Virginia Beach Light Rail and Transit

[vdogg]

Now im not downgrading the stupidity of the strip mall but you have to remember that gateway tower, aloft, and other developments in the future are stilll coming to town center. I don't think this single strip mall will stop Sessoms' dream of light rail.

I agree, this alone won't stop light rail, but it doesn't help either. It is an auto-centric development on land that was previously reserved for TOD. We will most definitely take a step 20 years backwards if this comes to fruition. In fact, they'll have to redo the 2020 plans and strategic growth area studies after this. It will be a major setback.

[urbanlife]

just for a reference of what streetcar and light rail are in Portland.

streetcar

light rail

Though they technically both count as light rail, the second picture is a heavier version and typically the version that is used for major light rail project. I believe the trains Norfolk will be using are alot like this...though they might be a bit lighter version...it is funny the number of different trains out there that can be used. But when I refer to a streetcar I am talking about the top picture.

Minus the recent set back of the old HQ site, the idea of the loop through downtown would be to establish two things, a connection to the four parts of the future of downtown. (which the reasoning for looping it close to high school is under the idea that if Pembroke were to become and urban grid, this would then be running through the area). Granted I am very aware for something like this to work, it would require Pembroke Mall and the old HQ site to become urban locations in downtown. Thus if that didnt happen, then the loop wouldnt make sense.

The reasoning for the loop idea through downtown, which is wouldnt create a border for the downtown because rail is nothing like interstates, would be to create a central circle that future lines could run off of and out to different part of the city. Basically, if one wishes to see this idea in action that I am referring to, all you have to do is look at the Chicago system and think of this idea as a very baby version of that. Plus if these expansion lines were to run off the loop into neighborhoods, it could then be done in a way to promote urban growth outside of downtown.

But this is all just wishful thinking while some douchebag of a developer is clinging to his old suburban ways like it were a bible he was holding at a punk rock concert.

[scm]

I'm not sure where you are getting your info, but the extension that is most liked by HRT, Norfolk, and NOB....

Virginian-Pilot, November 27, 2008

Fraim wants light rail extended past the Midtown Tunnel northward to Old Dominion University and the Norfolk Naval Station.

Also, according to the report, there would be no shuttle. It would be replaced by a LRT loop that would make a complete loop every 15 minutes.

Maybe made sense in 1999, but is unthinkable in a post-September 11th force protection world. I do not know a commander in the world that will sign off on allowing a light rail system to run on to their base. There are so many problems with that, that it isn't worth listing all of them. Problems that don't exist with a bus route. Maybe that's why I can't think of a base in the US that has a light rail line running on to it, yet there are hundreds of bus routes on to bases. And yes, there are cities with LR that have bases, San Diego being one of the first.

[scm]

since im tired of people speculating about stops for an NOB-bound LRT, Here are some maps that might clear it up:

This is the NOB Loop that was suggested and approved by NOB that would replace the current shuttle:

These are accurate as described in the 1999 Alternatives report distributed by HRT

That on base loop may have made sense in 1999, but will NEVER happen in a post 9/11 world. See all of the enhanced gates on every base in the area? They reflect a complete change in the approach to force protection, including off base commercial vehicle screening. You can have bus access -- easy to screen the ID cards of the 30 passengers on a bus -- stop it, put a MA on board, have him check the cards. Try doing that with the up to 230 on a two car LR construct. You can build a barrier that will stop a hijacked bus -- the pop up barriers at the rebuilt gates will do that. Can you build one that will stop a 97,000 lb. LR vehicle? Doubt it. And on and on. No base CO will ever see the LR access, no matter how desireable, as being worth the increased risk over a base shuttle, connecting to an off base LR station.

[scm]

Yes I am serious. So you think we shouldn't prepare for such a scenario? By the way, your sarcasm is inappropriate, bottom line!

No, I was asking you to describe a scenario, and project the probablities. It is the height of folly to make major infrastructure investments on conjecture or improbabilities.

We can start with the impracticalities of the LR not running where people live, ignoring the fact that 95% currently get to work by car so would probably drive a car if they were ordered to report. After that, wonder how long it will take the nine 230 capacity LR vehicles to move the 70,000 folks? Twenty hours or so? Then, we can get into the fact that if there was an attack on NOB, the last thing wanted would be another 50,000 or so at the scene, ships would probably get underway with the duty section so there would be nowhere for people to report, etc., etc., etc.

You might not like the "negative comments". Doesn't mean they aren't valid.

[urbanlife]

scm have you ever used light rail, I am just curious? I am not asking to be negative, I am just trying to understand everyone's understanding of it...actually this question is for everyone.

I can buy the argument about the issue with a public light rail train on base, but something like that would have a stop at the entrance then be handled by a bus after that. Your scenario about all 70,000 people needing to report at once, how many parking spaces does NOB have...hell what kind of traffic would that cause to begin with? So seeing that the base has never been attacked that I am aware of, what would be the scenario for the daily use of the trains? Will they replace all the cars that drive to NOB? no, not even close, but giving an alternative would reduce the number of drivers and would reduce some of the heavy traffic.

Still though, I am trying to figure out why you feel so strongly against light rail when it has been proven in cities across the country as a great alternative for transportation in cities.

[scm]

scm have you ever used light rail, I am just curious? I am not asking to be negative, I am just trying to understand everyone's understanding of it...actually this question is for everyone.

I can buy the argument about the issue with a public light rail train on base, but something like that would have a stop at the entrance then be handled by a bus after that. Your scenario about all 70,000 people needing to report at once, how many parking spaces does NOB have...hell what kind of traffic would that cause to begin with? So seeing that the base has never been attacked that I am aware of, what would be the scenario for the daily use of the trains? Will they replace all the cars that drive to NOB? no, not even close, but giving an alternative would reduce the number of drivers and would reduce some of the heavy traffic.

Still though, I am trying to figure out why you feel so strongly against light rail when it has been proven in cities across the country as a great alternative for transportation in cities.

Man, you got the wrong guy. Starting at the end, I am not opposed to light rail -- to paraphrase the PEO, I am just against dumb light rail. Spending money to extend it to NOB via ODU is dumb light rail -- given all of the things I have laid out, in excruciating detail (current low mass transit usage, cultural biases towards car ownership, force protection), it is not the highest and best use of limited resources. Solving the water crossing bottlenecks is the highest and best usage.

Second, I wasn't the one that came up with the ridiculous scenario of a catastrophe at NOB as a justification for light rail. I think (dangerous as that is), you see it like me.

Third, yes -- I lived in Germany for over three years. First year and a half, I didn't own a car. Rode light rail to work daily. Walked to the station, LR, transfer to a bus. In good weather, rode my bike the last mile and 1/2. I understand the power of an integrated mass transit system to positively effect change. Just spent a week in San Diego -- longest time back in twenty years. Stayed right in the Gaslamp Quarter, which has changed in ways I didn't think possible. I have to believe that one of the catalysts for that change was the start of the trolley twenty five years ago.

[urbanlife]

I do agree with you that having LR running up through Hampton Blvd would be a waste because it would make more sense to have it run up 64 to NOB as well as connect to the airport along that route. Thus would make it 3 lines for the area. A line that ran from downtown Norfolk to the airport then NOB, then there would be a line that ran from VB to the airport then NOB, then finally a line that ran from Norfolk to VB.

Though by line, I mean a train line, not separate tracks. By running a route up 64 to NOB would reduce the timeframe for anyone coming from VB.

And actually, I think the connection to the airport is more important than NOB, but I think there are enough people that work there that it needs to connect to it somehow.

Now for the route up to ODU, a streetcar that ran up through Colley and shifted over to Hampton after 21st would make much more sense. By streetcar, I mean a lighter version of light rail which is designed to handle tighter urban areas. Something like that running up Colley would have a tremendous impact on new development in that area.

[scm]

Urbanlife, you and I are so on the same wavelength, mostly (more on that later). The 64 HOV route will get the times from VB down low enough to be attractive to NOB destinators. Also naturally leads to a route on around 64 to Chesapeake. The "wind through downtown" route is a loser. Still don't think you will ever get the trains on base, however.

I had thought about the streetcar option several times. One of the real potential effects is to make Colley Ave. more of a walking zone. I'd close off Colley from PA to 21st, except for cross traffic and the streetcars. Ghent has so much potential, but it has to become more pedestrian friendly. Now, it is too car centric. I was in Strasbourg in December. Rode this really cool streetcar from the P&R in to town -- low access, would be perfect for what you are talking about.

We part ways on the airport thing, however. I just don't think there will be enough ridership. This isn't like the Denver or DFW airports -- we are fairly close to the center of the community. I don't think there is enough of a central destination for inbound traffic -- I forgot who told me this, but it was someone in the VB travel industry, but they said 95% of oceanfront tourists arrive by car. There is little to no air travel to the oceanfront. I wish it would work -- I just don't think it will.

Edited January 19, 2009 by scm

[urbanlife]

Urbanlife, you and I are so on the same wavelength, mostly (more on that later). The 64 HOV route will get the times from VB down low enough to be attractive to NOB destinators. Also naturally leads to a route on around 64 to Chesapeake. The "wind through downtown" route is a loser. Still don't think you will ever get the trains on base, however.

I had thought about the streetcar option several times. One of the real potential effects is to make Colley Ave. more of a walking zone. I'd close off Colley from PA to 21st, except for cross traffic and the streetcars. Ghent has so much potential, but it has to become more pedestrian friendly. Now, it is too car centric. I was in Strasbourg in December. Rode this really cool streetcar from the P&R in to town -- low access, would be perfect for what you are talking about.

We part ways on the airport thing, however. I just don't think there will be enough ridership. This isn't like the Denver or DFW airports -- we are fairly close to the center of the community. I don't think there is enough of a central destination for inbound traffic -- I forgot who told me this, but it was someone in the VB travel industry, but they said 95% of oceanfront tourists arrive by car. There is little to no air travel to the oceanfront. I wish it would work -- I just don't think it will.

How about this, simple solution to the airport issue, which this actually makes alot of sense and is what they did at Oakland's airport which is much smaller than Norfolk's and really only has Southwest. The idea would be to make a Norview stop on 64, then at that station a shuttle bus could run from their to the airport, seeing that it is such a short distance. Cause looking at the map, it would be costly to run it directly to the airport, but this method would just be a stop on a route.

I have to disagree about the closing of Ghent to only streetcar traffic. Or streetcar works just fine and a two lane two way road that it runs down in one of our neighborhoods. I think it would work fine with the traffic, there would just be a loop at EVMS then another one at ODU. For some reason, this country doesnt work well when you close streets to traffic, especially Norfolk, which I think will never close another street after the issue with Granby.

[mlsimons]

Edited January 20, 2009 by mlsimons

[mlsimons]

No, I was asking you to describe a scenario, and project the probablities. It is the height of folly to make major infrastructure investments on conjecture or improbabilities.

We can start with the impracticalities of the LR not running where people live, ignoring the fact that 95% currently get to work by car so would probably drive a car if they were ordered to report. After that, wonder how long it will take the nine 230 capacity LR vehicles to move the 70,000 folks? Twenty hours or so? Then, we can get into the fact that if there was an attack on NOB, the last thing wanted would be another 50,000 or so at the scene, ships would probably get underway with the duty section so there would be nowhere for people to report, etc., etc., etc.

You might not like the "negative comments". Doesn't mean they aren't valid.

Ok, let me explain. Whenever I post comments concerning Light rail's possible benefits...I am referring to these benefits as Hampton Roads will be once light rail has arrived. We can't expect everything to be the same. This would be a planning fallacy, we must think of how things will change, especaially along the way. First, military personel would be the mostly likely demographic to move closer to a rail line. Their length of stay tends to be for shorter time periods and they would likely be more encouraged by their employer, via incentives (free passes, parking fees), than their civilian counterparts. So although 95% now commute by car. In the 10 or so years after a potential rail line would be built to NOB, I expect some or many would regularly use this method, and I expect some to not own cars at all, i.e. younger servicemen. Now, in the time the full line is built to NOB...LRT will without a doubt have way more than 9 trains running. So, in my example of a national/regional emergency. This could be a serious threat to our nation or another nation. Which would require all service men to report for immediate duty/briefing. I was not refering to a terrorist attack on NOB...i can see how that assumption could confuse you.

BUT, if such a terrorist threat or attack was to ever occur at NOB. The option of packing servicemen/women into trains as well as cars and busses(which would mostly back up on 564, unless a plan to reroute both directions was quickly implemented) would be utilized quickly. A third such scenerio would be if another "Katrina" like event happened somewhere in the nation/world, which could have been delt with immediately if all alpha servicemen reported to NOB for shipping to the gulf coast to allieviate rescue efforts on the ground. This described "flooding of military" into the New Orleans region could have saved hundreds of lives in the critical days after the storm...that is if the calling had been made for all military to report for departure within an hour.

I know this last situation seems hypothetical and unlikely, to an extent, but this is a real life scenerio that can be argued matters to our area and transportation planning, especially concerning NOB.

Ok, I've elaborated and not used sarcasim or negativity. Please feel free to respond repectfully and in a constructively critical manner.

I've addressed your issues of "not running where people live," the current fact about "95% of commuters currently driving to NOB" also the potential problem of "only 9 cars which are currently projected for the first line" and the "possible scenerios which NOB may face in an emergency situation"

You are right, that I do not like "negative comments" but we can be critical and valid just fine without being negative.

Edited January 20, 2009 by mlsimons

[mlsimons]

Whenever I mention an NOB extention line. I too am refering to the 64 route...not the Hampton Blvd route. An extention of the current line can be routed behind west ghent and down powatan to terminate at ODU. But I do not favor routing a line down Hampton Blvd whatsoever!

[scm]

First, military personel would be the mostly likely demographic to move closer to a rail line. Their length of stay tends to be for shorter time periods and they would likely be more encouraged by their employer, via incentives (free passes, parking fees), than their civilian counterparts. So although 95% now commute by car. In the 10 or so years after a potential rail line would be built to NOB, I expect some or many would regularly use this method, and I expect some to not own cars at all, i.e. younger servicemen.

You are attempting to predict the behavior of a population that I can pretty well state I know much better than you do. First, "younger servicemen" usually don't live off base, and even fewer will in the near future. Off base housing allowances are only paid to single Petty Officers with more than four years service, and can be paid to all married sailors of any rank. The single junior sailors (which comprise about 40% of the Navy) either live on their ship or in a barracks, on base. The Navy is building thousands of new rooms, all on base, for single sailors. You can see the first ones just north of Int'l Blvd, east of the Marine Exchange.

Next, to think that the Navy will ever impose "parking fees" on commuters is a fantasy. I promise you, having been in a position to worry about these issues, any commander is more concerned about the morale of his command than he is about creating a coercive utopia. No CO will want to listen to the complaining about the inequity of a parking fee at NOB, when there isn't one any where else in the Navy, including LC, NAS Oceana, Dam Neck..... The current incentives don't work -- for many cultural reasons that I tried to explain -- and won't magically start working when it is via rail vice bus. Look at the behavior of US servicemembers in Germany, with one of the most advanced public transportation systems in the world. NO SERVICEMEMBERS use public transportation to get to work from off base. Just doesn't happen.

You can dream up all of the scenarios you want that require a massive number of people to report to duty. It happens every day and is called commuting, all in about a three hour period, mostly by single occupancy vehicles. No greater volume required for any scenario you can create.

[scm]

I have to disagree about the closing of Ghent to only streetcar traffic. Or streetcar works just fine and a two lane two way road that it runs down in one of our neighborhoods. I think it would work fine with the traffic, there would just be a loop at EVMS then another one at ODU. For some reason, this country doesnt work well when you close streets to traffic, especially Norfolk, which I think will never close another street after the issue with Granby.

Boy, I just think Colley is too narrow in that area for street cars and vehicles. I understand the Granby experience coloring today, but that was in a much different era. If the city builds the parking garage they talked about behind No Frill Grill, and allowed cross traffic, then I don't see it as the same thing. Heck, there is too much conflict now between pedestrians and cars on Colley. That area is begging to be a walking zone.

I did think about why there are so many more "fussganger zones" in Germany than there are in England and France. Large shopping areas like the Zeil in Frankfurt and Koeningstrasse in Stuttgart completely closed to vehicles. Almost none in Paris or London -- even Regent Street has bus and taxi access. Cultural issues?

[urbanlife]

Boy, I just think Colley is too narrow in that area for street cars and vehicles. I understand the Granby experience coloring today, but that was in a much different era. If the city builds the parking garage they talked about behind No Frill Grill, and allowed cross traffic, then I don't see it as the same thing. Heck, there is too much conflict now between pedestrians and cars on Colley. That area is begging to be a walking zone.

I did think about why there are so many more "fussganger zones" in Germany than there are in England and France. Large shopping areas like the Zeil in Frankfurt and Koeningstrasse in Stuttgart completely closed to vehicles. Almost none in Paris or London -- even Regent Street has bus and taxi access. Cultural issues?

Actually just to point out Colley isnt too narrow for that, looking at it, our streets that it runs down are narrower than Colley which also has something to do with why it runs up one street and down another....of course there are other reasons as well, they wished for the first line to reach as many people as possible.

I am not gonna lie, I cuss alittle if I ever get stuck behind the train cause it is no different than getting stopped behind a bus...but I guess that is sort of the point that I am making, if they can run a bus down Colley, they can run a streetcar. Plus they do make streetcars that are smaller than the one we use in Portland.

I still dont see Norfolk doing a walking zone ever again, I still remember when Granby was a walking zone and it was basically filled with closed buildings, hookers, and drug dealers. Not saying the same thing would happen to Colley, but I can see how some of the government there would be in fear of that idea.

Colley Ave.

Portland

[mlsimons]

You are attempting to predict the behavior of a population that I can pretty well state I know much better than you do. First, "younger servicemen" usually don't live off base, and even fewer will in the near future. Off base housing allowances are only paid to single Petty Officers with more than four years service, and can be paid to all married sailors of any rank. The single junior sailors (which comprise about 40% of the Navy) either live on their ship or in a barracks, on base. The Navy is building thousands of new rooms, all on base, for single sailors. You can see the first ones just north of Int'l Blvd, east of the Marine Exchange.

Next, to think that the Navy will ever impose "parking fees" on commuters is a fantasy. I promise you, having been in a position to worry about these issues, any commander is more concerned about the morale of his command than he is about creating a coercive utopia. No CO will want to listen to the complaining about the inequity of a parking fee at NOB, when there isn't one any where else in the Navy, including LC, NAS Oceana, Dam Neck..... The current incentives don't work -- for many cultural reasons that I tried to explain -- and won't magically start working when it is via rail vice bus. Look at the behavior of US servicemembers in Germany, with one of the most advanced public transportation systems in the world. NO SERVICEMEMBERS use public transportation to get to work from off base. Just doesn't happen.

You can dream up all of the scenarios you want that require a massive number of people to report to duty. It happens every day and is called commuting, all in about a three hour period, mostly by single occupancy vehicles. No greater volume required for any scenario you can create.

Whoa, how are you assuming that I do not know what I'm talking about?? I am/will not assume that about you, and yes you may know plenty about military policy. But I'm talking about economic policy. When the base finds itself low on building space, which currently is the case. The highest and best use of the land will be for utility serving purposing...whether it be barracks, facilities or any other purpose needed. This will cause NOB to look at encouraging commuters to use alternate methods of transportation, should LRT exist at the time, so parking space can be converted for a better purpose.

And Yes I do know that most younger service men live on base, please read completely what I am saying and don't assume I don't know the basic info that should go without saying. Younger servicemen are usually the ones WITHOUT CARS and even though new barracks have just been built. In the future these servicemen may be the first commuters to live offbase and without a car, if LRT is here. Space is always limited, even on ships and in barracks. If the Navy sees a way to encourage its servicemen to find private housing without having to provide an allowance, they will encourage this.

Now, incentives. I understand that parking fees are a rarity amond military bases. But if a fee is used as an incentive...(Example: charge a fee for onbase parking but provide a free Light Rail monthly pass to those who choose this method of transportation.) Then the military will incorporate it. Not on the basis of efficiency or "utopia" but because less demand on parking means more land to utilize.

This is not a picture of the near future, or some personal utopian dream, this the economic reality for the longterm, on the basis of Light Rail arriving. No it is not a fact. Don't hold my words as a prophesy. I am curiously examining the possibilities of how NOB would benefit should LRT arrive. It may not...probably not. Either way, its not worth you bullying people around trying to shove everyone's ideas off the table just because they may not be your taste.

I know you have a hard time accepting the notion that one day servicemen may ride to NOB via light rail. That's fine. You may be right. But if it were to occur, these are my ideas as to why/how.

[mlsimons]

Boy, I just think Colley is too narrow in that area for street cars and vehicles. I understand the Granby experience coloring today, but that was in a much different era. If the city builds the parking garage they talked about behind No Frill Grill, and allowed cross traffic, then I don't see it as the same thing. Heck, there is too much conflict now between pedestrians and cars on Colley. That area is begging to be a walking zone.

I did think about why there are so many more "fussganger zones" in Germany than there are in England and France. Large shopping areas like the Zeil in Frankfurt and Koeningstrasse in Stuttgart completely closed to vehicles. Almost none in Paris or London -- even Regent Street has bus and taxi access. Cultural issues?

The city council just changed the zoning behind "No Frill" so whatever they have planned is most likely coming soon.

[scm]

Now, incentives. I understand that parking fees are a rarity amond military bases. But if a fee is used as an incentive...(Example: charge a fee for onbase parking but provide a free Light Rail monthly pass to those who choose this method of transportation.) Then the military will incorporate it. Not on the basis of efficiency or "utopia" but because less demand on parking means more land to utilize.

Why wait for the future? Here is an idea you can work on right now --- Since LR is coming to the EVMS/CHKD/SNGH campus, then why don't you get those entities to start charging for their staff parking, which is currently free? Make it up with a free LR pass? In the interest of good economic policy, the city could do the same with the currently free employee parking in the City Hall North Garage. It would be tough to get the Navy to do what you advocate, if the City, who owns part of the Tide, isn't willing to go for it.

Let me know how that works out.

[mlsimons]

Why wait for the future? Here is an idea you can work on right now --- Since LR is coming to the EVMS/CHKD/SNGH campus, then why don't you get those entities to start charging for their staff parking, which is currently free? Make it up with a free LR pass? In the interest of good economic policy, the city could do the same with the currently free employee parking in the City Hall North Garage. It would be tough to get the Navy to do what you advocate, if the City, who owns part of the Tide, isn't willing to go for it.

Let me know how that works out.

Lots of employers charge their employees for parking. Like ODU who charge their professors over $335 for the year for those making over 60,000/year.

And if you want a reserved spot that will be $685 for the year.

I think light rail is planning on building a route to ODU...so yeah you can say that the enourmous parking fee will be an incentive to commute via Light Rail.

Edited January 22, 2009 by mlsimons

[scm]

Lots of employers charge their employees for parking. ...

Apples to oranges. You want to charge commuters not currently paying for parking, to incentivize them to ride LR. Comparing ONE example (not exactly LOTS, now is it?) that is currently charged, is flawed logic. (not to mention the fact that dammed few sailors make > $60K) Sailors look for any thing to complain about -- when I was a CO, we (mainly me and my command master chief) dealt with them all the time. I certainly didn't need a coercive utopian idea adding to the list. Deployments, family issues -- all real concerns -- kept enough in the pile to not need something as silly as a one of a kind parking fee in the mix. It is easy to advocate something when you don't have to deal with the fallout.

Like I said, when you convince the City, with a financial interest in the Tide, to start charging its employees who currently pay nothing to park, then you can make the case for the Navy to start charging sailors, who pay nothing to park. Until then, it's pontification.

[mlsimons]

Apples to oranges. You want to charge commuters not currently paying for parking, to incentivize them to ride LR. Comparing ONE example (not exactly LOTS, now is it?) that is currently charged, is flawed logic. (not to mention the fact that dammed few sailors make > $60K) Sailors look for any thing to complain about -- when I was a CO, we (mainly me and my command master chief) dealt with them all the time. I certainly didn't need a coercive utopian idea adding to the list. Deployments, family issues -- all real concerns -- kept enough in the pile to not need something as silly as a one of a kind parking fee in the mix. It is easy to advocate something when you don't have to deal with the fallout.

Like I said, when you convince the City, with a financial interest in the Tide, to start charging its employees who currently pay nothing to park, then you can make the case for the Navy to start charging sailors, who pay nothing to park. Until then, it's pontification.

What are you talking about???? NO, I would not be surprised if the city began charging city employees for parking downtown in exchange for handing out free LRT passes.

And NO, I would not be surprise to see NOB do the same if LRT ever went to the base.

Edited January 23, 2009 by mlsimons

[urbanlife]

Apples to oranges. You want to charge commuters not currently paying for parking, to incentivize them to ride LR. Comparing ONE example (not exactly LOTS, now is it?) that is currently charged, is flawed logic. (not to mention the fact that dammed few sailors make > $60K) Sailors look for any thing to complain about -- when I was a CO, we (mainly me and my command master chief) dealt with them all the time. I certainly didn't need a coercive utopian idea adding to the list. Deployments, family issues -- all real concerns -- kept enough in the pile to not need something as silly as a one of a kind parking fee in the mix. It is easy to advocate something when you don't have to deal with the fallout.

Like I said, when you convince the City, with a financial interest in the Tide, to start charging its employees who currently pay nothing to park, then you can make the case for the Navy to start charging sailors, who pay nothing to park. Until then, it's pontification.

Parking is free at the town center, doesnt mean it will always be free. Not saying NOB will be willing to do something like this, but if ever come a time that parking becomes a limit on the base or the Navy mindset changes and they wish to begin promoting the alternatives, it could happen...we do currently have our first black president.

[varider]

http://hamptonroads.com/2009/01/beachs-lig...cost-40-million

[HarryVB]

I don't understand why the city can not aquire the Norfolk southern right away and continue using standard passenger trains. That would save the city millions and it would bring alil history back to the norfolk southern railline.. History does repeat it self. Having a passenger train run from the Norfolk's current Lighrail system to Town Center, Rosemont, lynnhaven, the city wouldnt have to put out soo much. Just throw a standard passenger train and that fixes the money issues for the time being. The train can be named Beach Express.. And it fits.. its running from the beach to Town center to Newtown.. Lightrail doesnt seem all that mass to me or anyone.. If you wanna invest money in Mass transit.. It needs to be worth wild.. Mass transit is a fast network of transportation.. Lightrail is a light transportation system.. Standard Trains are Mass Transit.. Look at the Fredericksburg Train that runs from Fredericksburg to washington dc..I dont recall the name. Once the Beach Express train becomes functional and start making money. they could put the money aside for future lightrail options which could pay for the system without taxpayer dollars. Once the city feels like its time to extend lightrail to the beach. While the Beach Express is still active.. the lighrail could start being built across the city.. Princess Anne court house district, Sentara PA campus, TCC/Colleges campuses, The new project on PA/Indepedence .Renassicace Park. Another Mixed use development. Kempsville district.. the city could continue using Beach Express until its satisfied with the transportation network it has paid for. Or they cuold stop the system and create a new modern transportation system. Monorail or extend lightrail like they wanted. it would be smart to keep the current rail line and use standard passenger trains to make money from the current system. Tak advantage of the opporunity.

Edited January 24, 2009 by HarryVB