Upstate seccession

[krazeeboi]

Any more questions on the true intent of this thread?

Mcashlv, I suggest you make your requests known to Cory Burnell; you may just get your wish after all.

[upstate29650]

I think mcashlv is as pro-Greenville and anti-Columbia as waccamatt is pro-Columbia and anti-Greenville!

I do know Michelin wouldn't be in Cola if North American operations weren't based in Greenville

[Charleston native]

Charleston has never been in the same league culturally as New Orleans. The Big Easy has given us jazz, blues, Tennessee Williams, Lee Harvey Oswald, and according to many great chefs the finest cuisine in America (I'm sure you'll all disagree with that). What great thing ever came out of Charleston? Fact is, Greenville is much more progressive and forward looking than Charleston. Manufacturing creates real, tangible wealth. Service jobs do not and never will. Charleston is a quaint little museum town, filled with snobs, overpriced grits, curiosity shops, and horses that wear diapers. The upstate really would be better off without the rest of the state. Columbia is a government town, those high paying government jobs are paid with tax revenues. Columbia produces nothing, consumes everything. Myrtle Beach is a tourist/retirement town, produces golf courses, sales tax, and nothing much else.

Mcashlv, your lack of knowledge of Chas history completely shows here. Memphis could also lay claim to the birthplace of the blues and/or jazz, anyway! Have you even been to Chas lately?!?!?! The city has been known for many years to produce some of the best cuisine in the Southeast. The DT area is home to many restaurants that have been rated 5-stars and some have even been awarded Mobil's 5-diamond rating.

G'ville more progressive and forward thinking than Chas? I'll give you this, G'ville is not as preoccupied about preserving historic structures when developing its DT area...the flaw of my hometown is that sometimes the people there get wrapped up too much in preserving every "dilapidated, cockroach-infested crack house."

But I think when you make assumptions about Chas like you have, you truly have no idea what the city is like today. If you have been reading any of the other threads in this forum, you will have seen some important facts about my hometown, such as the fact that it leads the state in new jobs. It will be home to a new AIRCRAFT manufacturing plant, a new AUTO plant, and it is becoming a mecca for medical and bio-tech research as well as corporate HQs for tech companies (Blackbaud, BenefitFocus, etc.). If there's one thing I can't stand, it's people like you referring to my hometown as a "quaint little museum town". That statement alone shows just how little you know of Chas, let alone other areas of SC like Cola and MB. Maybe you need to come down there sometime and get clued in to what Chas is now really like.

It would be detrimental for GSA to leave the state because of what other parts of the state offer, especially Chas!! Like I said earlier, where are you going to get your revenue? The tourism areas helped provide G'ville with all of the highway projects it got! The only way GSA or "West Carolina" would fund anything would be to tax its precious companies already located there and tax the residents.

[UrbanSoutherner]

I have to defend Charleston here. The image of Charleston as a backward tourist town is really not particularly accurate any more so that the image of Greenville as sleepy textile town would be accurate.

In terms of progressive attitudes, the City of Charleston is arguably the most progressive municipal government in the state. Mayor Riley has done some great things for Charleston, and he has achieved much national attention over the years for it.

Annexation is another interesting point. While Greenville and Spartanburg are stuck in a "no annexation" state of reality, Charleston and its suburbs are annexing like crazy. Few if any other cities in the state have experienced the kind of population growth that Charleston, North Charleston, Mount Pleasant, Summerville, and Goose Creek have experienced and continue to experience. Charleston's suburb of Mount Pleasant is on the verge of being larger if it is not already larger than Greenville for cry it out loud (of course, North Charleston already is substantially larger). While I would prefer that more of the incorporated areas be in the central city, I will still take incorporated suburbs over unincorporated suburbs since cities are better equipped to deliver urban services. If current trends continue, Charleston will be the largest municipality in the state shortly and will likely remain so for the foreseeable future. That is progressive!

Then there is all the new urbanist activity around Charleston. The Daniel Island developments, the Magnolia project, and most important of all, the Noisette project are all among the most impressive new urbanist projects on the drawing board in SC. That again is quite progressive!

Peninsular Charleston is arguably the most truly urban space in the state of SC. A landscape of suburban manufacturing plants along I-85 is not urban by any meaningful definition of the word. And there is more to downtown Charleston than tourists. You have downtown residents and an urban university of 10,000+ students (an advantage that both Charleston and Columbia have over Greenville). The peninsula's architectural heritage is second to none in the state by far and away. There are numerous architectural landmarks of truly national significance in the city and the surrounding areas (not something I can say for Columbia or Greenville). While Charleston may go overboard at times with historic preservation, most urbanists would agree that historic structures are key feature of truly urban place, and Charleston definitely has that.

Charleston's economy is actually more diversified that just tourism too (although tourism is a vital component of the mix). Many people are clueless as to how big the military presence still is in Charleston in spite of the naval base closing back in the 1990s. The military still has a number of operations there, including the weapons station. Then there are the colleges and universities (College of Charleston, MUSC, Charleston Southern, MUSC, etc.). MUSC is of particular note since Charleston has the potential to grow biotech businesses with MUSC's presence. Then there is the port of course that produces quite a number of high-paying jobs. A number of tech businesses have also opened up shop in the Charleston area.

Lastly, while a lot of tourism-related service jobs are low paying, there are many other service jobs that pay quite well. The service sector covers a wide spectrum of jobs in our economy, and it is the growing sector rather than manufacturing. So while Charleston has more than its share of modestly paid tourism workers, it also has the doctors at MUSC, college professors, high tech workers, the port workers, etc. The reality is that housing in Charleston is more expensive than in Columbia and Greenville. That is certainly not because of all the low-paying tourism jobs. And I do not think the city has that many wealthy retirees. Somebody must be making some good salaries in the Charleston area.

[Charleston native]

^ Well said, Urban...I couldn't have said it any better!

[monsoon]

Peninsular Charleston is arguably the most truly urban space in the state of SC. A landscape of suburban manufacturing plants along I-85 is not urban by any meaningful definition of the word. And there is more to downtown Charleston than tourists. You have downtown residents and an urban university of 10,000+ students (an advantage that both Charleston and Columbia have over Greenville).

Actually using that definition I would argue that Myrtle Beach is far more urban than Charleston. While Charleston does have a 10K students in a relatively small area, Myrtle Beach routinely has 350,000-400,000 people in the same amount of space. Also, most of Charleston's home owners in the Pennisula are absentee. i.e. they don't live in Charleston and instead hold the property for vacation and investment purposes. Most of the year they are gone.

[Spartan]

I disagree monsoon.

Virtually none of those people live in MB either. They stay in those massive hotels along mile after mile of Ocean Blvd. And when they get to MB, they drive everywhere (Broadway at the Beach, various malls, Barefoot Landing, that Pavilion, etc). The population densities in Charleston (of people who live there) are around 10,000 per sq mi on the peninsula south of the Crosstown. The area you speak of with vacation houses is primarily in the South of Broad area, and the tourist area between King-East Bay and between John/Calhoun-Broad. In Charleston, people walk everywhere, and they live in a very real urban environment, unlike MB (where the 'downtown' area is the only place that feels urban). Not only that, Charleston offers a more authentic urban environment, which is not soley based on the dense population downtown, but on the built, urban environment provided by the city.

[mcashlv]

Mcashlv, your lack of knowledge of Chas history completely shows here. Memphis could also lay claim to the birthplace of the blues and/or jazz, anyway! Have you even been to Chas lately?!?!?! The city has been known for many years to produce some of the best cuisine in the Southeast. The DT area is home to many restaurants that have been rated 5-stars and some have even been awarded Mobil's 5-diamond rating.

G'ville more progressive and forward thinking than Chas? I'll give you this, G'ville is not as preoccupied about preserving historic structures when developing its DT area...the flaw of my hometown is that sometimes the people there get wrapped up too much in preserving every "dilapidated, cockroach-infested crack house."

But I think when you make assumptions about Chas like you have, you truly have no idea what the city is like today. If you have been reading any of the other threads in this forum, you will have seen some important facts about my hometown, such as the fact that it leads the state in new jobs. It will be home to a new AIRCRAFT manufacturing plant, a new AUTO plant, and it is becoming a mecca for medical and bio-tech research as well as corporate HQs for tech companies (Blackbaud, BenefitFocus, etc.). If there's one thing I can't stand, it's people like you referring to my hometown as a "quaint little museum town". That statement alone shows just how little you know of Chas, let alone other areas of SC like Cola and MB. Maybe you need to come down there sometime and get clued in to what Chas is now really like.

It would be detrimental for GSA to leave the state because of what other parts of the state offer, especially Chas!! Like I said earlier, where are you going to get your revenue? The tourism areas helped provide G'ville with all of the highway projects it got! The only way GSA or "West Carolina" would fund anything would be to tax its precious companies already located there and tax the residents.

Oh how those Charlestonians love to criticise everyone else--but when somebody turns the heat on them they just can't stand it! Nobody but Charlestonians believe that Charleston has any kind of "cuisine" at all. Hoppin' John? Shrimp n'grits? Frogmore Stew? Ha Ha! Give me a break! Fact: New Orleans has more 5-star restaurants than New York City. MUSC is a second rate medical school. If any school in the South develops a biotech community it will be Duke (a truly first-tier school), not MUSC. Dream on, country boy.

[krazeeboi]

I don't understand why a "South Carolinian" would speak down on the Medical University of South Carolina. The school is located in Charleston but provides services for ALL of South Carolina's residents. And if we want to be honest about it, SC has no "first-tier" schools, not even the Upstate's beloved Clemson and Furman. Yet we do not downgrade the very valuable contributions these schools make to our state. Better a "second-tier" medical university than none at all.

[TheSuperPope]

Oh how those Charlestonians love to criticise everyone else--but when somebody turns the heat on them they just can't stand it! Nobody but Charlestonians believe that Charleston has any kind of "cuisine" at all. Hoppin' John? Shrimp n'grits? Frogmore Stew? Ha Ha! Give me a break! Fact: New Orleans has more 5-star restaurants than New York City. MUSC is a second rate medical school. If any school in the South develops a biotech community it will be Duke (a truly first-tier school), not MUSC. Dream on, country boy.

All I have to say is wow. I usually just read over UrbanPlanet to catch up on whats happening at home (Greenville) while I'm at school in Columbia. But, I have never read such a useless arguement. The original intent of this thread wasn't to criticize other parts of our state, but just to entertain the idea of the upstate receeding. As a matter of fact, I really think Charleston is an amazing city with loads of potential to be one of the south's next greats. MUSC might not be the best med school in the south, but at least Charleston has a med school. Honestly, can we just get back on subject and quit with the uncalled for criticisms of the rest of the state.

That having been said, I've always liked to entertain the idea of north and south carolina just becoming one large state with Charlotte being the capitol. I know it probably would never happen, but it would just be amazing to have one large Carolina. Ideas?

[ironchapman]

That having been said, I've always liked to entertain the idea of north and south carolina just becoming one large state with Charlotte being the capitol. I know it probably would never happen, but it would just be amazing to have one large Carolina. Ideas?

Georgia would be owned!

It sounds like a good idea, but, like you, I don't think it would ever happen. Be a nice way to capitalize on each state's pluses.

BTW:I agree with you about Charleston.

[Greenville]

I am a first-year medical student at MUSC, so I must step in here and defend my school.

First of all, MUSC is not a "second rate" medical school. It's not Harvard or Johns Hopkins, but it is certainly well-respected (not only in the southeast, but around the country). MUSC is a very large medical campus, claiming over 104 buildings. There are many hospitals and centers associated with MUSC, including MUSC Hospital, MUSC Children's Hospital, Gazes Cardiac Research Institute, Storm Eye Institute, Roper Hospital, Charleston Memorial Hospital, the Institue of Psychiatry, and others. They are in the process of constructing a new hospital that will be state-of-the-art. Many people come from out of state to receive care at MUSC. In fact, a couple was recently discussing the fact that they came to MUSC all the way from Texas for a specific treatment. That is not a rare occurrence.

MUSC Hospital has been recognized as one of the best places to receive a heart transplant. In fact, MUSC has the second-highest heart transplant survival rate in the United States. And among medical schools in the United States, MUSC has received the largest increase in research grants over the past five years. Last year, U.S. News ranked MUSC 24th for primary care. These things are pretty impressive for a "second-rate" medical school.

MUSC is the oldest medical school in the south, and one of the 10 oldest in the country. In the world of medicine, it is a well-known name. I had an internship at Harvard Medical School this past summer, and people I talked with there were very enthusiastic about MUSC when I informed them that I was going there. "Oh, that's a very good school," "You will receive an excellent education there," and "I am attending a conference there in November" are the types of comments I heard. And I was at Harvard-affiliated hospitals in Boston, not in rural SC where people supposedly don't know better.

MUSC College of Medicine receives over 2,000 applications every year and enrolls 140 students. You can do the math, but that amounts to less than 1 in 10 who are successful in getting in. I, as well as many of my classmates, chose MUSC, not because it was our only option for medical school, but because we felt we would receive a wonderful education there. And not only are the students qualified, but the faculty are as well. The Associate Dean for Medical Education, Dr. Wong, came to MUSC from being on faculty at Duke University's medical school. Before that, he was on faculty at Yale and Washington University in St. Louis (a top 5 school as well). There are definitely some respected and qualified people at MUSC.

Many people also aren't aware that MUSC is not just a medical school. It offers advanced degrees in dentistry, nursing, pharmacy, and other health professions. So no, MUSC isn't Harvard, but it is well-respected and gives our state a lot of credence when it comes to medical education and healthcare. And it's only getting better.

[krazeeboi]

EXCELLENT points, Greenville.

Welcome to the forum, TheSuperPope.

[MikesLogic]

Oh how those Charlestonians love to criticise everyone else--but when somebody turns the heat on them they just can't stand it! Nobody but Charlestonians believe that Charleston has any kind of "cuisine" at all. Hoppin' John? Shrimp n'grits? Frogmore Stew? Ha Ha! Give me a break! Fact: New Orleans has more 5-star restaurants than New York City. MUSC is a second rate medical school. If any school in the South develops a biotech community it will be Duke (a truly first-tier school), not MUSC. Dream on, country boy.

MUSC is not as large as some of these other schools, with less investment money for research(which is changing) this is what qualifies it as "second tier" but that does not take away from the quality of the school. eg. MUSC was ranked #1 in the southeast #2 in the nation in heart transplant surgery success, Duke 49th. Your same comments about cuisine, to you it seems bigger means better and that just isn't always true.

Just say no to secession, though if you can't stand SC that much you could always just leave.

[idunno]

I'll throw in my 2 cents and defend Charleston, as well, even though I grew up in the Upstate. I don't have loads of facts, etc. to back myself up with, just personal experience. Charleston is a great city, and I'm proud to have it in my home state. Like everywhere else, it has its issues that need to be addressed; that said, I'm happy to hear about all the developments going on in Charleston and statewide. I haven't been to Charleston in quite a few years; I do hope to make it back for a visit sooner rather than later.

Greenville--thanks for the insight on MUSC. I very well could have ended up going there for medical school had some things worked out differently in college. I'm glad to hear what all's going on there. Good luck with the studies!

SC would indeed lose a lot if any part broke off...I personally don't see the necessity in bashing this city or that. I'm proud to have all 3 "big metros" in my home state.

I'd be interested in more discussion about the NC-SC merger myself...I've often thought, "what if..." about that scenario, and what the benefits (and/or drawbacks) might be...do I remember seeing another thread about that topic?

Anyway, just some random thoughts...

[krazeeboi]

About the Carolinas merging into one state, there is a thread on the Southern USA forum about "Colonial Carolina" and what it would be like had the two states remained one. Check that one out.

[Charleston native]

Oh how those Charlestonians love to criticise everyone else--but when somebody turns the heat on them they just can't stand it! Nobody but Charlestonians believe that Charleston has any kind of "cuisine" at all. Hoppin' John? Shrimp n'grits? Frogmore Stew? Ha Ha! Give me a break! Fact: New Orleans has more 5-star restaurants than New York City. MUSC is a second rate medical school. If any school in the South develops a biotech community it will be Duke (a truly first-tier school), not MUSC. Dream on, country boy.

Like I said, you obviously haven't been to Chas in a loooooong time if you're speaking about my hometown like that. I never said that Chas was the only place to have any kind of cuisine, and I wasn't downplaying any significance of any other cities' offerings of cuisine. However, I could make the argument that Chas has more 5-star restaurants than Greenville, but I know that G'ville is changing that and attracting excellent chefs to make cuisine on the same competitive level. And, why don't you ask some other UP forumers about restaurants in Chas? You'll be amazed how many people throughout the nation know about the city's many unique and exquisite restaurants and bars. BTW, you seem to be the person providing all the criticism and city-bashing.

UP forumer Greenville, fantastic points about MUSC. I think mcashlv's comments are based on pure ignorance if he's not trying to bait people. I worked at MUSC for 2 years at the Student Wellness Center as a manager, and I remember providing convention space and meeting space for many visiting scholars, researchers, and doctors from many of the "top tier" schools and research centers. Many people in many parts of the Southeast who want to get different operations from cardiac bypass to laser eye surgery come to MUSC. If you are an MUSC graduate, you are well-respected in the health care community.

[upstate29650]

This upstater agrees that Chucktown is an amazing city, and is a keeper! Hell, I'd rather lose Columbia than Charleston!

[monsoon]

..... MUSC is a second rate medical school. If any school in the South develops a biotech community it will be Duke (a truly first-tier school), not MUSC. Dream on, country boy.

This is a fairly ignorant comment. MUSC is well respected in the medical community, and there is far more demand by students to enter this school than available seats. While Duke is an excellent school/hospital as well, the most notible news item about place in the last year was the fact that it operated on hundreds of individuals using surgical tools that had been cleaned in elevator hydrolic fluid.

Either you were truly ignorant of these facts, or you were creating a baiting post. I suggest that you read our rules again because the tone and name calling are against our rules here.

[jaxpalmer]

some people defanitley took this little idea a bit to far. to even suggest that the upstate form its own region is absurd. the upstate is hardly different from the rest of south carolina. im from san francisco and people there have talked about san francisco seceeding , but again the idea is simply absurd, to seceede because of feelings of economic superiority is absurd. actually, this whole thread is absurd.

[mcashlv]

I don't understand why a "South Carolinian" would speak down on the Medical University of South Carolina. The school is located in Charleston but provides services for ALL of South Carolina's residents. And if we want to be honest about it, SC has no "first-tier" schools, not even the Upstate's beloved Clemson and Furman. Yet we do not downgrade the very valuable contributions these schools make to our state. Better a "second-tier" medical university than none at all.

Isn't it better to speak the truth even if it's unpleasant? You are absolutely correct about SC's colleges--with one arguable exception--Wofford--which is a pretty good school, not Stanford, but not bad..

[TheSuperPope]

Hey. you know whats funny mcashlv? USC law is first tier. US News and World Report ranks USC at 90th in the nation which is first teir. You really should do your research before making such a claim.

[mcashlv]

This is a fairly ignorant comment. MUSC is well respected in the medical community, and there is far more demand by students to enter this school than available seats. While Duke is an excellent school/hospital as well, the most notible news item about place in the last year was the fact that it operated on hundreds of individuals using surgical tools that had been cleaned in elevator hydrolic fluid.

Either you were truly ignorant of these facts, or you were creating a baiting post. I suggest that you read our rules again because the tone and name calling are against our rules here.

Oh please, MUSC isn't even in the same league as Duke. Wishful thinking.

[mcashlv]

Hey. you know whats funny mcashlv? USC law is first tier. US News and World Report ranks USC at 90th in the nation which is first teir. You really should do your research before making such a claim.

Friend, 90th in the country is nowhere near "first tier". Would 90th in football ranking be considered a first tier team?

[TheSuperPope]

Well under the technicalities of the ranking systems, 90th is first tier for a law school. Have you ever seen the commercial with Jerome Bettis in it talking about how people misuse or overuse football analogies...