Growth of Norfolk

[Glassoul]

I agree wholeheartedly Padman, but do our city leaders have the political will to implement these strategies. Remember, the wealthy people who are buying these units tend to pay a healthy amount of taxes and require the least amount of services. These are the people most coveted by city leaders today.

Do cities ever truly recruit the people who pay little to no taxes and use a disproportionate amount of city services?

I wouldn't worry about the poor getting pushed out of dowtown since there was almost no one poor or "working-class" other than the homeless "living" in downtown anyway. As a matter of fact, there weren't many rich either. According to the above Brooking study, only 1,200 people lived DT prior to the boom in 1980. The only poor people getting pushed out of DT are the homeless, since Norfolk and its citizens won't allow the Union Mission to renovate the existing building or to construct a new facility.

It will be interesting to see the population of downtown in 2010. I'd bet there will be close to 5,500 (or a 190% increase from 2000).

[Former Resident of HR]

Do cities ever truly recruit the people who pay little to no taxes and use a disproportionate amount of city services?

I wouldn't worry about the poor getting pushed out of dowtown since there was almost no one poor or "working-class" other than the homeless "living" in downtown anyway. As a matter of fact, there weren't many rich either. According to the above Brooking study, only 1,200 people lived DT prior to the boom in 1980. The only poor people getting pushed out of DT are the homeless, since Norfolk and its citizens won't allow the Union Mission to renovate the existing building or to construct a new facility.

It will be interesting to see the population of downtown in 2010. I'd bet there will be close to 5,500 (or a 190% increase from 2000).

I seem to remember that magic "5,000 people living downtown" figure laready being bantered about. BUT... I am curious to know how much the city is using the housing projects and Freemason to inflate their numbers for the "downtown area". As some people are quick to point out, DT supposedly means Waterside Dr north to Brambleton and St. Paul's & Boush on either side. If that is the case, 1,200 seems pretty high considering what was there in 1980 (nothing). According to the census, all of 23510 zip code was around 5,000 and that includes much more than DT.

[Chesapeake Pirate]

I seem to remember that magic "5,000 people living downtown" figure laready being bantered about. BUT... I am curious to know how much the city is using the housing projects and Freemason to inflate their numbers for the "downtown area". As some people are quick to point out, DT supposedly means Waterside Dr north to Brambleton and St. Paul's & Boush on either side. If that is the case, 1,200 seems pretty high considering what was there in 1980 (nothing). According to the census, all of 23510 zip code was around 5,000 and that includes much more than DT.

Hmmmmmmmmmmmm. My address is on Duke Street, which is one very short block west of Boush Street. I will be a one block walk from the urban market at Harbor Heights. I am a two block walk from the Wells Theater and a three block walk from MacArthur Mall. I always thought I lived "downtown", and have been telling folks that for two years. When counted, am I just an inflated number who should not be considered a downtown resident?

[lammius]

I don't think the worry is that "poor people" will get kicked out of DT. IMO the worry is/should be that working class people will be kept out of DT's revival & growth. "Affordable housing" doesn't mean EA or Section 8. It typically means housing that families earning 80% of the area's median income can afford. I would like to see the housing stock DT and throughout the city accommodate the city's workforce (municipal employees, teachers, police, firefighters, etc.). It would be a shame to see DT Norfolk turn into Central Paris.

[Former Resident of HR]

Hmmmmmmmmmmmm. My address is on Duke Street, which is one very short block west of Boush Street. I will be a one block walk from the urban market at Harbor Heights. I am a two block walk from the Wells Theater and a three block walk from MacArthur Mall. I always thought I lived "downtown", and have been telling folks that for two years. When counted, am I just an inflated number who should not be considered a downtown resident?

Well I am on the same page as you with thinking that "downtown" includes most of what is downtown... but some people get so nit-picky. I must live very near to you and have considered my abode "downtown" as well only to be tersley told in a post that Freemason is not downtown nor is it "upmarket". I wish I had found the "downmarket" part of Freemason before I paid so much to move in... :-)

As for Norfolk being Paris... I think I read somewhere that when Thomas Jefferson returned to the US (after being the ambassador to France), his daughter burst into tears at the sight of Norfolk. "Ce n'est pas Paris" was what she said then in the early 1800's.

I don't think that any amount of development is going to make us central Paris anytime soon Lamius. There is still a healthy mix of renter occupied buildings and homeowners as well (if you include Freemason area, which is a 5-10 minute walk from the CBD). It is a far more mixed income area than people realize. I also think that until some substantial developments occur and the apartments are all sold off as condos, it will remain that way.

[skylinefan]

I don't think the worry is that "poor people" will get kicked out of DT. IMO the worry is/should be that working class people will be kept out of DT's revival & growth. "Affordable housing" doesn't mean EA or Section 8. It typically means housing that families earning 80% of the area's median income can afford. I would like to see the housing stock DT and throughout the city accommodate the city's workforce (municipal employees, teachers, police, firefighters, etc.). It would be a shame to see DT Norfolk turn into Central Paris.

This is the point I was trying to make. No need to look at central Paris just look up the road in DC. The situation for affordable housing anywhere near Downtown DC has become very dire. More than 80 percent of properties for sale here in DC are too expensive for the average household. Whenever I have a conversation with co-workers or friends the topic always comes up about the lack of affordable housing and who on earth can afford $600,000 one bedroom condominiums. I truly believe that Norfolk can get this right by inclusionary zoning or some other practice that ensures the availability of affordable housing stock. Here is a link to the article about the alarming disappearance of affordable housing:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/conte...5112300773.html

DC has set a goal of attracting 100,000 new residents by 2020. Instead DC continues to see a decline in population albeit at a lesser rate than 10 years ago. I wonder why the population continues to decline could it be because of dearth of affordable housing units?

[PerduDansGand]

If you are interested in reading about a city government embracing New Urbanism and Sustainable Energy and acting on these concepts, I would suggest reading more on the development boom Austin, TX is experiencing. It is very exciting but moreso inspiring.

[PeninsulaKiddo]

If you are interested in reading about a city government embracing New Urbanism and Sustainable Energy and acting on these concepts, I would suggest reading more on the development boom Austin, TX is experiencing. It is very exciting but moreso inspiring.

Hence the former mayor of Austin coming to speak to the HR Economic Development Alliance for their annual meeting He said that education is the key to continued development and success, among other things. I hope that some day we could achieve a controlled, long-term, and successful growth rate comparable to Austin's, though I have to say we're doing pretty well recently, even in spite of BRAC, economic disappointments, and other factors.

[varider]

Hate to bring up an old thread, but with the 2010 Census around the corner, I thought I'd do it.

Do you guys think Norfolk's city population has increased for the first time since 1970?

It's obvious that the city looks like a much bigger, denser city than it did in 2000.

Downtown/Ghent population has prob. increased 1000% since then. The condo/loft market has grown exponentially and the developments that have had time to be absorbed are all leasing well. Harbor Heights, Belmont, 388 Boush, The Alexander, The Row, 201 Twenty One, Tanners Creek, River House, the multiple Church St. res. developments, Harbors Edge, WellsFargo, the Rotunda, Westport Commons, Southwind Apartments, the list goes on..! All of these projects are medium to high density developments in Norfolk's city limits that have been built since the last census. Ocean View has gained residents with the increased multi family developments at East Beach. The city is undoubtedly more dense. But do you think we have finally reversed the downward trend and finally gained residents? Maybe up to 250,000? Or will we spiral down closer to 200,000 and let Richmond rival us?

Ridin' around Norfolk nowadays is much different than 10 years ago. Neighborhoods are becoming more densely developed,etc. But is the pop. there?

[mikeas]

Hate to bring up an old thread, but with the 2010 Census around the corner, I thought I'd do it.

Do you guys think Norfolk's city population has increased for the first time since 1970?

It's obvious that the city looks like a much bigger, denser city than it did in 2000.

Downtown/Ghent population has prob. increased 1000% since then. The condo/loft market has grown exponentially and the developments that have had time to be absorbed are all leasing well. Harbor Heights, Belmont, 388 Boush, The Alexander, The Row, 201 Twenty One, Tanners Creek, River House, the multiple Church St. res. developments, Harbors Edge, WellsFargo, the Rotunda, the list goes on..! All of these projects are medium to high density developments in Norfolk's city limits that have been built since the last census. Ocean View has gained residents with the increased multi family developments at East Beach. The city is undoubtedly more dense. But do you think we have finally reversed the downward trend and finally gained residents? Maybe up to 250,000? Or will we spiral down closer to 200,000 and let Richmond rival us?

Ridin' around Norfolk nowadays is much different than 10 years ago. Neighborhoods are becoming more densely developed,etc. But is the pop. there?

[varider]

Id say it has to have increased by a couple thousand.

What I wonder though is how they count the military people that are here, there has to be a few hundred thousand military people here and a lot of them never change their address or license to VA.

[Sky06]

Do you guys think Norfolk's city population has increased for the first time since 1970?

[ronsmytheiii]

http://www.google.co...inia+population

Not sure about since 1970's, but this goes from the 1980's forward.

Here is for the general region:

http://www.google.com/publicdata?ds=uspopulation&met=population&idim=county:51710&q=Norfolk+Virginia+population#met=population&idim=county:51710:51810:51550:51650:51700:51800:51740

[Telmnstr]

I can believe it declined, due to people moving out of the area.

I can believe it increased, due to the lower end of the workforce in other areas loosing their jobs and coming here looking for replacements.

I can believe it increased, due to the people living in poverty making more babies.

I see lots of vacancies. 2006 wasn't like it is now.

Also, I can say that in my circle of friends, which is mostly good IT folks (not just IT folks, good people, seriously), I've never heard so many people talking about leaving the 757 as I do. It's mainly because the jobs aren't challenging, and aren't rewarding. Good job isn't ONLY the fat paycheck, it's also the people you work with.

[jbhay]

That's exactly the reason I'm stoked on moving to Alexandria next month. (To be fair, it's only for 4 months, but anytime away from this place is divine.) No more driving for me! WOOOOOO! The urban life for me, for the first time too.

[usermel]

Our metro suffers from a lack of STRONG diversity. Love were i'm from fellow members but, were would this area and our city of Norfolk be without the military. I mean if there was never a military presence to begin with!!! I love going to Northern VA and have to remind myself I'm in VA. Richmond though it has a more urban dowtown and vibe as a city as a whole, it seems pretty dead! Northern VA because of D.C has alot to love there. Prices are much higher based on living expenses but, they just have such a great vibe in that area. When our area ups the ante and strives for higher paying jobs and a more diverse workforce, then and only then will we be a top metro area. Charlotte is an example of that transition from the type of city and metro we are noow to what it has become.

I dislike we lose good smart bright people all the time because the area cant compete yet with Atlanta and other southern metros. This area is military heavy and has people coming and going because of there being stationed in and out of the metro. I just hope that one day our area becomes a college graduates destination after they finish school.L.G.N.M

[varider]

Having the military isn't too bad.

The problem, like you said, is the lack of economic diversity.

Hampton Roads relies too heavily on defense spending and too little on normal people jobs.

If you look at San Deigo, they have the same amount of miitary presence and transient nature, but their economy is able to come to a healthy balance.

How does Hampton Roads get to the level that in can compete with Charlotte, Raleigh, Atlanta, NoVa, as far as the private sector goes.

But you know, I think our next growth spurt, as a region, will be the Craney Island Expansion period when over 50,000 jobs are created [that could bring plenty of people from around the country looking for good blue-collar jobs] and if the offshore wind turbine thing happens which would create many, many jobs and investment in the region.

I don't know if you guys have seen what's been happening out in Suffolk with the modeling,simulation, hi tech stuff but they've had a handful of company relo's and startups.

[urbanlife]

Having the military isn't too bad.

The problem, like you said, is the lack of economic diversity.

Hampton Roads relies too heavily on defense spending and too little on normal people jobs.

If you look at San Deigo, they have the same amount of miitary presence and transient nature, but their economy is able to come to a healthy balance.

How does Hampton Roads get to the level that in can compete with Charlotte, Raleigh, Atlanta, NoVa, as far as the private sector goes.

But you know, I think our next growth spurt, as a region, will be the Craney Island Expansion period when over 50,000 jobs are created [that could bring plenty of people from around the country looking for good blue-collar jobs] and if the offshore wind turbine thing happens which would create many, many jobs and investment in the region.

I don't know if you guys have seen what's been happening out in Suffolk with the modeling,simulation, hi tech stuff but they've had a handful of company relo's and startups.

[varider]

Actually the point towards Craney is an interesting one, it is one of the factors that helped Seattle with their explosive growth in the 90s when they expanded their international shipping industry....again, that was just one of the factors going on at that time.

[usermel]

That would be great for Norfolks metro. And San Diego is a great example of a military city with balance in terms of its local economy. I feel(just my opinion,not a fact) that some economic growth starts with the leaders of the city/cities attracting these large companies with incentives and other forms of attracting them to areas looking for economic balance. Im 36, and remember so many of my friends who graduated leaving Norfolk after getting degrees only because of lack of jobs(more because lack of economic diversity locally) and they didnt want to leave. When you really look at population it boils down to jobs(NY,NY/Philadelphia/L.A/Boston/New Jersey/D.C) in the metros more than anything else. A city/metros population is typically a reflection of the jobs available in that city or metro. Makes sense when you think about it in that way. Our population is a mere reflection of the jobs here and those without jobs are a result of a lack of enough jobs,cut backs and the last 3 years we have been progressing into this recession.

People leave places and migrate elswere because of this fact. Blacks(all races) use to leave the south for the north and midwest and west. Now the south has become a place to go in cities such as Charlotte and Raleigh and Atlanta and aslo Miami among others!! Out west until the recession was also a place to go to(mainly Clifornia in terms of how badly the recession has hit it, its become a place were many struggle) for jobs, dont know if Oregon and Washington are struggling as much but, California is been out there recently. California for those not aware if it(CA) were a country had/has one of the largest economies in the world if not a part of the USA(Hollywood plays a big part in this). It still being a state has/had one of the largest economies in the US though guys/gals and has effected the US greatly because of there(CA) economic woes greatly.

VA, on the bright side the military is what has held us up. Remember when Florida tried to take away some of what Oceana had to offer. We would have lost thousands of jobs while they would have sured up jobs in Jacksonville,Florida. The good thing about our area is that without the military we would be seeing 2-3 times worse what we are seeing now locally economic wise. So, all in all the military is a economy saver during these tough times and Im grateful its here. That said, we need a stronger financial center to keep young bright men/woman here to strengthen our local economy and sure up our future locally with business leaders of tomorrow!!!.L.G.N.M

[varider]

According to newly released population figures, as of July '09, Norfolk City has continued it's population decay. 233,333. That number wa 241,000+ in 2004.

While Norfolk City continues to lose people, Hampton Roads continues it's suburban growth. Newport News City has gained 13,000 residents since the turn of the century. Portsmouth City lost a thousand. Virginia Beach City has continued it's slow,steady growth. But the winner is Chesapeake City which has gained 25K residents since 2000. Population is now 222,445. Just 10K from Norfolk City. Come on NORFOLK! You can't get passed by Chesapeake.

[urbanlife]

According to newly released population figures, as of July '09, Norfolk City has continued it's population decay. 233,333. That number wa 241,000+ in 2004.

While Norfolk City continues to lose people, Hampton Roads continues it's suburban growth. Newport News City has gained 13,000 residents since the turn of the century. Portsmouth City lost a thousand. Virginia Beach City has continued it's slow,steady growth. But the winner is Chesapeake City which has gained 25K residents since 2000. Population is now 222,445. Just 10K from Norfolk City. Come on NORFOLK! You can't get passed by Chesapeake.

[Case]

According to newly released population figures, as of July '09, Norfolk City has continued it's population decay. 233,333. That number wa 241,000+ in 2004.

While Norfolk City continues to lose people, Hampton Roads continues it's suburban growth. Newport News City has gained 13,000 residents since the turn of the century. Portsmouth City lost a thousand. Virginia Beach City has continued it's slow,steady growth. But the winner is Chesapeake City which has gained 25K residents since 2000. Population is now 222,445. Just 10K from Norfolk City. Come on NORFOLK! You can't get passed by Chesapeake.

[varider]

I wish Norfolk could under-go a period of rapid urbanization and make everything south of 38th street and west of Tidewater Dr URBAN. The only thing that can make Norfolk more attractive and help it grow population-wise is to become more city and more urban. There's always going to be people who love their "McMansions" in VB/Ches/Sfk etc. but I'm sure that there is a huge population that would love to live in an urban, city environment. The only place remotely like this is downtown Norfolk and like a centimeter of Ghent, and you see that where these places are they are very densely populated and an attractive address to live. What's stopping projects like 201 Twenty One from being replicated throughout the entire town? The more urban Norfolk becomes, the more people will move there. I'd be willing to bet if all of Norfolk S of 38th and W of Tidewater was dense and urbanized with affordable housing, Norfolk's population would be 350,000+. Norfolk almost has a many jobs as it does residents. There is no reason that it shouldn't be more populated. URBANIZE!

[varider]

Since I really couldn't find a thread about general growth of the city I thought this may be the time to create a new thread. Perhaps we could build on this one posting as Norfolk emerges as an urban powercenter.

I found an awesome article in this weeks edition of Portfolio Weekly. The article confirms what we have been saying and now studies show "Norfolk is one of 13 fast-growing emerging downtowns and suggests it could become a 'fully developed downtown' along with Manhattan, Chicago and Phildelphia if residential there continues."

Take a look at the article which I scanned here.