Virginia Beach Light Rail and Transit

[vdogg]

In this Transportation special session, Delegate Tata and Senator Wagner are patroning HB 6028, a bill that would build light rail in Virginia Beach. It would bid out a Newtown Road - Oceanfront line as a PPTA. (I tried linking the bill, but couldn't get the link to work.)

Two advantages to this plan:

1. It will probably get it done quicker.

2. As a state project, it is insulated from the VBTA, Reid, and his fellow wingnuts.

The disadvantage is that it takes bargaining power out of the City of Virginia Beach's hands.

On balance, this bill is a huge plus.

Btw Henry, thanks for the scoop (well, 2 scoops if you count the bomb you dropped about Wards Corner in Norfolks light rail thread). Since you've joined, you've been an invaluable addition to this forum. Thanks for keeping us informed.

[Henry_Ryto]

You're welcome.

[Sky06]

You're welcome.

Outstanding. I would have never guessed things would have moved in this direction so fast. I like the comment about the Admiral above. Quotes like that very well may be the catalyst for change. Now we need Langley and Newport News to say the same thing.

[RJWGMU]

So seriously, what does this mean? If this passes, bids will be accepted immediately? I mean, let's be serious... Can someone who knows more about it explain it?

[HarryVB]

Sounds great and all.. They should extend the lighrail to NOB, Oceana, Norfolk International airport, lure the tourist to the Oceanfront.. maybe a stop at town center for a bite to eat before checking into their hotel at the oceanfront... Traffic is hectic on 264 and 64. in the morning commutes.... And for NOB, Oceana and the other bases. I think that would be the most useful for them all... Bring down the congestion.. Maybe build a commuter lot. so people can park their cars and take the lightrail to work.. less of a commute and less traffic on the highways. Virginia Beach needs to get on track fast.. The future is here.. Its time.... Mass transit is a need in Virginia Beach... Connecting two Big cities or maybe all 7 cities will boom the economy.. Oceanfront to Busch Gardens?... that would really be amazing.. As I said before.. The tourist would not have to rent cars. They can ride the Tide from the airport to the Oceanfront....

[Henry_Ryto]

So seriously, what does this mean? If this passes, bids will be accepted immediately? I mean, let's be serious... Can someone who knows more about it explain it?

90 days after it becomes law, the Department of Rail and Public Transportation (DRPT) would be required to put it out for bid as a PPTA. Once those bids come in, one would be selected.

[vaceltic]

How would this really play out? When you stop at the Norfolk/VB border, you have to buy a new fare so the private company who builds the VB system profits since HRT won't be involved? I don't get it.....

[urbanvb]

This just shot up from... no where. Amazing. So, I realize Norfolk had to go through all sort of things to get federal funding approval. Does that work the same way here as well?

[Henry_Ryto]

How would this really play out? When you stop at the Norfolk/VB border, you have to buy a new fare so the private company who builds the VB system profits since HRT won't be involved? I don't get it.....

That's the question that I've raised on my blog. I'm not sure how you would structure this as a PPTA.

[RJWGMU]

90 days after it becomes law, the Department of Rail and Public Transportation (DRPT) would be required to put it out for bid as a PPTA. Once those bids come in, one would be selected.

what is a ppta? what would be the time frame for one being selected, and for construction after it is selected? how much would VB have to pay?

[vdogg]

That's the question that I've raised on my blog. I'm not sure how you would structure this as a PPTA.

So what is the possibility of Kaine signing off on this? They have an updated article this morning and it seems to raise some concerns.

But there could be trouble 'round the bend.

There's no clear plan to finance the extension or a clear idea of how much it will cost. Those glitches don't sit well with Gov. Timothy M. Kaine's administration.

This however is a great sign

Although voters rejected a light rail plan in 1999, sentiment seems to be shifting, Wood said.

"I am hearing resoundingly positive feedback from citizens because of the high gas prices," Wood said.

In order for light rail to extend into Virginia Beach, Norfolk would have to be willing to build spurs to Norfolk Naval Station and Old Dominion University, Wood said.

"For light rail to work for Virginia Beach, it has to take Virginia Beach citizens to destinations they desire."

[scm]

In order for light rail to extend into Virginia Beach, Norfolk would have to be willing to build spurs to Norfolk Naval Station and Old Dominion University, Wood said. "For light rail to work for Virginia Beach, it has to take Virginia Beach citizens to destinations they desire."

Our good councilman has no idea whether that is the truth or not. He is speculating, and unfortunately, he and the Vice Mayor are staking out voting positions based on that speculation. He is tied to the Delta airline model, when he really needs to view LR on the Southwest airline model. Any LR car, in any system in the world, has a constantly changing destinating population. They aren't headed from one start, to one stop. There will be passengers from the Oceanfront to TC, Downtown and EVMS. There will be some get on at TC for EVMS.

Council needs to be more concerned about how to collect from the residential centers south of 264, especially in the Princess Anne corridor, than they are about long term plans for other destinations. There are plenty of potential riders in those areas for the current destinations. NOB Norfolk, over any Hampton extension, is at least 25 stops (11 in the starter segment, at least 8 in VB, and a minimum 6 from EVMS) from the Oceanfront. Standard is three minutes between stops, so an hour and 15 minutes for that trip. No one will do that. The NS ROW, with a loop (single track along Norfolk Ave, up Mediterranean to 19th, back to Birdneck, then south to the ROW) at the Oceanfront, will need feeder bus service, both from north and south. Once you have that, you will see TOD all along that route, that will eventually change development patterns. But until then, there is plenty of demand for the current destinations, just as long as you have collector bus systems supporting it.

[scm]

That's the question that I've raised on my blog. I'm not sure how you would structure this as a PPTA.

Henry, the French firm, Veolia Transportation, just started as the operator of the N. San Diego County Sprinter rail line (second use in the US of non-FRA approved Diesel Multiple Units -- just what we need for a commuter rail system here!). They only operate the cars for this, but around the world, they have done Design-Build-Operate -- in Israel and India just the latest examples (see what they did in Rouen, France).

I am sure they would JUMP at the opportunity to do a similar PPTA for the VB section -- maybe even operate the entire line after building the VB extension?

Edited June 26, 2008 by scm

[Henry_Ryto]

PPTA = Public-Private Transportation Act of 1995. That law sets the parameters.

Virginia Beach's share would depend on how much the state and the private company are willing to pay.

[scm]

Virginia Beach's share would depend on how much the state and the private company are willing to pay.

And could be as low as $0. VDOT has an RFP out right now for the Midtown-Downtown-MLK freeway, as a PPTA. Here is what they say about planned gov't funding:

Currently there are

no

state or federal public funds allocated for Offerors to use on this Project. Offerors should explore innovative financing methods including, but not limited to, opportunities related to public funds, Private Activity Bonds (PABs), or the Transportation Infrastructure Finance Innovation Act of 1998 (TIFIA).

I doubt this can get built, just based on anticipated fare-box revenues. But there are plenty of other ways to get it done, and I would imagine Veolia would have some ideas.

[urbanlife]

If there were park and rides throughout virginia beach and the line ran all the way to Norfolk Naval Base, those trains would be packed with navy guys trying to save a buck, plus if it takes 45 minutes on train compared to an hour sitting in traffic, which option do you think they would take.

Each city has their own issues that need to be dealt with, in Hampton Roads, the military is the biggest commuter. If rail is designed to meet their needs first, it will be successful.

[scm]

If there were park and rides throughout virginia beach and the line ran all the way to Norfolk Naval Base, those trains would be packed with navy guys trying to save a buck, plus if it takes 45 minutes on train compared to an hour sitting in traffic, which option do you think they would take.

#1 -- it takes less than 45 minutes, at the height of rush hour, to drive from the oceanfront to the Naval Station. Did it yesterday, at 6:30 AM. It will take over 30 minutes longer to ride LR, if if goes up Hampton, than to drive a SOV. So your numbers are a little suspect.

#2 -- those "navy guys trying to save a buck" tend to live in Ocean View and off LC Road. 21% of the NS commuters live there, 29% in VB -- most of those are civilians, or more senior folks with kids, attracted to VB schools -- point is that they aren't as cost sensitive as the more junior sailors in OV. Most in VB live w/ of Lynnhaven, N of Indian River, and S of 264 (see the graphic below). They would have a collector bus ride of at least 20 minutes, ten minutes connect time, and then at least 45 minutes once they got on the LR (minimum 15 stops, even from TC) -- total 75 minutes. Now, if we ever build a line up the HOV lanes on 64, then we might have an alternative route that is attractive to NS commuters. But that is WAYS down the road, and no reason to delay the building a VB line to the Oceanfront.

[urbanfan]

#1 -- it takes less than 45 minutes, at the height of rush hour, to drive from the oceanfront to the Naval Station. Did it yesterday, at 6:30 AM. It will take over 30 minutes longer to ride LR, if if goes up Hampton, than to drive a SOV. So your numbers are a little suspect.

#2 -- those "navy guys trying to save a buck" tend to live in Ocean View and off LC Road. 21% of the NS commuters live there, 29% in VB -- most of those are civilians, or more senior folks with kids, attracted to VB schools -- point is that they aren't as cost sensitive as the more junior sailors in OV. Most in VB live w/ of Lynnhaven, N of Indian River, and S of 264 (see the graphic below). They would have a collector bus ride of at least 20 minutes, ten minutes connect time, and then at least 45 minutes once they got on the LR (minimum 15 stops, even from TC) -- total 75 minutes. Now, if we ever build a line up the HOV lanes on 64, then we might have an alternative route that is attractive to NS commuters. But that is WAYS down the road, and no reason to delay the building a VB line to the Oceanfront.

Just one quick point, your numbers seem fair however, the idea that it would take 75 minutes is suspect. Almost all transit lines run rush hour express trains. More than likely this would be the case for workers at 6:00a.m. No since in stopping at stations that don't need to be stopped at.

[gosm]

I think the LR is a great idea,but the fact remains that our HRT needs to be fixed first.Most buses dont run after 5 or 6 pm.

There are many who would prefer to take a bus to the train station and not drive at all.I could take a bus to the town center,catch

the train to downtown Norfolk,go to a show,have a nice dinner,but when I return to the town center station,I would have no

way to get home.I would be happy right now if the buses would just run longer hours.I do own a car,but if I start out in my car,I would most likely just drive all the way to my destination.I would like the option of not having to use my car at all.It will not help with traffic problems if everyone still must drive to get to the train.After visiting NYC and seeing that the buses run 24/7,I began to see a real problem here.My daughter can go anywhere up there and know that she can catch a bus or subway home.When she lived here,she would take the bus to the mall,but had to always find someone to give her a ride home.There are lots of people who dont own cars who must depend on others to travel at night since the buses stop running so early.I have 4 people at my current job who take the bus to work and must leave before 5pm to catch the last bus.Sorry this is so long,I just needed to vent alittle.

Have a wonderful night.

[geszes]

That image explains why the Silverleaf P+R makes sense. I wonder, are there any [public] usage statistics for that and the related express line?

[lammius]

Just one quick point, your numbers seem fair however, the idea that it would take 75 minutes is suspect. Almost all transit lines run rush hour express trains. More than likely this would be the case for workers at 6:00a.m. No since in stopping at stations that don't need to be stopped at.

But those systems which offer express services also have 4 tracks or at least frequent passing sidings. The Tide starter line will not have either, correct? Even if the LRT were to skip stops, it would still be a tremendously long trip. The route from VB to NOB via downtown Norfolk and Hampton Blvd has lots of chokepoints where the LRT will be running in mixed traffic. It will not be time-competitive with the driving trip via I-64. An alternative is to run a rail service in the I-64/564 ROW. Such a service would truly be just an express from VB to NOB, and would not serve the function of an "urban metro" within Norfolk. Is there enough travel demand to justify the expense of such a service? If not, then buses remain the best option.

I think the LR is a great idea,but the fact remains that our HRT needs to be fixed first.Most buses dont run after 5 or 6 pm.

There are many who would prefer to take a bus to the train station and not drive at all.I could take a bus to the town center,catch

the train to downtown Norfolk,go to a show,have a nice dinner,but when I return to the town center station,I would have no

way to get home.I would be happy right now if the buses would just run longer hours.I do own a car,but if I start out in my car,I would most likely just drive all the way to my destination.I would like the option of not having to use my car at all.It will not help with traffic problems if everyone still must drive to get to the train.After visiting NYC and seeing that the buses run 24/7,I began to see a real problem here.My daughter can go anywhere up there and know that she can catch a bus or subway home.When she lived here,she would take the bus to the mall,but had to always find someone to give her a ride home.There are lots of people who dont own cars who must depend on others to travel at night since the buses stop running so early.I have 4 people at my current job who take the bus to work and must leave before 5pm to catch the last bus.Sorry this is so long,I just needed to vent alittle.

Have a wonderful night.

It would be my hope that HRT would change some of its bus service schedules and routes to make good connections to the light rail. HRT would likely cut services on its Va Beach Blvd route to Norfolk, and add circulator buses to pick up riders who live/work/etc beyond walking distance to the LRT stations. Hopefully those circulators/jitneys would be scheduled so that they'd be at the station within a minute or two of the arrival of the train (seamless transfer), and would run as late as the train runs. Also, it's likely that local cab drivers will gather at train stations to pick up passengers who can't use the bus to get to where they're going or who don't want to wait for a bus if there's a long wait. It's HRT's responsibility to make LRT work by making it as easy to get to and use as possible! Let's hope they don't let us down!

[vaceltic]

An NOB light rail stop would need some stellar coordination to make it worthwhile. Problem is, it would have to stop before the gate entrance for security reasons. Then, Navy personnel would have to be bussed in to get to their workplaces - some buildings might even have additional security gates within the installation to go through, making it an even longer commute than people might be calculating. HRT can't have a lean budget with this stop if they want the ridership everyone claims it can generate.

I live in Fredericksburg now near Marine Corps Base Quantico. It has a VRE stop right outside the installation but no one uses it [/b ]to get there. The installation tried a bus system to accomodate the rail but that failed too. The thought is, why make three different transit changes when you can simply drive onto the installation and park right next to your building? There are definitely some security, transit time, and general efficiency issues that need serious attention - - I hope HRT has the staff and the will to make a rail stop there worthwhile to take.

[skylinefan]

Interestting discussion, I'm not sure I can come up with one transit system that has a stop at a Military Installation. The closest I can come too is the Pentagon which has a dedicated metro stop. Of course this Metro Stop opened many years before 9/11, not sure it would get built today with all of the increased security requirements. I thought NAS NOB had a transit system, but that might have been discontinued.

[Sky06]

Few people are going to ride LR from 1 end to the other. But that doesn't mean you shouldn't have a line to the NS. If you live in DT, Ghent, or other surrounding areas, it would make perfect sense to take the LR to avoid backups getting through the gates, traffic lights, etc. Even if you didn't take it every day, the fact that it's available on the worst days makes it a useful option. The argument that it takes longer to go from the oceanfront to NS is missing the point. People will get on board at different places, get off at different places, have different destinations from day to day, etc. What happens when there's an accident on 64? I can tell you: traffic sucks. What if you're running late or have an early morning Dr's appointment? Want to try finding a parking spot at 10a? Good luck. As for express lines, well, you gotta build the system itself before you build express lines.

Edited July 8, 2008 by Sky06

[vaceltic]

Interestting discussion, I'm not sure I can come up with one transit system that has a stop at a Military Installation. The closest I can come too is the Pentagon which has a dedicated metro stop. Of course this Metro Stop opened many years before 9/11, not sure it would get built today with all of the increased security requirements. I thought NAS NOB had a transit system, but that might have been discontinued.

Many anti-terrorism / force protection (AT/FP) requirements have been created due to 9/11. It does complicate the design of transit around military installations. The government is even trying to find a way to reroute hazardous rail traffic out of DC because of AT/FP concerns. It is definitely the top thing the military would consider in any design scheme for a LR stop.