The History of the Triangle

[Jones_]

I would need a month straight of walking around town and asking questions. I have so many gaps in the things I know or have come up with decent conjecture, it might take a full year to answer all my questions. I come up with ridiculous minutiae that I wonder about. The latest is that I want to scale out the exact location of a Union army officers camp using an old Civil War map made by an army engineer. It should be located behind the Raleigh Bonded warehouse about where Georgetown Road is. I am wondering if Civil War buffs ever located all the various camp sites (many more than just Dix Hill) and scoured for artifacts. There may have been traces of this camp up until the 1950's when the area around Georgetown was developed. All this is very near the DQ 527 talked about. Also there should have been a huge plantation house where the Car dealership is next to the flea market mall. Its drive way came to about the site of the DQ.

Edited July 8, 2008 by Jones133

[richthofen]

Kind of resurrecting an old topic, but I guess this fits here (sort of): regarding the old Tucker Carriage House on St. Mary's Street, descriptions of it I've seen mention that it served the "grand" Tucker mansion, which was demolished in 1968 (I guess to make room for that high-rise apartment/condo building?) However, I've never been able to find a photo or even a drawing of what the Tucker mansion looked like. Does anyone have one they can post? Or, for that matter, depictions of the Boylan or Cameron estate homes? Thanks!

[Jones_]

Kind of resurrecting an old topic, but I guess this fits here (sort of): regarding the old Tucker Carriage House on St. Mary's Street, descriptions of it I've seen mention that it served the "grand" Tucker mansion, which was demolished in 1968 (I guess to make room for that high-rise apartment/condo building?) However, I've never been able to find a photo or even a drawing of what the Tucker mansion looked like. Does anyone have one they can post? Or, for that matter, depictions of the Boylan or Cameron estate homes? Thanks!

I have only seen one picture of the Cameron House, but it sat about in what is now the courtyard of Cameron Court apartments. The Tucker House was built by William Percival, same guy who designed the Montford Hall (Boylan's house) which still stands just over the Boylan bridge. I will post a Sanborn map showing the footprints later, but I don't have any images handy of the two demolished structures you mentioned. As an aside, William Boylan lived in the Joel Lane house before he built Montford Hall.

[JeffC]

I have seen on the coffee tables of some long time Raleigh residents an album of pictures of now demolished Raleigh landmarks called "Forgotten Raleigh" or something like that...it was published by either the Junior League or the Womens Club of Raleigh, probably 20 or 30 years ago. It has pictures of the Tucker House, among many others. There are probably copies of this book at some of the local libraries...

[ChiefJoJo]

Guess i should have posted this earlier, but I enjoyed a street performance of Fayetteville St/Main St by the good folks at Burning Coal Theatre company. They followed some of the interesting characters (Thomas Briggs, William Boylan, Hinsdale, etc) & events on Fayetteville St over the years. It's nice to have local performing artists who take pride in their city and it's history. I realized afterwards that the man who played Thomas Briggs (of Briggs Hardware; the building the city museum now occupies) is Greg Paul of Greg Paul Builders, who have worked on many of the historic restoration projects downtown.

[Jones_]

Thomas Briggs also built many of the homes in Raleigh that were built in the 1870's and 1880's. Oakwood is full of them.

[Spatula]

It's interesting, as a current state student, trying to spot all the buildings that are missing.

Bostian

Clark Labs

Fox Labs

Talley

Price

Stewart

Whitherspoon

the Library

Fountain

Poe

Kamphoefner

Most of Carmichael Gym

the Health Center

I also think it's pretty funny that Caldwell was built after Thompkins and Winston, linking the two into a single giant building.

[Jones_]

The bell from the 1870 courthouse, located where the old Wachovia building now stands between Market and Exchange Plazas, has been in Winston Hall all this time.....speaking of NC State.

[ncwebguy]

When I started at State in '91, the then Student Center Annex (now Witherspoon Student Center) had just opened, moving student goverment and media out of the then-crowded (now Talley) Student Center. The gym expansion (the part with the racquetball courts and indoor rock climbing wall) was newish then too.

And the Health Center was a parking lot for the intramural fields, to say nothing of the new building with the cafe, treadmills, etc. that replaced the old outdoor basketball courts. Or the Softball complex.

The cafeteria is also missing in that photo, though by then Riddick Stadium had been turned int Riddick Parking Lot, so it was taken after the opening of Carter-Finley. Also the library went "up" in two phases -- the first stack was the part perpendicular to Hillsborough and construction probably started soon after this photo was taken. The second stacks is parallel to Hillsborough and created the new access to the brickyard. It opened in the late 80s, maybe 1990.

[JeffC]

It's interesting, as a current state student, trying to spot all the buildings that are missing.

Bostian

Clark Labs

Fox Labs

Talley

Price

Stewart

Whitherspoon

the Library

Fountain

Poe

Kamphoefner

Most of Carmichael Gym

the Health Center

I also think it's pretty funny that Caldwell was built after Thompkins and Winston, linking the two into a single giant building.

Original name of Caldwell when I was there (late 80s, right after it opened) was the Link Bldg., for obvious reasons...

[askmisterbrown]

Remember the Oak City Diner that used to be on Old Wake Forest Rd? And there is still the Oak City Baptist Church on Method Rd. Well, I was snooping around some Raleigh city directories from around 100 years ago, and found: the Oak City Mills (cornmeal), the Oak City Manufacturing Co. (clothing), the Oak City Steam Laundry, the Oak City Club, and even the Oak City Brass Band.

I can only conclude that our nickname used to be "Oak City," which is much better than "City of Oaks," our current nickname. I wonder why it was changed? Perhaps someone thought "City of Oaks" more elegant (wrong criterion) or perhaps because there is actually an Oak City in Martin County, population 313 (too small). Let's go back to "Oak City!"

A sampling of city nicknames:

Durham

[Jones_]

Since I could find neither a thread on Empire Properties or on Wilmington Street....the old corrugated metal covering over Brass Grill is starting to be taken off. The building has 9 bays, set in groups of three. From the inside and from a satellite image its clearly three separate old buildings reclad to look like one. The vintage of the 9 bays being exposed looks 1910's to 1920's...a Sanborn map shows the separate buildings in 1884 but not in Drie of 1872 so a reclad 40 years after being first built could make sense. It looks so so much better just to have that facade exposed...some may roll their eyes but it makes me giddy to see it...

[ChiefJoJo]

Since I could find neither a thread on Empire Properties or on Wilmington Street....the old corrugated metal covering over Brass Grill is starting to be taken off. The building has 9 bays, set in groups of three. From the inside and from a satellite image its clearly three separate old buildings reclad to look like one. The vintage of the 9 bays being exposed looks 1910's to 1920's...a Sanborn map shows the separate buildings in 1884 but not in Drie of 1872 so a reclad 40 years after being first built could make sense. It looks so so much better just to have that facade exposed...some may roll their eyes but it makes me giddy to see it...

Yep. I saw it today. They have one more row of metal to go and then remove the horizontal bars over the windows and it will be fully exposed. I can only assume Empire has plans for the 2nd floor. Now, if only the buildings on the opposite side of Wilmington St would do the same (renovate), we'd be in business.

There may be an argument to be made that investing now in somewhat inexpensive (if complex to permit) historic renovations may prepare landlords for the recession recovery, perhaps by 2010 when they might be complete and available for lease.

[ncwebguy]

I wanted to get pictures of it coming down, but they got pretty far pretty quickly. And with the sun going down earlyish, I haven't had a good chance to get some good shots.

But it will look neat to have the windows exposed again. When Empire bought that property, it was just a matter of when something like this would happen. And if there is "dead" space on the second floor, the cost of rennovations will easily be recouped in rent. It will be a good compliment to the Hargett block around the corner between Wilmington and Blount. The new signs for Landmark Tavern and the salon are a nice touch on Hargett as well.

This work is similar to the exerior rennovations on the former McCrory's on Fayetville Street. Looking at that space now (just north of Port City Java), it is hard to imagine why anyone thought putting the metal up was a good idea other than cheap maintenance.

The rennovation next to Slim's across Wilmington Street is well underway, and the plywood there is (hopefully) hiding a nice new facade. There already has been significant work done on its rooftop bar/patio close to the Moore Square parking deck. Taz isn't going to win any design awards, but it always seems to be busy and gives the area an around the clock presence.

[askmisterbrown]

Since I could find neither a thread on Empire Properties or on Wilmington Street....the old corrugated metal covering over Brass Grill is starting to be taken off. The building has 9 bays, set in groups of three. From the inside and from a satellite image its clearly three separate old buildings reclad to look like one. The vintage of the 9 bays being exposed looks 1910's to 1920's...a Sanborn map shows the separate buildings in 1884 but not in Drie of 1872 so a reclad 40 years after being first built could make sense. It looks so so much better just to have that facade exposed...some may roll their eyes but it makes me giddy to see it...

This was the magnificent Kline & Lazarus Department Store, at which was sold "Clothing, Dry Goods, Shoes, Hats, Gents' Furnishings and Ladies' Ready to Wear." At its peak, Kline & Lazarus occupied all the bays, plus the building on the corner of Hargett. I happen to know this because Jacob Kline lived in my house on E. Lane St. His business partner and brother-in-law Goodman Lazarus lived across the street. In the early 20th Century, the 500 and 600 blocks of E. Lane St. were called "Little Jerusalem" and were populated by Jewish merchants and their families, mostly immigrants from Eastern Europe.

Bravo to Empire Properties for another wonderful project!

[Gard]

On the topic of streetcars, I got to looking around and stumbled across this one of the street car on Hillsborough, across from NCSU.

http://flickr.com/photos/ncsu_scrc/2899345736/

It won't let me post the pic for some reason, so I just included the link...

[Gard]

I also found this interesting picture of the Commercial Bank building under construction around 1912 on the site that RBC Plaza now stands:

Edited February 6, 2009 by Gard

[Jones_]

On the topic of streetcars, I got to looking around and stumbled across this one of the street car on Hillsborough, across from NCSU.

http://flickr.com/photos/ncsu_scrc/2899345736/

It won't let me post the pic for some reason, so I just included the link...

Nice find.

Edit: also a link to several streetcar history's including Raleigh. SHort but still interesting.

Edited February 7, 2009 by Jones133

[ChiefJoJo]

There will be a public meeting to discuss the future of the Warehouse District later this month... also to include discussion of a potential historic overlay district.

On Monday, March 30, the Raleigh Historic Districts Commission will hold a community forum to discuss a historic overlay district study report prepared for the downtown warehouse section, or Depot National Register District. The Depot District was recommended by the city

[Jones_]

There are such a very few buildings left in the warehouse district worth much.

Union Station is the oldest though its greatly modified. Boyettes Automotive (the right half of it), the NC cottonseed oil buildings (Sin, William Cozart and Centerline Productions) the Clearscapes building and The Office are it for the traditional warehouse area. There is an old blacksmith shop (with the big red door across from Deep South) and the Deep South strip of storefronts are also interesting. Humble Pie is newer circa 1940's from what I can tell, as are many others such as Design Box, CAM, Buckhead, Flying Saucer and of course Dillion excepting Five Star. The Pit is a strange mix of what looks like salvaged materials from an older building with new construction joints and fittings.

[RaleighRob]

This was originally the Melrose Knitting Company mill. I do not know the exact date of construction but the original portion shows up in a 1903 Sanborn Map. (the eastern facade is clearly newer in your picture)

Here is the map. Sanborn_1903_Sheet_23__Hillsborough_Saunders_.pdf

I read some of the EIS that TTA originally submitted and this is not in the footprint for the station. In fact TTA had to prove the station would not harm the building from what I read. Its currently owned by a guy from Afghanistan (I attended a function there once, great time!). I also know the guy who built and installed all those windows and according to him the owner is sitting on it waiting to cash in on its location next to the station site. All hearsay, but thats all I know.

Looks like he's starting to do something with it: http://dtraleigh.com/2009/03/the-old-melro...pany-warehouse/

[Jones_]

Yeah, I saw that the palates of old bricks were being used to make a nice wall around the parking area. So much for 100+ year old bricks not being worth anything. The yellow building (c 1914)and Jones and Harrington is having its bricks put on palates too.

[Francesca]

Does anyone remember seeing some recent pictures of the demo of Lawyers Building and uncovering remnants of the old State Theater on the first floor? I saw them on one of the Raleigh blogs I believe, and now can't find them to save my life!

Edited March 20, 2009 by Francesca

[JeffC]

I have read some bits about Raleigh High School...I want to say it was where the City Parking Deck on Morgan St is but am not sure. I know immediately before the Parking deck the Union Bus Station was located there approximately in the 1940's and 50's(facing the back of Hillsborough Place). Hugh Morson High School was on the block formerly created by Morgan/Hargett/Bloodworth/Person (warehouse portion). The federal complex now takes up two former city blocks. Morson HS is often wrongly attributed to being on the site of the current post office. It operated from 1925 to 1955 as a high school and then a middle school before being sold to the feds in 1965. Raleigh High School would have had to have been built when Bauer was working so 1880's to about 1900 is the time frame.

I still know very little about Ligon the man. The school gets mentioned as the 'other' city high school alongside Broughton and Morson.

Has anyone run across any pictures of old Hugh Morson High School? I was driving down Bloodworth today behind the Federal complex, and noted that there is a one block "Morson Street" that dead ends into Bloodworth there--I bet that Street originally ended at the front of the school, like the elementary school on St. Marys street behind the college (Wiley, I think?)

EDIT: found some pics at Goodnight Raleigh

Good lord, what a beautiful building. What would people pay to have a loft Condo in a building like that today at that location?

I'm coming to the realization that the 1960s were, collectively, an architectural catastrophe for downtown Raleigh in terms of great buildings lost....

Edited March 30, 2009 by JeffC

[Jones_]

1940's through the 1990's peaking in the 60's I'd say. Only the recent resurgence in downtowns nationwide has sparked widespread recognition and efforts to save historic structures. The City was supposed to get Century Post Office in exchange for Morson but the Feds changed their mind and decided they would just have both. Morson Street is the old east end of Morgan Street....check out google maps and you see it lines up.