The History of the Triangle

[JeffC]

For an even older home nearby accross the road from melting pot in teh Charlie Gaddy Woods, is the Crabtree athanial Jones house from about 1820. His plantation was camp Crabtree during the civil war and the family cemetery is in the yard of a house behind vitamin shoppe.

I've wondered what was at the top of that hill...are you saying there is an actual 1820 house up there, or just the site of one? Why isn't it listed on the Wake National Register of Historic Places list?

This is Gaddy the developer, not the former Channel 5 anchor, right?

[Jones_]

I've wondered what was at the top of that hill...are you saying there is an actual 1820 house up there, or just the site of one? Why isn't it listed on the Wake National Register of Historic Places list?

This is Gaddy the developer, not the former Channel 5 anchor, right?

Yep....listed as Jones, Crabtree, House....there is some debate about the age of the house....it is definitely Federal in style, and the application had 1790 I think even though the book I have states no proof before 1820 can be found.

Its easiest to see from the road adjacent to woods north of it...I think there is a small (modern)hotel back there.....I took some 35 mm of it a few years ago but have yet to scan them. Its lived in so I don't want to tresspass too much. Its in ok but not awesome shape. Supposedly Isaac Hunters Tavern was down the hill from here...not near the sign up by St Albans....but with all the roads converging here (FON, WF, Louisburg aka St Albans, Isaac Hunters Taver, Crabtree Jones plantation and during the civil war camp carolina, the various mills that sat at the Wake Forest Road/Crabtree Creek Bridge, this was quite an active area...I wonder if it even had a village name of something....the artifacts never found must be quite numerous....

[ChiefJoJo]

I must say, it's great to have you guys as a historical resource... I've learned so much just from reading your posts. A historical tour of significant sites in the area would sure be great...

[JeffC]

Yep....listed as Jones, Crabtree, House....there is some debate about the age of the house....it is definitely Federal in style, and the application had 1790 I think even though the book I have states no proof before 1820 can be found.

Its easiest to see from the road adjacent to woods north of it...I think there is a small (modern)hotel back there.....I took some 35 mm of it a few years ago but have yet to scan them. Its lived in so I don't want to tresspass too much. Its in ok but not awesome shape. Supposedly Isaac Hunters Tavern was down the hill from here...not near the sign up by St Albans....but with all the roads converging here (FON, WF, Louisburg aka St Albans, Isaac Hunters Taver, Crabtree Jones plantation and during the civil war camp carolina, the various mills that sat at the Wake Forest Road/Crabtree Creek Bridge, this was quite an active area...I wonder if it even had a village name of something....the artifacts never found must be quite numerous....

I assume this Jones was related somehow to Nathaniel Jones, who was a major landowner in Wake County during this era...he owned land adjacent to the northern edge of Meredith's modern campus (according to a history of Meredith written by a professor there that is posted on the web)..wonder if N. Jones lands extended all the way from there east to Wake Forest Road?

[JeffC]

I never did have a frim handle on when FON realigned to be the through street vs. WF Rd. I think the eastern chunk of Bland was just a simple connector between what at that time were two dirt roads called Wake Forest Rd and Loiusburg...though since WF was us 1 in the 1950's it may have been paved in concrete like the piece north of 540 still is near Cheviot Hills. Anyway, Eeast gate looks like it was developed in the 60's (like Quail Hollow up the road). I follow your reasoning but tend to think that 'western' Bland was shifted west a bit at some point....those intersections pre-automobile were "v" shaped and I would guess maybe as early as the 1920's but surly by the construction of Eastgate (60's or whenever) Bland was swung around to form a right-angled intersection with the then through-traffic Wake Forest Road. Hardimont looks to have been added without regard to the alignment of FON for through traffic though it could have been at or near the same time.

Driving by there yesterday I took a good look. There are two service stations on the SW corner of the Hardimont/New Hope and FON intersection. I think the one directly on the corner was built later, on top of the old FON. If you look at the bank building in the parking lot of Eastgate (behind this corner service station, it is tilted in an odd fashion that lines up with the direct line of Bland across the Eastgate parking lot and the "new" corner service station (the other station is the prealignment corner service station). If you look at the parcel maps on Wake County's IMAPs site, the original route of Bland/FON is pretty obvious.

[Jones_]

Ah, the parcel maps are a great resource that I do not use enough...I will have to check it out in a sec.

Regarding Joneses...there were three Nathanial Jones in Wake County all with made up middle name......Crabtree, White Plains and I foreget the third....during this era Nathanial "Crabtree" Jones cold very well have had land extend towards the current Meredith grounds as plantations (well, land holdings anyway, it was hard to work a plantation in central Wake) still were several thousand acres each. I would be interested to read this prof's papers as I don't have a great grasp of exactly where early plantation boundaries were......i.e. I have read that Henry Lane's (before Moses Mordecai owned Mordecai house) plantation extended to Five Points...buts thats as much as I know without spending time at archives.

[Jones_]

I must say, it's great to have you guys as a historical resource... I've learned so much just from reading your posts. A historical tour of significant sites in the area would sure be great...

glad to....the wrecking ball and neglect have limited the possibilities a little but I am sure I can come up with like three sites close toegether that require some minor woods walking....

[JeffC]

Ah, the parcel maps are a great resource that I do not use enough...I will have to check it out in a sec.

I would be interested to read this prof's papers as I don't have a great grasp of exactly where early plantation boundaries were

Evidently, the professor had as much trouble with documentation of Jones as you have (he mentions lack of primary sources in the paper)

Meredith land history

[ChiefJoJo]

From the Govt Complex topic:

Its the parking lot on the block with the Methodist Church, north of the church and accross Jones from Caswell Square. Currently the old YWCA stands there too.

Why are there buildings on Caswell Square anyway? and Burke Square for that matter (the Gov's Mansion)? I heard that the Governor's Mansion was located where the Mem Auditorium is now and was seiged by Sherman's Army in 1865... after the war, the state thought it was tainted by the Yanks, and so they built the new one on Burke Square... at least that's what I heard.

I know this would never happen, but it would be cool to somehow reclaim Caswell Square. Burke? Well, at least it's mostly green space, even if we never get to use it.

[RaleighRob]

Yes, actually the current governor's residence is the FOURTH official one, according to this link: http://www.ncsu.edu/midlink/dec98/monu/lig...k/executive.htm

The first, of course, was Tryon Palace. The second, which hardly anyone knows about, was at the corner of Hargett & Fayetteville Streets. (That one was very brief.) The third, was at the Memorial Auditorium site, and vacated after the civil war. Then finally, the fourth and current one on Blount.

[JeffC]

One of the buildings on old Caswell Square is the Caswell Bldg....not sure why they built on this square, but I know the building on the corner that is now being restored was, I believe, originally built to house the Gov. Morehead School for the Blind.

As for Burke Square, I think the Governor's Mansion (built 1891) replaced another house on that site...what does the 1872 Drie Map show on that site?

[Jones_]

One of the buildings on old Caswell Square is the Caswell Bldg....not sure why they built on this square, but I know the building on the corner that is now being restored was, I believe, originally built to house the Gov. Morehead School for the Blind.

As for Burke Square, I think the Governor's Mansion (built 1891) replaced another house on that site...what does the 1872 Drie Map show on that site?

Governor's residence #2 was from I think 1793 to 1808 when the Governor's "Palace" on the Memorial Auditorium site was built.

Governor's residence #3, "The Palace" was indeed abandoned after the Civil war but it was not under siege. In fact Raleigh was spared, like Savannah, because it surrendered itself and promised no resistance.

Governor's residence #4 on Burke replaced the Raleigh Acadamy, an all boys school, sort of a forrunner to a city high school. At one time every one of the four squares had school facilities on them. Caswell of course had the School for the Deaf and Dumb built in 1848 I think. The original building is visible on Dries map and resembled a castle. It faced McDowell. The recently refurbished Dormitory and also a plain brick building at the NW corner of the block called the Broom and Mattress factory are the only buildngs left from the old school and both were built in 1898. The school moved to Ashe Ave (then known as Avent Ferry Road) soon after, not sure exactly 1903 or so(?).

[ChiefJoJo]

Governor's residence #3, "The Palace" was indeed abandoned after the Civil war but it was not under siege. In fact Raleigh was spared, like Savannah, because it surrendered itself and promised no resistance.

Yeah, seige was a poor choice of words. What I heard was after Sherman occupied the mansion, the state deemed it unfit for the Governor's residence.

[Jones_]

Yeah, seige was a poor choice of words. What I heard was after Sherman occupied the mansion, the state deemed it unfit for the Governor's residence.

Yep, that's correct. On your mention of reclaiming Caswell Square, one of the downtown plans included that as a recommendation for downtown renewal (not sure which plan). Apparently the property folks with the State are at least aware of murmers about some residents in Raleigh wanting the space back.....(the land has always been State land, but Moore and Nash are administered by Raleigh on the State's behalf).......I think the really long range plan for Caswell is to reduce it to the recently refurbished dormitory with the rest open space again and as the other buildings age out replace them offsite......there is no timetable or even solid plan that I know of, and maybe I am only recalling a suggestion I read somewhere so nobody get there hopes up that it will happen this lifetime

[JeffC]

Yep, that's correct. On your mention of reclaiming Caswell Square, one of the downtown plans included that as a recommendation for downtown renewal (not sure which plan). Apparently the property folks with the State are at least aware of murmers about some residents in Raleigh wanting the space back.....(the land has always been State land, but Moore and Nash are administered by Raleigh on the State's behalf).......I think the really long range plan for Caswell is to reduce it to the recently refurbished dormitory with the rest open space again and as the other buildings age out replace them offsite......there is no timetable or even solid plan that I know of, and maybe I am only recalling a suggestion I read somewhere so nobody get there hopes up that it will happen this lifetime

few months ago I had to drop something off at the Cooper Building, the nondescript building fronting McDowell that houses several parts of the Division of Public Health. There is a courtyard of sorts on the interior of that block, most of which has been paved over and turned into parking, but you can tell the faint traces of what was once a more campus-like setting. Of course, wedged between Dawson and McDowell with traffic zooming by on either side, it would be a rather poor site for a park anyway.

[ChiefJoJo]

FYI, if you're ever in DTR and looking for a card, cough syrup, etc, you should check out Hamlin Drugs on E Hargett St, which just turned 100 this week. It's the oldest black-owned drugstore in NC.

[Jones_]

FYI, if you're ever in DTR and looking for a card, cough syrup, etc, you should check out Hamlin Drugs on E Hargett St, which just turned 100 this week. It's the oldest black-owned drugstore in NC.

Historical note...it probably burned with Lightner Arcade. Strangly I have always found this info on the Raleigh Fire Department history website but the specific event of the Lightner Arcade being firebombed has dissappeared. It was part of the rioting after MLK was killed. Wrong history, "corrected" history.....I don't know....

Arcade show below....original Hamlin was immediately to the left in the picture.

Edited August 4, 2007 by Jones133

[ChiefJoJo]

In the story the owner said the building dates to 1907, hence the anniversary. ^ That one is probably where the Moore Bus egress is located.

[Jones_]

The only pic I have seen of the original Hamlin is on paper and not digital and it is clearly a turn of teh century building. The owner must mean the business has been in that location since 1907 but everythiing about the building shown here is modern...facade, masonry facing the bus egress, interior.....Wake County gives a date for the current building as 1963, which is 5 years before the date Lightner Arcade was firebombed on MLK's death April 4, 1968 (it did sit in the egress) so I could be wrong about that theory about Hamlin buring with Lightner.

[JeffC]

I particularly like the little dirt segment of Bland near where it connects to Pacific....there are the remains of a small dam and tailrace from a small mill next to the cemetary. The road story is even better than just this. I am rusty on the most modern parts of it but have figured out the oldest alignments with old and modern maps and placement of old structures and cemetaries.

Hey Jones, I was thinking about this post when I drove down Bland the other day, so my son and I explored the cemetary and looked for remains of any mill. There are some graves from the 1880s in the cemetary, and some that look even older, because the inscriptions can't be read. Interestingly enough, more recent burials (1995-2004 time range) with names that drivers in North Raleigh would recognize from street names (i.e. Norwood) Clearly the relatively modern church building there replaced a much older building. We could not find any trace of any milldam or tailrace...there is a creek just to the north of the cemetary that is culverted under old and new FON, but with summer overgrowth, it was impossible to see down into the creek bed. There is another, smaller creek adjacent to the Southern edge of the cemetary/parking lot behind the church. We'll have to go back in the winter. Clearly not as large and well preserved as the mill remnants up behind the Raleigh Racquet Club I told you about in this thread.

[Jones_]

Hey Jones, I was thinking about this post when I drove down Bland the other day, so my son and I explored the cemetary and looked for remains of any mill. There are some graves from the 1880s in the cemetary, and some that look even older, because the inscriptions can't be read. Interestingly enough, more recent burials (1995-2004 time range) with names that drivers in North Raleigh would recognize from street names (i.e. Norwood) Clearly the relatively modern church building there replaced a much older building. We could not find any trace of any milldam or tailrace...there is a creek just to the north of the cemetary that is culverted under old and new FON, but with summer overgrowth, it was impossible to see down into the creek bed. There is another, smaller creek adjacent to the Southern edge of the cemetary/parking lot behind the church. We'll have to go back in the winter. Clearly not as large and well preserved as the mill remnants up behind the Raleigh Racquet Club I told you about in this thread.

I really want to check out the Raquet Club mill and place it on a map. The one off Bland is definitely very small.....about the size of another one off Oxford drive off Anderson....maybe 6-8 ft wide with the tailrace being about that length also at Bland. The damn is only about 3-4ft tall on the north side of the cemetary almost where the stream exits from under the abandoned part of Bland. What such a small dam was used for I have no idea but Wake County appears to have been littered with them based on an old map I have showing dozens and dozens of them on the tiny branches and runs off the big creeks, Horse, House, Crabtree, Swift, Middle, Walnut. What I thought was interesting about the graves was both the number of post Civil War dates, the apparent African-American names and the fact that there were several clusters of men that all died at very young ages teens to twenties. Either life was that hard with difficult work and no medical care for slave descendants or these guys were lynched. City cemetary has several women this age that probably died in childbirth but it is unusual to find men dying at this age outside of a war.

[JeffC]

I really want to check out the Raquet Club mill and place it on a map.

according to i-maps, this is "Marsh Creek", and the segment of that creek where I found the old mill remnants is between FON (I think that section of FON is on its original route) and the little stub of Old Wake Forest north of Millbrook, which it crosses between Millbrook and where Old Wake Forest veers off its original route and turns into Forest Oaks. Marsh Creek meanders on across Millbrook, Atlantic Ave., through Brentwood (it is the creek running through Brentwood Park), across Capital and then under the 440 Beltline in the vicinity of Yonkers before emptying into Crabtree Creek in a vast forested and undeveloped area of NW ITB Raleigh that I didn't realize was there...

[Atlside]

This is a great blog on downtown Durham. It's got some great images and a really cool video of one of Durham's tallest buildings that was emploded in the middle 1970s.

At one time Durham was larger than Raleigh up until the late 1960s. You can tell this from the images of old Durham.

http://endangereddurham.blogspot.com/2007_02_01_archive.html

Explore the entire blog. There are a lot of good images of old Durham compared to the Durham one can see today. Go to the past months to see other photos of Durham on the blog.

http://endangereddurham.blogspot.com/

[rolly]

Thanks for the link to that blog. Very nice advocate for a great downtown Durham. Lots of work on that website!

[mattm]

Took quite a bit of scrolling to find the video, but it was worth it. It's quite sad how a vibrant city was destroyed in a misguided attempt to "save" it. It reminds me of the joke about one of the besiegers of Constantinople in the middle ages -- pope Urban. He had a giant bombard that knocked down big swaths of the city. Thus, "Urban Renewal".