Virginia Beach Light Rail and Transit

[urbanlife]

transfer lines you are thinking about would be a long way away. the best move would be to make bus routes on these transfer routes and go from there. I think with LR coming on line, it will be important to restructure HRT to have it work with the LR rather than be the useless system it currently is. The metro is too unique to function like a typical single city core system. It really has become 7 individual cities and the transit for the metro needs to reflect that and work within each city differently.

[vdogg]

Well I didn't vote for the guy and I was sad to see Meyera go, but must admit that he is starting to win me over. Now if he can successfully ween us off of Oceana he'll definitely have my vote next election.

[Norfolk4Life]

transfer lines you are thinking about would be a long way away. the best move would be to make bus routes on these transfer routes and go from there. I think with LR coming on line, it will be important to restructure HRT to have it work with the LR rather than be the useless system it currently is. The metro is too unique to function like a typical single city core system. It really has become 7 individual cities and the transit for the metro needs to reflect that and work within each city differently.

The "work within each city differently" is the reason why HRT is so dysfunctional. Instead of HRT operating like any other reasonable entity that just does their job, they have to get each city on board to make a change. For example, HRT wants to increase the hours that VB's buses operate. VB, however, doesn't want to pay for that. If HRT wanted a new route to connect, say, VB TCC with Ches. TCC, they would need approval from BOTH VB and Ches. The President of HRT has a great vision and does a great job. Try working somewhere that every year your bos increases your work by 10% and decreases your pay by 20%. Thats what HRT has to do, because they do not have a steady income. If every city had a 2 cent sales tax to fund transit, we would have an excellent system. If, at minimum, each city paid a flat rate per passenger that originated in the city, it would be better. Instead, instead of running on one consistent budget, they operate on at least 7 (Norfolk, Virginia Beach, Chesapeake, Hampton, Newport News, Suffolk, State of VA). AND the state's portion is assembled out of funds from a variety of different departments that each have their own respective budgets.

[mlsimons]

The "work within each city differently" is the reason why HRT is so dysfunctional. Instead of HRT operating like any other reasonable entity that just does their job, they have to get each city on board to make a change. For example, HRT wants to increase the hours that VB's buses operate. VB, however, doesn't want to pay for that. If HRT wanted a new route to connect, say, VB TCC with Ches. TCC, they would need approval from BOTH VB and Ches. The President of HRT has a great vision and does a great job. Try working somewhere that every year your bos increases your work by 10% and decreases your pay by 20%. Thats what HRT has to do, because they do not have a steady income. If every city had a 2 cent sales tax to fund transit, we would have an excellent system. If, at minimum, each city paid a flat rate per passenger that originated in the city, it would be better. Instead, instead of running on one consistent budget, they operate on at least 7 (Norfolk, Virginia Beach, Chesapeake, Hampton, Newport News, Suffolk, State of VA). AND the state's portion is assembled out of funds from a variety of different departments that each have their own respective budgets.

The reason why...no politicians care about fixing bus transit issues. It could be fixed from all of this. But politicians don't care about busses.

[mlsimons]

More importantly...

http://hamptonroads.com/2009/01/beach-buy-...fway-light-rail

[Norfolk4Life]

it has nothing to do with the type of transit. if LRT went from downtown to the ocean front, HRT would need to get approval from BOTH city councils to increase/decrease frequency of trains or to lengthen/shorten operating hours. If one city fails to approve HRT's request? well, you cant operate every 10 minutes in virginia beach and every 5 in norfolk or v/v. Even if we had maglev or flying-super-high-tech-transporters that ran between cities, each city would have to agree independently.

[urbanlife]

The "work within each city differently" is the reason why HRT is so dysfunctional. Instead of HRT operating like any other reasonable entity that just does their job, they have to get each city on board to make a change. For example, HRT wants to increase the hours that VB's buses operate. VB, however, doesn't want to pay for that. If HRT wanted a new route to connect, say, VB TCC with Ches. TCC, they would need approval from BOTH VB and Ches. The President of HRT has a great vision and does a great job. Try working somewhere that every year your bos increases your work by 10% and decreases your pay by 20%. Thats what HRT has to do, because they do not have a steady income. If every city had a 2 cent sales tax to fund transit, we would have an excellent system. If, at minimum, each city paid a flat rate per passenger that originated in the city, it would be better. Instead, instead of running on one consistent budget, they operate on at least 7 (Norfolk, Virginia Beach, Chesapeake, Hampton, Newport News, Suffolk, State of VA). AND the state's portion is assembled out of funds from a variety of different departments that each have their own respective budgets.

which is why the area needs a strong regional metro group that handles issues like this.

though I was referring more to the routes within the cities that dont make sense, though you definitely pointed out a layer to this problem.

[urbanvb]

Circuit City is bankrupt and per the Pilot will be liquidating their stores. Their store on Independence may be something the city should look at for a future station for Pembroke/TC.

[urbanfan]

Circuit City is bankrupt and per the Pilot will be liquidating their stores. Their store on Independence may be something the city should look at for a future station for Pembroke/TC.

Circuit City has only filed chapter 11, so it's more a reshuffling. Are they planning on shutting the store down on Independence?

Circuit City has only filed chapter 11, so it's more a reshuffling. Are they planning on shutting the store down on Independence?

Never mind, I see the headlines now. Not good for Richmond business.

[mlsimons]

Circuit City is bankrupt and per the Pilot will be liquidating their stores. Their store on Independence may be something the city should look at for a future station for Pembroke/TC.

I was kinda hoping that there would be two stops at Town Center...one to the west of Independence Blvd around the intersection of Euclid Rd, Southern Blvd, and Opal Ave. And the other around Constitution drive. The latter station could provide all the transit for existing Town center, plus be close to the new Midtown residences and the commercial/hotel area on Bonney. The former station mentioned would be more of an an investment encourager around existing mid-to-light industry.

Lastly a stop should be at Witchduck rd. These three stops would probably make up the highest density of stops on the line. But they have the most potential for mixed-use transit-oriented development.

I think the best case scenerio would be a line which consists of a true mix of riders. Business men/women, young people and students (possibly P.A. High school students, NSU, and the new art institute), construction workers, veteran HRT riders, our military service men/women, those looking for a night out to eat, harborfest/harbor park riders, TOD investors, etc.

Any thoughts??

[vdogg]

Circuit City is bankrupt and per the Pilot will be liquidating their stores. Their store on Independence may be something the city should look at for a future station for Pembroke/TC.

Not just a station, but maybe a future expansion area for TC proper. Terrible news about the jobs though, and I'm not looking forward to seeing another boarded up store on our main drag. I wish the economy would pull out of its death spiral already, the news has been sickening lately.

[urbanlife]

I have been well aware of the fall of Circuit City for some time now. I remember it looked like they were going under last christmas, so I am amazed they made it this long before closing down stores. There should definitely be two stops in the town center, one to the east and one to the west of Independence.

Actually looking at the map (cause I forgot where CC was at Indy) this is great news for urban redevelopment because that would definitely be a prime location for a new structure or complex. Plus even better if the city figures out that they should relocate that substation to a new location to allow for two new lots to redevelop.

The two stops that should happen in Pembroke is at the TC and at the open lot that is just west of Kellam along the tracks. By doing that would allow a push by the city to wish for urban expansion to happen to that distance.

to throw into the wish list hat, I would love to see Pembroke get a streetcar that ran in a circle along Kellam to Broad to Constitution to Columbus and back to Kellam.

[RJWGMU]

to throw into the wish list hat, I would love to see Pembroke get a streetcar that ran in a circle along Kellam to Broad to Constitution to Columbus and back to Kellam.

sorry but I am totally not in like thinking with you about the street car idea. Not only would it snarl traffic and really make people whine about it, but it would be expensive and what is the benefit? people can walk a few blocks... not to mention it would limit the size of the TC in terms of future growth... almost like putting a ring around it and saying "grow inside"... it seems... touristy... ocean front yes, pembroke no

[urbanlife]

sorry but I am totally not in like thinking with you about the street car idea. Not only would it snarl traffic and really make people whine about it, but it would be expensive and what is the benefit? people can walk a few blocks... not to mention it would limit the size of the TC in terms of future growth... almost like putting a ring around it and saying "grow inside"... it seems... touristy... ocean front yes, pembroke no

not to sound rude and I totally understand that there is zero reference for this in Virginia Beach, but do you even know how a streetcar system works? The wishlist thinking had to do with the build up of Pembroke Mall and the expansion westward to the HQ site. Actually looking at a map, one can already see a border that will be reached for the downtown and the route that something like this would encompass would connect this locations together much nicer. Heck, if one wanted to get into further evaluation of the idea, it would be easy to say that from this loop lines could run off into inner neighborhoods and help strengthen the urban integrity of the area.

And you guys really need to lay off the whole "snarl traffic" thing. Trains dont cause traffic, cars cause traffic. By creating a loop like this would give people the option to walking or taking the train over to the other side of downtown when it one day starts to get built up more than its current state. By giving this option, there will be less of a need for one to move their car from one end of the downtown to the other, thus reducing the impact on traffic.

Is it an expensive idea? heck yeah, but so is light rail, should that not be built as well? Hell while we are on this topic, Walmart offered more money for the current location than Divaris did and everyone said this town center idea would just "snarl traffic," do you think that has been a waste of money as well?

As for touristy, does this look touristy?

thanks to the streetcar, it has allowed a dying warehouse district in Portland to become a high end urban neighborhood, the Pearl District, something I envision happening to the current location of Pembroke Mall. Most of the buildings in the Pearl District have been built within a 15 year span that has caused the urban boundary to almost double in the city.

before

today (actually more like a few years ago, it is missing about three new buildings that I can think of)

[Henry_Ryto]

Circuit City is bankrupt and per the Pilot will be liquidating their stores. Their store on Independence may be something the city should look at for a future station for Pembroke/TC.

I threw that very idea past Jim Wood (Councilman & HRT Commissioner) a few months ago, knowing Circuit City was in financial trouble. I just sent him a reminder e-mail, so hopefully we can get it done.

[Norfolk4Life]

Is it an expensive idea? heck yeah, but so is light rail, should that not be built as well?

As for touristy, does this look touristy?

thanks to the streetcar, it has allowed a dying warehouse district in Portland to become a high end urban neighborhood, the Pearl District, something I envision happening to the current location of Pembroke Mall. Most of the buildings in the Pearl District have been built within a 15 year span that has caused the urban boundary to almost double in the city.

umm... that is light rail. shared ROW light rail is nearly the same as this streetcar you speak of. Instead of creating some kind of loop, why lot extend a light rail line north, following Independence? It could make a left down Kellam, a right on Broad, go to the north of Pembroke Mall, and turn left on Constitution where it can follow Indep. north. That would encompass most of that area and its potencial. I don't think it needs to go on the east side of Pembroke at all. Unless Cox HS is moved to make way for development, there is no further expansion there.

[varider]

Is it an expensive idea? heck yeah, but so is light rail, should that not be built as well? Hell while we are on this topic, Walmart offered more money for the current location than Divaris did and everyone said this town center idea would just "snarl traffic," do you think that has been a waste of money as well?

As for touristy, does this look touristy?

thanks to the streetcar, it has allowed a dying warehouse district in Portland to become a high end urban neighborhood, the Pearl District, something I envision happening to the current location of Pembroke Mall. Most of the buildings in the Pearl District have been built within a 15 year span that has caused the urban boundary to almost double in the city.

before

today (actually more like a few years ago, it is missing about three new buildings that I can think of)

[varider]

http://hamptonroads.com/2009/01/beach-coun...ndum-light-rail

I guess it will be up to the citizens..

which is the most democratic decision haha

But it looks like this process will be slow and take about a year to a year and a half until they finalize the referendum.

[vdogg]

http://hamptonroads.com/2009/01/beach-coun...ndum-light-rail

I guess it will be up to the citizens..

which is the most democratic decision haha

But it looks like this process will be slow and take about a year to a year and a half until they finalize the referendum.

I don't see this as a good idea. Off season elections in this city tend to have low participation. The only ones who will be out in force will be the wingnuts of the VBTA. The majority of the city may be for this, but the majority of those who come out may not be. I think the council needs to grow a....umm...get some intestinal fortitude and expend some political capital for what they know is right. If they really want to go this route they need to put their hearts in it and run an appropriate advertising campaign and actually educate the public. If Reid Greenmun gets his way i'm going to scream.

[mlsimons]

I don't see this as a good idea. Off season elections in this city tend to have low participation. The only ones who will be out in force will be the wingnuts of the VBTA. The majority of the city may be for this, but the majority of those who come out may not be. I think the council needs to grow a....umm...get some intestinal fortitude and expend some political capital for what they know is right. If they really want to go this route they need to put their hearts in it and run an appropriate advertising campaign and actually educate the public. If Reid Greenmun gets his way i'm going to scream.

I agree, voting on light rail is like asking all the VB citizens to vote on tax dollar investments in Town Center BEFORE IT IS EVER BUILT. Can you imagine the mentality, "Want to vote on spending tax dollars on a town center?" Reply, "uhh, I would never use a Town Center...NO WAY!"

Light Rail is not the sort of thing that the average person knows that they will use beforehand. Ask someone to get out of their car make a culture change, before you see the finished product. Maybe if we took every VB citizen to Charlotte for a test ride first. The fact of the matter is there is a real possibility that oil prices will skyrocket sometime in the next 5 or 15 years. We as a nation may see a real "oil crisis." If so Americans will be glad to have mass transit, even if they didn't think so at first.

Trash the referendum, let the council use their experience and expertise to make a real representative decision!

[vdogg]

I think they should bring it to Town Center as a starter portion without a referendum. If they want to do a referendum then do it for the rest of the line after people have had a chance to see this thing work.

[mlsimons]

A rather striking post from one of the naysayers on VaPilot:

Beach council leans toward referendum on light rail

"Sure, let's vote on it again. The percentages may change a bit but the outcome will be the same. More than half will vote NO. If you can't afford a car, we don't want you coming to our city. There's too many crimes in VB where the criminals are convicted felons from Norfolk and Portsmouth."

I wanted to post the comment in its entirety because this clearly shows a common mentality shared among naysayers. Many of the naysayers in my family as well.

[urbanvb]

Maybe a delay is a good thing. By a couple of years hopefully the Tide will be up and running and people can get a sense for how great mass transit can be. At least the city is going forward with buying the land which is most important right now.

[mistermetaj]

Maybe a delay is a good thing. By a couple of years hopefully the Tide will be up and running and people can get a sense for how great mass transit can be. At least the city is going forward with buying the land which is most important right now.

If that damn Virginia Beach Market crap is built with its wave of surface lots, then forget LR. Maybe one day, but no where in the near future. There actually has to be a need, and that includes somewhat of a parking deficiency, something that will not exist with that new development.

This Sifen's guy really just set the city back to the early nineties all over again. Why doesn't city council and Sessoms do something about this.

Bye Bye LR. Hope Norfolk keeps it afloat for the next twenty years while the VB developers get their heads out of their a@##$

[varider]

If that damn Virginia Beach Market crap is built with its wave of surface lots, then forget LR. Maybe one day, but no where in the near future. There actually has to be a need, and that includes somewhat of a parking deficiency, something that will not exist with that new development.

This Sifen's guy really just set the city back to the early nineties all over again. Why doesn't city council and Sessoms do something about this.

Bye Bye LR. Hope Norfolk keeps it afloat for the next twenty years while the VB developers get their heads out of their a@##$

Now im not downgrading the stupidity of the strip mall but you have to remember that gateway tower, aloft, and other developments in the future are stilll coming to town center. I don't think this single strip mall will stop Sessoms' dream of light rail.