Virginia Beach Light Rail and Transit

[varider]

At least its a start.

[lil-bear]

It is great forethough for the Mayor Sessoms to have vision for light rail.

I think at this point, his concern is to secure the right of way from Norfolk Southern.

Once the right of way is secured, then advances can be made to expand light rail to

Town Center and the oceanfront in the future.

I think that it's pre-mature for nay-sayers to jump on a negative bandwagon because

an elected official is thinking ahead!

[Norfolk4Life]

in talking with many of the older naysayers, I found found the problem. Many of the older people who oppose the light rail used to live in Norfolk. They moved out and have not been back since. If fact one told me, "why does Norfolk need a light rail? who would ride a train from vacant lot to vacant lot?" When they left, Norfolk was just that. Many vacant lot downtown, expansive parking lots, etc. Now, Downtown has no vacant lots. In fact the light rail is directly responsible for developing the last 3 major lots downtown with highrises. It is also responsible for developing a key lot near the medical center. I think if Virginia Beachians were to put the naysayers on a bus and give them a guided tour downtown, they may change their minds. The other alternative is that they just have too tightly shut minds and we should work around them. A light rail could potentially bring a half-dozen new high rises to TC without needing city council handouts. Also, if done properly, a close proximity light rail line could bring the rudee loop site into greater demand.

[mlsimons]

in talking with many of the older naysayers, I found found the problem. Many of the older people who oppose the light rail used to live in Norfolk. They moved out and have not been back since. If fact one told me, "why does Norfolk need a light rail? who would ride a train from vacant lot to vacant lot?" When they left, Norfolk was just that. Many vacant lot downtown, expansive parking lots, etc. Now, Downtown has no vacant lots. In fact the light rail is directly responsible for developing the last 3 major lots downtown with highrises. It is also responsible for developing a key lot near the medical center. I think if Virginia Beachians were to put the naysayers on a bus and give them a guided tour downtown, they may change their minds. The other alternative is that they just have too tightly shut minds and we should work around them. A light rail could potentially bring a half-dozen new high rises to TC without needing city council handouts. Also, if done properly, a close proximity light rail line could bring the rudee loop site into greater demand.

When I went to Christmas dinner with my family and the subject of light rail came up. I mostly listened in order to see the true feeling of what the nay-sayers and old timers were thinking. While the issue of a "waste of taxpayer's money" floated by. The real conversation was about how Norfolk's poor would hop on a train to rob tourist down at the oceanfront of turn town center into a gangster's paradise. Other terms were used to describes "Norfolk's poor" which I do not agree with....But this is the reality of some nay-sayer's mentality. (at least in my redneck family)

They too were part of Norfolk's white flight in the 50's and 60's. And since then, they have never looked back. I can't say the issue was concluded as a "race issue" as much as it can be called a "history issue."

I live in Norfolk now and my parents and especially grandparents hate it. They refuse to come visit me! Another truth for many nay-sayers of VB. However, Norfolk has changed very much, and if you plainly look at the stops LRT is making thru Norfolk you will see most stops are within very nice surroundings. Not to mention I don't buy that whole "poor people will now rob tourist and white folks" theory.

From my observation (as narrow minded as it may be) the nay-sayers are fearful of the past, and are not familiar with how modern cities rely on mass transit. I know for most of my family of nay-sayers, they have never been to any city bigger than the 757, except Atlanta which has the MARTA, which only reinforces these feelings.

[Norfolk4Life]

ah yes... the poor norfolk thieves excuse. how did i forget that one? personally i would be afraid of the crime at the oceanfront being able to get into norfolk lol j/k .. realistically, the 'criminal element' can drive. they don't take public transportation to commit crimes.

[varider]

Criminals are not going to take public transportation to commit a crime. Anyway it would be impossible to escape on a train! Bring in the light rail and as much as people hate it, the transit oriented development! Good job Sessoms. ;)

[urbanlife]

ahh the naysayers, the one thing that use to really piss me off when I lived there. To this day, I cannot understand how people can hate cities in their own metro that much. Maybe Hampton Roads needs to make the region much more attractive to younger people and push all the older people out to Arizona.

Anyway, this is a good sign from the new mayor...VB really has been in need of pulling its head out of its ass for a while. Although, while it is a weak mayor system, it will be interesting how all these naysayers react to the pro business mayor they just elected...oh they are going to beotch and whine and blame everyone but themselves for electing him. Though it could lead to a government push around the town center....the city is going to see alot of new development in the next four years.

[scm]

Criminals are not going to take public transportation to commit a crime. Anyway it would be impossible to escape on a train!

One of the most heinous crimes in recent history in VB was the murder of Kelly Reilly at the Stein Mart in Hilltop. The murderer was a Norfolk resident, Christopher Hagans, who specialized in preying on women in VB shopping center parking lots (pled guilty to a similar crime at Pembroke Mall). He borrowed his girlfriend's car to drive to Hilltop. He didn't need light rail, and as varider says, probably wouldn't have used it.

I have lived plenty of places across this country, in all parts

[mlsimons]

I find its my responsibility to combat the nay-sayers on the Pilot with facts and alternative ideas. I feel if you don't do this, then some will get the impression that the overall perception of Light rail is bad.

I like to stick to facts and use complex economic topics and issue to argue that maybe the entire project is out of the "economic mental grasp" of the average individual. I feel this does more to counter the negative perception than anything else.

For instance; here are two articles in which I attempt to control the nay-saying. Just look for "mlsimons"

http://hamptonroads.com/2009/01/sessoms-sw...#comment-687879

And this one, I'm most proud of...

http://hamptonroads.com/2008/12/choppy-waters-norfolks-tide

Edited January 8, 2009 by mlsimons

[MissySchmidt]

I find its my responsibility to combat the nay-sayers on the Pilot with facts and alternative ideas. I feel if you don't do this then some will get the impression that the overall perception of Light rail is bad.

I like to stick to facts and use complex economic topics and issue to argue that maybe the entire project is out of the "economic mental grasp" of the average individual. I feel this does more to counter the negative perception than anything else.

For instance; here are two articles in which I attempt to control the nay-saying. Just look for "mlsimons"

http://hamptonroads.com/2009/01/sessoms-sw...#comment-687879

And this one, I'm most proud of...

http://hamptonroads.com/2008/12/choppy-waters-norfolks-tide

I like your attitude! If interested in talking offline, please contact me via my HRP email below. Thanks.

[rusthebuss]

I still think we should all meet up one night and discuss these things! Someone set up a date

[varider]

i.m not real familiar with the train tracks around here. could someone explain the norfolk southern right of way Sessoms is trying to buy??? where does it lead?

[rusthebuss]

i.m not real familiar with the train tracks around here. could someone explain the norfolk southern right of way Sessoms is trying to buy??? where does it lead?

Its the tracks that run across Independence Blvd by town center that runs all the way to Oceana. NS use to run there for crushed rocks. Vulcan is now over at Balentine and Vabeach Blvd. so there was no need to run down to Oceana.

[mlsimons]

Its the tracks that run across Independence Blvd by town center that runs all the way to Oceana. NS use to run there for crushed rocks. Vulcan is now over at Balentine and Vabeach Blvd. so there was no need to run down to Oceana.

Does anyone have any old pictures of a train on the NS right of way...I'm 23 and grew up in Haygood Pt. next to Bayside, and I barely barely barely remember hearing the train at night. And only once do I remember stopping at Independence Blvd to allow a train to pass; this was way before town center, I was maybe 7 or 8.

[scm]

Its the tracks that run across Independence Blvd by town center that runs all the way to Oceana. NS use to run there for crushed rocks. Vulcan is now over at Balentine and Vabeach Blvd. so there was no need to run down to Oceana.

Actually, they run past Oceana to Birdneck. East of Birdneck to the Oceanfront, the ROW is now a walking path all the way to Mediterranean. The electric powered trolleys ran all the way up the Oceanfront, to a station at 17th St, another at the Cavalier, and all the way to Ft. Story. There, it connected to a line that paralleled Shore Drive, and which is the basis for the walking trail just south of Shore.

Service to the Oceanfront ended in 1950, or so I was told. Russ is right -- the tracks were used for the gravel pits just northeast of Oceana.

[Norfolk4Life]

One of the most heinous crimes in recent history in VB was the murder of Kelly Reilly at the Stein Mart in Hilltop. The murderer was a Norfolk resident, Christopher Hagans, who specialized in preying on women in VB shopping center parking lots (pled guilty to a similar crime at Pembroke Mall). He borrowed his girlfriend's car to drive to Hilltop. He didn't need light rail, and as varider says, probably wouldn't have used it.

I have lived plenty of places across this country, in all parts

[mistermetaj]

Race is the basis for our region. Way back in the 50s, norfolk had 350,000 residents (think the population of VB in the space of norfolk). when the schools were integrated, the wealthier whites moved to VB. Most have never been back since, so they think it hasnt changed. I once had to respond to a post on pilotonline. This guy said something to the effect of, "who would want to ride the train between vacant lots in downtown norfolk" I want to know where these lots are. i sure havent seen any.

The LRT debate goes far beyond race as well. The suburbs isn't just a living space, it's a culture all on its own. What LRT does to people against it is threaten their culture and way of life with the prospect of park and rides and developments. I think the way around these issues is merely proper choices for stops. If it were just two stops, i.e. the oceanfront and town center, then I am sure most residents wouldn't care or be opposed. However, if it were just going to be those two stops, then there'd be no reason for Va Beach to build the line.

[urbanlife]

one thing I would like to bring up about light rail, how much of a change in opinion has their been about the town center? I know when it first went into construction, the majority of VB residents thought of it as a waste of their tax dollar money, but I have read plenty of comments from people that enjoy visiting there and dining at the restaurants.

I figure, this will happen with light rail as well, especially that first time people realize they can park their car in a cheap and "safe" well lit lot in VB and ride the train into downtown Norfolk for Harborfest. Or when it finally runs up to NOB and sailors that live in VB realize they only have a 45 minute train ride rather than an hour and a half sitting in traffic...people's attitude will change when they start to realize how much more relaxing the train is.

Though I am guessing the trains will have an officer on board to make things a little bit smoother. If they dont, I would suggest that to be a good idea.

[lil-bear]

I wonder what type of security there will be on the LRT.

Is the norm usually just a camera or would there be actual security guards riding?

My guess is on the former......

[scm]

Or when it finally runs up to NOB and sailors that live in VB realize they only have a 45 minute train ride rather than an hour and a half sitting in traffic...people's attitude will change when they start to realize how much more relaxing the train is.

You obviously don't know any sailors on ships at NOB. Take it from some one who does -- they live in the areas east of NOB, in OV, and the areas off LC Road, not in VB - for the very reason you mention. That's why the traffic up 64 in the morning doesn't back up until Tidewater, when all of those folks get on to head up 564. Go look at the 2007 NOB Traffic Managment Study. It is an eye opener. Only 29% of NOB traffic originates in VB, and most of that is in areas well N of the projected LR track. And I will, admittedly anecdotely, promise you that is mainly civilians and not sailors. (And, as someone who drives that not infrequently at rush hour, from the oceanfront, it doesn't take ninety minutes.)

I am all for LR -- but to spend all of the money that it will cost to build a line to NOB, and not see it used, will be a constant source of "evidence" the nay-sayers will point to. Better to spend that money first, where it will be used -- East all the way to the Oceanfront, then west, across the Elizabeth river and in to Portsmouth.

[mlsimons]

First off, No there won't be any guards on Light Rail. I don't know of any mass transit systems with guards on the trains. Also, you must include all the data: Norfolk makes up only 32% of NOB workers. Virginia Beach is 2nd at 29%, Chesapeake 10%, Penninsula 7%, and Suffolk/Portsmouth 6%. Also 14% is unknown!!! There is no fact/stat stating that most of VB NOB workers live north of the NS line. As of now 95% of commuters ride in single occupancy vehicles...only 1% use public transportation. A commuter rail/LRT line going to NOB would open the door to several alternatives and incentive programs to encourage transit use. Not only would the base able to better manage the flow of traffic thru its gates, but more land could be utilized on base which is currently used to park cars!!!!

[Norfolk4Life]

Only 29% of NOB traffic originates in VB

If you completely read that study, it notes that there are 70,000 trips per day to NOB. This means that the 29% that come from VB equals 20,300 people. 29% sounds small but not when it comes out of 70,000.

[urbanlife]

sounds like a good light rail line to NOB could take alot of cars off the road which would be amazing.

scm, it looks like a good number does live in VB, but then again, I grew up in a higher ranking navy house, so we were able to live in VB.

mlsimons it depends on the transit, almost all lines have transit police that ride it periodically cause how else are they gonna nail people for not paying? The cameras on a train are a given these days. Portland had some issues with violence on the MAX and had to have transit police riding the trains more to curb future violence.

I am guessing a higher security will make people from VB more willing to ride it, but then again, I still think that first time people start to realize how much they are saving in money and commute time, they will be all about it and wishing for expansions.

[scm]

There is no fact/stat stating that most of VB NOB workers live north of the NS line.

Guess the maps that show where the trips originate confused you.

You are living in a fantasy land, searching for justifications for your desired outcome. You mention"incentives" that will magically produce massive LR utilization on an NOB line. If the current free $110/month, for transit passes, paid by the Navy, doesn't produce a greater utilization than 1%, then what will?

Edited January 10, 2009 by scm

[scm]

If you completely read that study, it notes that there are 70,000 trips per day to NOB. This means that the 29% that come from VB equals 20,300 people.

Not really -- 70,000 trips are round trips -- meaning the VB originating trips represent 10,150 commuters. Considering that today, from all areas -- Hampton, Chesapeake, and VB, 270 people ride the express busses. Tell me how, magically, any significant number of those 10,150 will ride LR when they don't ride the express busses today?

(and Henry, before you get off on the "you can't get home for an emergency" track, read the NOB Traffic Management study - they id'd several strategies to increase non-SOV commuting. Never mentioned your favorite as an impediment to increased transit utilization.)