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What drives development in Atlanta?


Andrea

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Even though I am not as old as many of you here, I have lived quite a few places in my fair town of Winston in NC. Where we are currently living in a historic section of town called Ardmore, there have been several groups of Hispanics and Blacks that have moved in and have totally trashed the once beautiful homes. We have had several of our (white) neighbors move out to a growing suburb west of town. Many whites (and minorities) like to be with people that respect their own property and don't ruin it. To give yourselves a reality check, tell me, would you want to move to Buckhead for example and be sandwiched in between two "black rapper thugs" homes', where they didn't pick up their trash in their yard, didn't mow their lawn, let their paint peel off their house, and treated their house like it was an extended stay rental motel. I know I wouldn't but what about you? I beleive blacks and hispanics have been stereotyped as people who don't take care of their possesions and don't give a dam*. I realize that there are hard working minorites out there who try their best at life and do the best that they can. Respect and values are taught at home and I beleive if half of the minorities that live in Fulton and Cobb County taught their children those lessons then most of us would not have a problem living next to an Asian, Hispanic, or Black person. My dad's friend lives in an ok house up on Lake Lanier in Gwinnett County and there are several blacks that live around him and they keep up their property really well and he and others don't have a problem with them.

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To give yourselves a reality check, tell me, would you want to move to Buckhead for example and be sandwiched in between two "black rapper thugs" homes', where they didn't pick up their trash in their yard, didn't mow their lawn, let their paint peel off their house, and treated their house like it was an extended stay rental motel.

This attitude demonstrates a big issue with racial stereotypes -- they're so tied up in socioeconomic divisions as well. Assuming it's even true that black people on average take worse care of their homes, is this because they're black? Is it even because of some black cultural characteristic? Or is it simply because poor people in general don't care as much about the aesthetics of their houses, which might not be so great to begin with, or have more important things to worry about?

I guarantee you any "black rapper thugs" who can afford to live in Buckhead would take care of their homes. You don't buy a million-dollar house and let it fall apart. Of course the only "black rappers" who could afford to live in Buckhead to begin with aren't south Fulton "thugs," they're more like Outkast. That's the whole point. And yes, you are racist if you assume that the black couple moving into that million-dollar house is a couple of thugs. That's totally unsubstantiated.

For a little experiment, go up to north Forsyth county and see what kind of state some of the homes are in. Those aren't black people; however, they may be less than middle-class folks. Somehow I think the majority of people in Buckhead would be more tolerant of redneck neighbors than black ones though. In fact I've known quite a few. But that's another story.

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This attitude demonstrates a big issue with racial stereotypes -- they're so tied up in socioeconomic divisions as well. Assuming it's even true that black people on average take worse care of their homes, is this because they're black? Is it even because of some black cultural characteristic? Or is it simply because poor people in general don't care as much about the aesthetics of their houses, which might not be so great to begin with, or have more important things to worry about?

I guarantee you any "black rapper thugs" who can afford to live in Buckhead would take care of their homes. You don't buy a million-dollar house and let it fall apart. Of course the only "black rappers" who could afford to live in Buckhead to begin with aren't south Fulton "thugs," they're more like Outkast. That's the whole point. And yes, you are racist if you assume that the black couple moving into that million-dollar house is a couple of thugs. That's totally unsubstantiated.

For a little experiment, go up to north Forsyth county and see what kind of state some of the homes are in. Those aren't black people; however, they may be less than middle-class folks. Somehow I think the majority of people in Buckhead would be more tolerant of redneck neighbors than black ones though. In fact I've known quite a few. But that's another story.

No need for an argument, but are you saying i'm a racist? :blink: "Black rapper thugs" was a figure of speech and maybe I should've said "black people" but still that's all besides the point. Oh and by the way are you talking about my Forsyth County up here in NC or the one north of Atlanta?

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To give yourselves a reality check, tell me, would you want to move to Buckhead for example and be sandwiched in between two "black rapper thugs" homes', where they didn't pick up their trash in their yard, didn't mow their lawn, let their paint peel off their house, and treated their house like it was an extended stay rental motel. I know I wouldn't but what about you?

Speaking of reality checks, would it be any different if you moved to Buckhead and were sandwiched in between two "white orthopedic surgeons" homes', where they didn't pick up their trash in their yard, didn't mow their lawn, let their paint peel off their house, and treated their house like it was an extended stay rental motel?

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No need for an argument, but are you saying i'm a racist? :blink: "Black rapper thugs" was a figure of speech and maybe I should've said "black people" but still that's all besides the point. Oh and by the way are you talking about my Forsyth County up here in NC or the one north of Atlanta?

I find your analogy very interesting. In your initial post you used the term "black rapper thugs." When questioned about it, you say above that you should have said "black people." Your use of "black rapper thugs" to describe black people is not in of itself enough to label anyone racist but it is terribly telling of a person's mindset. Also, the title of the topic is "What drives development in Atlanta?" I don't think Dixiecup would use Forsyth County, NC to explain growth in Atlanta. One would summize that he was referring to Forsyth County, GA.....as it's in metro Atlanta.

I will not allow this exercise to become one's own avenue for the furthering of negative stereotypes of any race, sex or sexual orientation. Period, end of discussion.

That being said, I asked the question because I wanted to understand what people meant by living around people like them. I can only offer my own personal view. When I say I want to live around people like me, that's not limited to a certain race, gender or sexual orientation. I tend to want to live around people who have similar interest as myself. Being a parent, schools are very important to me and I want to be around people who share that same jest. A strong and orderly neighborhood is important to me so I want to be around people who the appearance and activities of their neighborhood is paramount. I could go on and on about things that are important to me but the gist of my saying all this is that you can find people who are like you in all races and people of different sexual orientations. Saying that you want to live around people like you could mean anyone. If you feel more comfortable in living around a certain race then I would prefer people to just say it. It's when you hide behind false pretense is when people start to wonder what are your true thoughts.

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IC, I really appreciate what you're saying but I have a hard time accepting the idea that there is something inherent in human beings that makes them want to segregate by race. Even if that were the case, I don't think we can ignore the profound stigma of race, or the extremely complex sociological, economic and psychological layers which are intertwined with it.

You know, up until a few years before I went off to the University of Georgia, not one single black resident of this state had ever been permitted to enroll there. It didn't matter whether their family had lived in this state for 150 years, whether they had worked the land on their own or as somebody's slave, whether their daddy had fought for the country in wars, or anything else. That's not even the tip of the iceberg. You can't fix all that in a couple of generations.

Let me hasten to add that I'm a dyed-in-the-gray-wool Southerner, whose people came down to Georgia from Virginia in the 1830s, and whose great-great-great-grandpa slogged through the red Georgia mud for General Joe Johnston. I grew up with the South being the butt of every hillbilly and redneck stereotype and I got sick of that a long time ago. Yes, we have a very complex and sad history of racial oppression, although I'm still not too happy to have anybody who hasn't lived through it come down here and lecture me about it.

In any case, while I don't mean to turn this into a big civil rights discussion, I don't believe we can pass off the hugely complex ways that race affects the development of our city by saying, "Oh, it's just human nature for folks to want to be with their own kind."

At this point, I think it would be appropriate to make a plug for an excellent book that addresses such issues entitled "Why Are All the Black Kids Sitting Together in the Cafeteria?" And Other Conversations About Race by Dr. Beverly Daniel Tatum, president of Spelman College. I'd encourage everyone to pick it up and give it an honest read.

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That being said, I asked the question because I wanted to understand what people meant by living around people like them. I can only offer my own personal view. When I say I want to live around people like me, that's not limited to a certain race, gender or sexual orientation. I tend to want to live around people who have similar interest as myself. Being a parent, schools are very important to me and I want to be around people who share that same jest. A strong and orderly neighborhood is important to me so I want to be around people who the appearance and activities of their neighborhood is paramount. I could go on and on about things that are important to me but the gist of my saying all this is that you can find people who are like you in all races and people of different sexual orientations. Saying that you want to live around people like you could mean anyone. If you feel more comfortable in living around a certain race then I would prefer people to just say it. It's when you hide behind false pretense is when people start to wonder what are your true thoughts.

Couldn't have said it better, LC.

You have to wonder why people would say, "I prefer to live near people like myself." It really can mean two things: either the positive statement "I enjoy living near people who share the same interests," or the negative one "I don't want to live near people who aren't like me." The first I respect; the second I think is a sign of an immature attitude.

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This may have been mentioned already, but i didnt read the entire thread.

In addition to race being a factor in the way Atlanta developed, i think that the lack of natural barriers in this area is one of the biggest reasons that Atlanta is so spread out instead of being denser like New York, Chicago, Philadelphia, Boston and other cities with dense cores.

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This may have been mentioned already, but i didnt read the entire thread.

In addition to race being a factor in the way Atlanta developed, i think that the lack of natural barriers in this area is one of the biggest reasons that Atlanta is so spread out instead of being denser like New York, Chicago, Philadelphia, Boston and other cities with dense cores.

That's what makes it unique. You have a choice of whether you want your own personal space. :D

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This may have been mentioned already, but i didnt read the entire thread.

In addition to race being a factor in the way Atlanta developed, i think that the lack of natural barriers in this area is one of the biggest reasons that Atlanta is so spread out instead of being denser like New York, Chicago, Philadelphia, Boston and other cities with dense cores.

I'd say that's true to an extent, but the era in which Atlanta grew most is probably more important than the lack of physical boundaries. Those other cities grew bigger sooner, and so by the time car-oriented development came around there was only so much damage it could do in and near the cities. In Boston for example there is a lot of suburban development that wouldn't be out of place in metro Atlanta, but anywhere within 20 miles or so of the center city has been developed and incorporated for hundreds of years. So while there is room, and there have been housing subdivisions built, they're fitting into the fabric of a community that already existed, unlike Atlanta which grew so rapidly, so suddenly, and so late that most of the area, say outside the perimeter, was up for grabs for development.

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Money and innovative thinking to me, is what makes Atlanta continue to development. Some people up there think outside the box and realize that as time passes, Atlanta must keep up with the times. As ATL grows, more development must take place in order to support that growth. I also think race plays a major factor. Atlanta first blew up when Freaknik came to town, then the Olympics came to Atlanta, and since then, Atlanta has went into outerspace and hasn't looked back since. Tell me something, if Atlanta was rearranged to where SWATS was Buckhead and downtown was 50% ghetto and 50% business/financial, would that make much of a difference?

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I have a question to everybody.....

Your opinion matters so I'm interested in anyone's opinion...especially those old enough to make decisions on where to buy a home. Here's the question:

What does "I want to be around people like me" mean?

or...

What does "I feel more comfortable being/living around people like me" mean?

To me, it means that I want to be around people who take pride in their investment.

I want to live in an area where I feel safe to walk in my neighborhood without being harrassed.

I want to be around people who dont let their children walk the streets at all types of hours, or hang out on the corner with no respect to their neighbors.

and that could be anyone.

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To me, it means I want to be around people who give a damn about their investment. It's retarded to pour all your money into buying a home when you refuse to take care of it.

I want to reside in an area where gunfire isn't the neighborhood soundtrack, drug sales and fights aren't going to destroy the neighborhood.

Most importantly, I want to be with those who have their children come in after 8pm. As deranged as this world is, there's no reason for children to be on the corner at all times of night, especially the wee hours. I wouldn't have my kids out at all hours of the night out of respect for my neighbors, so I hope my neighbors would have sense enough to do the same.

That applies to everyone, both black and white.

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Okay, we've been talking about race and I don't think there's any doubt that racial considerations have had -- and continue to have -- a profound influence on development in Atlanta.

But how about transportation? I'm thinking of two things in particular. One is the arrival of the Interstate Highway system. The construction of the highways themselves and the space they took up demolished vast sections of Atlanta. Their construction also created huge barriers between sections of the city, which could be crossed only at a relative handful of places. Even where you could cross, it was only on large, automobile oriented bridges, so that foot traffic between parts of the city that had been separated by the Interstates was almost non-existent. Finally, the Interstates opened more distant suburbs, well beyond those which been easily accessible via surface streets and the streetcar system.

Secondly, I think the demise of train travel had a huge impact on Atlanta. In the 1950's, the Interstate highways and the dramatic growth of air travel dealt a massive blow to both intrastate and regional rail travel. In the early 1950's, Terminal Station served 83 passenger trains a day, and Union Station served many additional lines. On average, a passenger train arrived in or departed from Atlanta every ten minutes or less. I can remember going to the train stations as a child and they seemed every bit as crowded and bustling as the airport does today.

The trains all came into and left from downtown, however. So I think their departure made the central city much less important in terms of overall development of Atlanta.

Anyway, those are just some of my half-baked thoughts. What do y'all think?

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Okay, we've been talking about race and I don't think there's any doubt that racial considerations have had -- and continue to have -- a profound influence on development in Atlanta.

But how about transportation? I'm thinking of two things in particular. One is the arrival of the Interstate Highway system. The construction of the highways themselves and the space they took up demolished vast sections of Atlanta. Their construction also created huge barriers between sections of the city, which could be crossed only at a relative handful of places. Even where you could cross, it was only on large, automobile oriented bridges, so that foot traffic between parts of the city that had been separated by the Interstates was almost non-existent. Finally, the Interstates opened more distant suburbs, well beyond those which been easily accessible via surface streets and the streetcar system.

Secondly, I think the demise of train travel had a huge impact on Atlanta. In the 1950's, the Interstate highways and the dramatic growth of air travel dealt a massive blow to both intrastate and regional rail travel. In the early 1950's, Terminal Station served 83 passenger trains a day, and Union Station served many additional lines. On average, a passenger train arrived in or departed from Atlanta every ten minutes or less. I can remember going to the train stations as a child and they seemed every bit as crowded and bustling as the airport does today.

The trains call came into and left from downtown, however. So I think their departure made the central city much less important in terms of overall development of Atlanta.

Anyway, those are just some of my half-baked thoughts. What do y'all think?

I think the interstates have had a very important part in Atlanta's history. here's my take on it:

I-75 provided a "pole" for development to start from that helped make North Cobb and Marietta what they are today. It also played an important part in developing SW metro Atlanta (Clayton, Henry, Spalding, etc.)

I-85 did the same for NW metro Atlanta that I-75 did for Cobb. It's development on the SE side of the metro hasn't yet been quite as prominent as I-75's was on the SW side, but places like Coweta County are really taking on growth now.

GA-400 provided a "pole" for development to start from in N. Fulton County.

I-20 has become, especially in Fulton, De Kalb, and Clayton Counties, a dividing line between the richer and poorer & the good and bad sides of the metro (though this is not true in all areas, South Atlanta, East Point, College Park, etc. have been known to have dangerous place in some parts, or atleast so the stereotypes say).

I-285 has really helped define what is intown and what is the metro by giving Atlanta and its inner 'burbs a boundary of sorts between the outer burbs and exurbs.

And we can't forget Hartsfield-Jackson's effect :)

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And we can't forget Hartsfield-Jackson's effect :)

IC, I agree. There's no doubt that development has followed the Interstates. However, Ryan made a great post toward the beginning of this thread which I'd like to repeat in part:

I would ... go further by saying that transportation also plays a key role as to what type of growth occurs. In his book "How Cities Work" Alex Marshell says that (and I am paraphrasing) cities built around rail will naturally be dense and walkable, while cities that are built around the auto (and highways) will inevitibly lead to sprawl. History bears this out.

Rail:

New York

Boston

Chicago

San Francisco

Car:

Atlanta

Dallas

Houston

Vegas

LA

I honestly have mixed feelings about the airport. There is no question that, more than any other single thing, the airport is what has brought Atlanta to prominence, first among Southern cities, and later nationally and internationally. I've enjoyed the convenience of Atlanta's airport connections probably hundreds of times, and have flown out of both the old terminal and Hartsfield Jackson. It's an amazing facility that has brought prosperity to generations of Atlantans.

My reservations have to do with the fact that the rise of air travel coincided with the demise of our robust passenger rail system. The end of the rail system made our area totally dependent on the automobile. That in turn led to uncontrolled sprawl and the many difficult problems associated with that.

So I don't know. Are we better off with a great airport and a car culture that sprawls over 1/3 of the state and gives us the lowest density and some of the longest commutes of any city in the world?

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