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Urban_Legend

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But, why should this first line be what is proposed instead of something that will benefit more people who actually live in Jacksonville? 

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What are you talking about? This line would cut right through the HEART of Jacksonville. It would serve most of Jax's population, connect several major destination points, as well as the rapidly growing suburbs to the north and south. Imo, there's no better starter route for commuter rail in this city.

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As it stands now I have a 10-15 minute walk, depending on the weather and how many library books I am carrying, to get to the nearest JTA bus stop from my house. And I must be sure to arrive early just in case the bus is running ahead of schedule, meaning I have to wait in either the cold or heat. And my stop has no cover or bench.

You cant expect urban conveniences if you live in a suburban neighborhood. From my house in Riverside, I can walk to the Publix and even walk to the Willow Branch Library if I was ambitious. I could easily ride a bike downtown to work. Move to a more convenient area.

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What are you talking about?  This line would cut right through the HEART of Jacksonville.  It would serve most of Jax's population, connect several major destination points, as well as the rapidly growing suburbs to the north and south. Imo, there's no better starter route for commuter rail in this city.

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If this route goes from Amelia Island, past Gateway, through downtown and on to St. Augustine, how will will serve people at the beach or on the westside?

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You cant expect urban conveniences if you live in a suburban neighborhood.  From my house in Riverside, I can walk to the Publix and even walk to the Willow Branch Library if I was ambitious.  I could easily ride a bike downtown to work.  Move to a more convenient area.

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How do you define a suburban neighborhood? I live near NAS and I am certainly not in the suburbs.

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If this route goes from Amelia Island, past Gateway, through downtown and on to St. Augustine, how will will serve people at the beach or on the westside?

Simple, they'll have to catch a connecting express bus or drive to the nearest park-n-ride lot, until additional methods of fixed transit, such as BRT, can be built in those areas.

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Well, I agree with Jeafl. He has every right to come onto this forum and post nothing but negative opinions. He shouldn't be banned for that.

Nor is there anything wrong with being argumentative ... lord knows I've probably started an argument with half the people who post in the Jax forum. But overall, it's all in good fun...

However, there is a distinct line between being negative and being disruptive (like if someone continuously posts comments that are remarkably outrageous or false on their face) ... and I hope that line doesn't keep on getting crossed ...

Edited by Captain Obvious
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How do you define a suburban neighborhood? I live near NAS and I am certainly not in the suburbs.

Well, I think that any community in the city where you need to have a car would be the suburbs. Technically Riverside is one of the first suburban communities, but it is more urban than most neighborhoods and is really like a small town in itself in that you can do just about everything here without leaving. I would say that around NAS is the westside and suburbia though.

By the way, I also think jeafl should not be banned. Just because I dont always agree with him doesnt mean he should be banned. That is ridiculous.

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Simple, they'll have to catch a connecting express bus or drive to the nearest park-n-ride lot, until additional methods of fixed transit, such as BRT, can be built in those areas.

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We have no express buses or park-and-ride lots anywhere near where I live. And If I had to have a car anyway, I see no reason to bother with JTA.

And why should the more populated parts of town not have easy access to the rail line?

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However, there is a distinct line between being negative and being disruptive (like if someone continuously posts comments that are remarkably outrageous or false on their face) ... and I hope that line doesn't keep on getting crossed ...

<{POST_SNAPBACK}>

What have I posted that is "remarkably outrageous or false on their face"?

I have asked another poster how long he has lived in Jacksonville. I recently read that roughly half of the city's population is not from here. However, I was born and raised here and likely know more about how this city operates than some of the rest of you. If my comments seem negative, they are supported by a 37 years of experience.

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Well, I think that any community in the city where you need to have a car would be the suburbs.  Technically Riverside is one of the first suburban communities, but it is more urban than most neighborhoods and is really like a small town in itself in that you can do just about everything here without leaving.  I would say that around NAS is the westside and suburbia though.

Until very recently Riverside did not have a grocery store so a car was necessary. Also, Riverside has few drug stores, no office supply store (to my knowledge), very few clothing stores, no movie theaters, no bookstores and very few restaurants. I don't see how many people can live in Riverside without a car. And Riverside is like most of Jacksonville- you must have a car to survive because public transit is next to useless and the heat and humidity make even short walks unbearable- even if we had enough sidewalks. You cannot even live in the La Villa end of downtown and have a grocery store within walking distance. All of Jacksonville is essentially a suburb.

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We have no express buses or park-and-ride lots anywhere near where I live.  And If I had to have a car anyway, I see no reason to bother with JTA.

Express Buses and park-and-ride are typically supporting parts of commuter rail lines. I'm not aware of any commuter rail line without them, so I'd expect Jax's would have them as well.

And why should the more populated parts of town not have easy access to the rail line?

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Pound for pound, the most densely populated area of town is the Northside, which would be served. In addition, connections to large local destination points (something the skyway fails to do) will help ridership. All in all, more of the local population would be served by this line, than the ones not. Plus, additional features like connecting express buses and park-and-ride lots would stretch the benefits of this line into most of the areas you claim won't be served.

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jeafl: Riverside now has a Publix, two drug stores (Carter's Park and King Pharmacy and Walgreens), multiple retail shops and many restaurants (Pizza Palace, Mossfire Grill, Qdoba, Al's Pizza, Starlight Cafe, The Row, Subway, Wendy's, Papa Johns Pizza, etc, etc). If you include Avondale we have even more restaurants and upscale shopping. And, downtown is really within walking distance. You must not have driven around Riverside lately. I am a Jacksonville native too and my family has been here over 100 years and I can tell you things are much better in Jacksonville and getting better every day. You must be optimistic and look at all that is available now.

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Here is a site for JTA study,actually they are close to Step 4 and might finilize project sood,if approved maybe even start building BRT.

For now its North-south...two lines one next to 95 and second next to Phillips...from Airport to Mandarin.

All details at site..

http://www.jaxrapidtransit.com/whats_new/

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If this line goes north-south, how many of the people served will earn their living in Jacksonville without paying the Jacksonville's taxes that will support the rail line?

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jeafl:  Riverside now has a Publix, two drug stores (Carter's Park and King Pharmacy and Walgreens), multiple retail shops and many restaurants (Pizza Palace, Mossfire Grill, Qdoba, Al's Pizza, Starlight Cafe, The Row, Subway, Wendy's, Papa Johns Pizza, etc, etc).  If you include Avondale we have even more restaurants and upscale shopping.  And, downtown is really within walking distance.  You must not have driven around Riverside lately.  I am a Jacksonville native too and my family has been here over 100 years and I can tell you things are much better in Jacksonville and getting better every day.  You must be optimistic and look at all that is available now.

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Apart from the fast food places, how many of these restaurants are closed except for 9-5 Monday through Friday? How well do they serve the people that live in Riverside?

And like I said Riverside has only 1 grocery store and only 2 drug stores. Now tell me how many Riverside residents live too far away to walk to these stores?

As for the other retail stores, aren't they more in the way of specialty stores? How many people can do their general shopping for household goods in these stores?

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Riverside has only 1 grocery store and only 2 drug stores

You can't build a grocery store within walking distance to each and every house; you would have a grocery store every 8 blocks (assuming that 4 blocks is a reasonable walking distance. This is where some sort of transit comes in.

It wasn't mentioned in the article, however I know JTA was looking at a trolley like that ran from Downtown to Roosevelt Square. In this case, much of the historic district would be within walking distance of this. Again, you can't serve everyone. For example, let's take two of the best transit systems in the country, New York and Chicago. There are a lot of places that Chicago's L does not go, such as Soldier Field, and the United Center (they are withing 10 blocks, but this is a relatively long walk). New York's Subway does not run to the airports.

There is no city in the world that does not have roads for personal automobiles; this is impossible. Mass transit and Transit Oriented Developement is designed to supplement the road system, not replace it.

How many times has that last sentence been repeated?

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There is no city in the world that does not have roads for personal automobiles; this is impossible.  Mass transit and Transit Oriented Developement is designed to supplement the road system, not replace it.

How many times has that last sentence been repeated?

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Not true. Not true at all. I recommend you go to Japan. In the Tokyo metro area there are vast neighborhoods with streets so narrow it is not possible to drive an automobile down them. People have to walk, take a bike or scooter. The closest an automobile can get to my sister's house in Kamakura is a 10 minute walk away. No apartment, condo, or and most houses do not include a space for parking and the individual wishing to own a car must prove they have a place to park it before being allowed to get a license for the car. Most times the parking is more expensive than the automobile.

Most streets in the Tokyo metro are not named. People reference their location in terms of the local train station.

There are of course cars in Japan, but if you look at aerials of Tokyo, you will find a surprising lack of highways for a metro containing 34 million people. (50 million if you include the Kanto urban region) Cars are considered a luxury and pleasure item there by most people and are not used for day to day living. We have much to learn from Japan in this regard.

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Agreed Metro...

I think We have FAR to much reliance on the car in the U.S. part of the reason there is so much sprawl. If there was an effective Mass transit system, I would prefer that any day over my car...

Seriosuly though.. Americans are VERY lazy in general when it comes to stuff... Not america bashing, jsut an observation.. walking isnt an issue in almost every single other country.. for some reason, it is here..

(hell, we cant even get people to walk in wal-mart anymore... freakin' mart carts...)

Cheers

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What have I posted that is "remarkably outrageous or false on their face"?

I have asked another poster how long he has lived in Jacksonville. I recently read that roughly half of the city's population is not from here. However, I was born and raised here and likely know more about how this city operates than some of the rest of you. If my comments seem negative, they are supported by a 37 years of experience.

I have lived in Jax for 10 years until moving to St. Augustine a year ago. Over the past 10 years I have developed a strong understanding of this cities potential and have grown more passionate about the well being of Jacksonville than the average citizen. I apologize for any harshness in previous posts. I was irritated and said things I shouldn't have.

Now, there are many members of this forum that are very knowlegable in all things Jax and offer secure hard evidence supporting their arguments. All it takes is a bit of research and you will find that most of the information posted on this site is indeed fact.

This city/metro is evolving very rapidly and we are starting to see services and amenities and attractions in this area that were once believed to be reserved for some "other" cities.

Jacksonville is becomming a BIG city, however, it takes time to implement efficient transit sytems that link ALL of the key areas of town, while limiting walking distances and removing the reliance on the automobile. This proposed line, as stated many times, is only the first leg of a future comprehensive transit system and will provide an alternate mode of travel for a very large portion of the Jacksonville population. Note also that the vast majority of the Jax metro population are in fact Jax residents. The fact that the line would connect Amelia and St. Augustine is totally irrelevant. Both areas would offer little support in ridership numbers, however, will be key endpoints when considering the link of North East Florida. This line also follows existing tracks aiding in lowering first cost and is easily abondoned if the line does fail. Anything connecting the westside/OP or the beaches will cost a WHOLE lot more and take longer to design/implement all at the risk of the whole idea of mass transit not working in Jax because everyone is still clinging to their cars and unwilling to ride a bus or a train. We don't know how well it will work, so we are forced to take the path of least resistance and provide the most logical route as proposed.

Have some faith in your home town and see it for what it is, as compared to what it was, and then you will clearly see what this town will be. Jacksonville has come a very long way in the name of progress, however, still has a ways to go.

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I stand corrected - When I said world, I really didn't think about Asia.

However, the point is that we have what we have - I really don't see Jacksonville ripping up I-95 and replacing it with a Train. With the layout of Jacksonville, and the mindset of the residents, I don't see transit as the primary means of transportation (at least not in the next 25 years)

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