basjoo - Yes, that's the very hardiest & IMO the very best.

I see a pink-flowered banana variety grown the most commonly here & is the kind that makes the edible fruits. There's also a variety of banana with purple splotches on the leaves that's hardy, and I saw a variety of hardy banana with bright pink ornamental bananas on it. There's a new hardy banana variety from the Hilamalayas that's supposed to be very hardy and very large plant (much like basjoo), but I'm out of space to try it.

Musella is a small banana relative that I like a lot, too. Mine has had a bloom on it since May, and I've had complete strangers knock on my door to ask WTF that weird plant is in my front yard

[waccamatt]

I have two Canary Island Date palms, two Queen Palms and a Phoenix dactylifera. While I love palm trees, I will say that it can be a finanical burden to grow them. The Carnaries and the Queens cannot take really low temperatures period. I got the idea for having palms in my landscape from a home on the Chattahoochee River here in Atlanta. Their trees were soooooooo pretty how they lined the driveway leading to the house (for those in Atlanta it's in the Winterthur neighborhood off of New Northside Dr. in Sandy Springs.) I figured that if they could have such pretty palms...and not those annoying fan palms like I normally see, then I can have them too. It was after I made the investment (the Canaries are pricey) that my brother, who is a landscape architect, tells me that I should not have bought them. Four years later, they are still living but it is a drain....it's like sending children to a nice private school.

It would have almost been cheaper to just move to Florida.

I have been told that Butia Capitata would be a good bet for the Atlanta area. There are however many fan palms as ornamental trees on various homes here in Atlanta.

Wow, I didn't think a Canary Island Date would grow as far north as Atlanta. Columbia is in the same climate zone so maybe I will try to grow one too. What do you do in the winter, Celeste? Anything special?

Many of the street trees in Albany Georgia are palm trees but given its location, thats not all that surprising.

Where is everyone?

[upstate29650]

I know Urban Planet is full of people from SC & GA (myself included)...but these aren't really exotic places for palms, in the grand scheme. Sticking to the original point of the topic, I'd like to hear from people in colder, maybe even landlocked states, who are sucessfully gorwing palms.

[Hankster]

It's wonderful to look at all these posts of palm trees, and to know that they can grow in more Northern climes. I love the look of palm tree.

However, I have a story to tell of seeing the most northern palm tree I've ever seen by far. I challenge anyone out there to beat this! About 15 years ago I was vacationing in Scotland, yes Scotland. I went to a botanical garden on the extreme northwestern coast of Scotland. It was July and the afternoon temperature was in the low's 50's. The wind was blowing about 20-30 miles an hour and I was wearing a heavy coat. But there to my absolute amazement, alive and growing, was a stunted palm tree, maybe 8 to 10 feet tall. It was located at 58 degrees north latitude! That's the same latitude as Northern Labrador, the center of Hudson Bay, Canada, or some of the Glacial fjords of Alaska. It was truly astounding, and something I'll never forget. I asked the management of the garden how on earth did they get a palm tree to grow there, and their answer was that the area was warmed by the Gulf stream current. It never ever got very warm there, but it rarely ever got very cold there either. He said that the lowest temperatue ever recorded there was 13 degrees. When I heard that it all made sense. It's been lower than 13 degrees in many parts of Florida, so why couldn't a palm tree grow in Northern Scotland?

[Aporkalypse]

It's wonderful to look at all these posts of palm trees, and to know that they can grow in more Northern climes. I love the look of palm tree.

However, I have a story to tell of seeing the most northern palm tree I've ever seen by far. I challenge anyone out there to beat this! About 15 years ago I was vacationing in Scotland, yes Scotland. I went to a botanical garden on the extreme northwestern coast of Scotland. It was July and the afternoon temperature was in the low's 50's. The wind was blowing about 20-30 miles an hour and I was wearing a heavy coat. But there to my absolute amazement, alive and growing, was a stunted palm tree, maybe 8 to 10 feet tall. It was located at 58 degrees north latitude! That's the same latitude as Northern Labrador, the center of Hudson Bay, Canada, or some of the Glacial fjords of Alaska. It was truly astounding, and something I'll never forget. I asked the management of the garden how on earth did they get a palm tree to grow there, and their answer was that the area was warmed by the Gulf stream current. It never ever got very warm there, but it rarely ever got very cold there either. He said that the lowest temperatue ever recorded there was 13 degrees. When I heard that it all made sense. It's been lower than 13 degrees in many parts of Florida, so why couldn't a palm tree grow in Northern Scotland?

You're right. There are a couple of commonly grown species used in places like Little Rock, Nashville, and Washington DC that can tolerated 0-5 deg weather. One commonly used and hardy one is the Windmill Palm. It's really the minimum temperature reached each year and that's barely different than places like Dallas and North Carolina where palms are not the norm but are common.

[Mith242]

Yuccas, Agaves, Cacti, Dasylirion, Nolina - Many of these do just fine. I've seen Agaves in town with bloom spikes over 10 feet tall.

Ah now you're speaking my language. Guess I've never been a big palm fan. Maybe it's just because I've never been around them much. But I do like cacti, agaves and yuccas quite a bit. I also know that yuccas are native in quite a few areas. Not sure how large of an area compared to palms but they are here in northwest Arkansas. Although many are ornamentals there are some natives ones even this far north.

[Lady Celeste]

Wow, I didn't think a Canary Island Date would grow as far north as Atlanta. Columbia is in the same climate zone so maybe I will try to grow one too. What do you do in the winter, Celeste? Anything special?

Where is everyone?

Well I found out after I had purchase them that even Savannah might be too far north for Canaries. You may regret trying to grow a Canary. I bought them from a dealer in Houston and I could have sworn I told him I was having them shipped to Atlanta but he must have not heard until the payment was recieved. In order for them to grow, they are planted in 30 gallon planters and these are placed in the ground. Theya re put out in March as they can take temperatures down to 26 degrees or so but only for one day. When they are in their holes in ground I just cover with light mulch to hide the planters. Lots-o-maganese and southern exposure.

When it starts to get cold, they are taken out of the ground and stored in controlled climate storage. Right now they are only 8 feet tall so it's not very hard to store. Pikes Nursery or I'm sure any nursery can store them for you for a "small" fee. Canaries can grow to great heights but they are not the fastest growers. When they become too big, I have a friend in Jacksonville who has pormised to take them.....unless of course I'm living in Boca first. They are very pretty. When I visit relatives in San Diego, I see them all the time. Good luck with your endeavor though Waccamatt.....if you are a lover of green things that grow then it will be fun....albeit time consuming.

A full grown Canary can cost you $6000 but they are hardiest when bought as larger specimens.

[ironchapman]

Where is everyone?

Albany is not exactly known for its street life

Here's a UP Thread about it

I had a cousin with a green thumb of sorts who figured she'd try a Canary palm once a few years back. Unfortunately, the winter weather got to it before she could. Those canaries are a lot of hard work to take care of!

[waccamatt]

A full grown Canary can cost you $6000 but they are hardiest when bought as larger specimens.

I think I'll spend that money on a few vacations where I can see large ones in person, instead!

[Lady Celeste]

A full grown Canary can cost you $6000 but they are hardiest when bought as larger specimens.

I think I'll spend that money on a few vacations where I can see large ones in person, instead!

Exactly, you can invest in a timeshare in Orlando and see all the palm trees you want. I will add though that you can get a 3 footer for about $125. They aren't that expensive.

[monsoon]

It's wonderful to look at all these posts of palm trees, and to know that they can grow in more Northern climes. I love the look of palm tree.

However, I have a story to tell of seeing the most northern palm tree I've ever seen by far. I challenge anyone out there to beat this! About 15 years ago I was vacationing in Scotland, yes Scotland. I went to a botanical garden on the extreme northwestern coast of Scotland. It was July and the afternoon temperature was in the low's 50's. The wind was blowing about 20-30 miles an hour and I was wearing a heavy coat. But there to my absolute amazement, alive and growing, was a stunted palm tree, maybe 8 to 10 feet tall. It was located at 58 degrees north latitude! That's the same latitude as Northern Labrador, the center of Hudson Bay, Canada, or some of the Glacial fjords of Alaska. It was truly astounding, and something I'll never forget. I asked the management of the garden how on earth did they get a palm tree to grow there, and their answer was that the area was warmed by the Gulf stream current. It never ever got very warm there, but it rarely ever got very cold there either. He said that the lowest temperatue ever recorded there was 13 degrees. When I heard that it all made sense. It's been lower than 13 degrees in many parts of Florida, so why couldn't a palm tree grow in Northern Scotland?

Even though it is very far north, much of the UK's winter growing area is located in a zone that would equate to US agricultural growing zone 8 where you find Palmettos in the South. You can thank the gulf stream for that. It dumps our left over Southern heat onto Europe. In comparison much of the South is in 7 or lower where you normally don't see any palm trees. Charlotte and Atlanta, for example are in Zone 7.

Celeste, your palms sound lovely.

[LJinPA]

I'm still curious to know what the deal is with the ones I see all over Rehoboth and Ocean City, MD... It's not just one I see them a lot around the hotels. They all look like Queen Palms which are less hardy than Palmettos. Most are small and the tree is fast growing, this is why I would suspect they may be annuals? These trees are all outside too and not in pots.

Here's an interesdting article about putting them in Peoria, IL but now these are obviously protected:

http://www.peoriachiefs.com/news/?id=2490

[poonther]

Absolutely no way a queen palm (Syagrus romanzoffiana) could survive a few winters (maybe one if it was incredibly mild) in MD, even right on the shore. I've seen queen's die of cold damage in North Florida/The Panhandle when they were right on the beach. I also saw tons of them die in Central Florida and the northern reaches of inland South Florida in the big freezes of '83 & '89.

Either they are :

-not queens, maybe even some type of odd odd hybrid

-treated as annuals and replanted every year

-dug up and stored in a greenhouse in the winter

-have some type of electricial heated coils (like w/tile floors) wrapped around their roots covered up w/the dirt, but I'd still think the palm head/crown would die like this.

Here's what my favorite palm site (floridata.com) says about their hardiness:

"Hardiness:USDA Zones 9-11. Cold damage appears at 25 F, the plant freezes and dies at about 20 F."

And you are right about your annual theory LJinPA b/c here's what that same site says about them:

"Queen palm is a beautiful palm that is inexpensive, easy to find and easy to grow. With a little care a small plant will make a dramatic specimen within a few years."

At best that area of MD is in zone 7B and that's the area w/in a mile of the shore. So queens permanently in the ground there..nah just ain't happening.

[upstate29650]

I'm still curious to know what the deal is with the ones I see all over Rehoboth and Ocean City, MD... It's not just one I see them a lot around the hotels. They all look like Queen Palms which are less hardy than Palmettos. Most are small and the tree is fast growing, this is why I would suspect they may be annuals? These trees are all outside too and not in pots.

Here's an interesdting article about putting them in Peoria, IL but now these are obviously protected:

http://www.peoriachiefs.com/news/?id=2490

The pic in the article shows Palmettos (Sabal Palms)....not Queens.