CANCELED: Divinity Development

[Mith242]

I certainly wish Rogers was getting this in their downtown, this looks amazing!! Fayetteville should feel lucky, it's starting to look like a big city!!

Yeah but the problem is that there are a lot of people in Fayetteville who don't want Fayetteville to be or even look like a big city. I recently read an argument from someone who thinks Fayetteville should be kept exactly the way it is now. There are also people who believe we need to start emphasizing zero growth. You obviously can't please everyone. But it does seem a bit ironic that many people in Fayetteville are fighting against something that probably just about any other place in the state would be happy to have. Although I shouldn't make it sound like everyone in the city is opposed to this. There are supporters for the Divinity development. I thought one of the editorials in the Northwest Arkansas Times was humorous today. He was talking about how 'horrible' it would be to have a building taking away focus from the Post Office on Dickson St. For those of you not familiar with Fayetteville or the post office there, it's certainly nothing to look at. In some ways I personally think the post office detracts away from the rest of Dickson St. Especially in the future when more developments happen near Dickson. But it is does play an important function so I can't complain about it too much.

[Mith242]

Okay Brandon Rains of the Barber Group sent me another rendering of the Divinity development. Although he did point out that this rendering would just give an idea of the scale of the building. It doesn't show the actual materials that are being planned for the development. Now I have to see if he'll send me some renderings of the Spring Street Lofts. Haven't seen much from the Barber Group development so far.

[Aporkalypse]

Yes, that would be impressive.

But it still wouldn't be "downtown".

BTW, Legacy is actually 3 1/2 times the size of Pinnacle Hills. I don't know where you got your numbers, but Legacy comprises over 2600 acres of master planned community. It dwarfs Pinnacle Hills.

http://www.legacyinplano.com/

Ditto, that would mean Legacy is only 150 acres and I can tell you it is dramatically larger than that. Of course, it is multilevel mixed use so it takes much better use of that area.

It's a actually a pretty cool development for being way the hell out. I was out there the other day looking around and noticed the EDS and J.C. Penney's HQs - those are some impressive buildings.

[Mith242]

The plans for the Divinity development have been forwarded from the Planning Commission to the City Council. The Planning Commission didn't give it their recomendation, but the Barber Group still wanted it discussed, instead of having to wait around. I guess this way the Barber Group will at least find out what they're going to have to do to get this project going. While some people have had concerns about the 'look' of the development Mayor Dan Coody said he thins the only issue is the height of the building. There's been a mention to this issue being somewhat similar to the Kohl's debate. A lot of people think Fred Hanna lost his re-election bid because of his approval of Kohl's. Another interesting fact is that city officials have recieved more e-mail about this than the smoking ban. Really looks like this is going to end up being messy when it's all said and done.

[Mith242]

If I remember correctly, the council at that time was much more pro-business (or, anti environment, depending on your perspective) and the vote on Kohl's ended up a tie. Mayor Hanna had to place the deciding tie-breaker vote on the trees in that field and he sided with the retailer.

I'm surprised that this building is recieving this much response from citizens.

I figured that it would draw scrutiny from city planners, and I don't really like it that well myself. After seeing the better renderings, I don't really have super strong feelings about it, other than a few suggestions about what I personally think would make the project better.

Apparently a lot of people do. The way this one is handled will set a precedent, I suppose.

Yeah, I'm not sure if all of this has been pent-up frustration over the trend that's been happening with the Legacy Building and the Lofts at Underwood Plaza that's finally spilled out or what. As I said earlier not everyone is against this development but those opposed to it are making a lot of noise. Reminds me a bit of the Grandview Heights on Beaver Lake again. Except I think those opposing it have a lot better shot than those opposing the condos at Beaver Lake. This surpassing the smoking issue really surprises me. One thing lost in a lot of this is how much revenue this will provide the city and the school system. Unlike some of the other NWA cities our main employer isn't a company it's the university and it doesn't help provide funds for the school system the way companies like Wal-mart or Tyson do. I guess I'd just hate to see an opportunity like this lost. Oh well I'm sure there will be more info and discussion as this continues.

[itk]

Yeah but the problem is that there are a lot of people in Fayetteville who don't want Fayetteville to be or even look like a big city. I recently read an argument from someone who thinks Fayetteville should be kept exactly the way it is now. There are also people who believe we need to start emphasizing zero growth. You obviously can't please everyone. But it does seem a bit ironic that many people in Fayetteville are fighting against something that probably just about any other place in the state would be happy to have. Although I shouldn't make it sound like everyone in the city is opposed to this. There are supporters for the Divinity development. I thought one of the editorials in the Northwest Arkansas Times was humorous today. He was talking about how 'horrible' it would be to have a building taking away focus from the Post Office on Dickson St. For those of you not familiar with Fayetteville or the post office there, it's certainly nothing to look at. In some ways I personally think the post office detracts away from the rest of Dickson St. Especially in the future when more developments happen near Dickson. But it is does play an important function so I can't complain about it too much.

Yeah, but I sympathize with these people. Most of these people I think (just a guess based on growing up there) moved to these neighborhoods in downtown Fayetteville, or near Dickson, Wilson Park, Mt. Seqouyah, etc., because they truly loved the area just the way it is. Not because it is affordable, or has good schools, etc., but primarily because of the nature/feel (for lack of a better word) of the area.

So when something like this comes in, it is very contrary to most of the local residences' reasons for living there in the first place.

That being said, however, I don't know how it would adversely impact their lifestyle, other than increasing traffic and being a potential "eye sore" to them in their opinion. Change is going to happen no matter what.

[Mith242]

Yeah, but I sympathize with these people. Most of these people I think (just a guess based on growing up there) moved to these neighborhoods in downtown Fayetteville, or near Dickson, Wilson Park, Mt. Seqouyah, etc., because they truly loved the area just the way it is. Not because it is affordable, or has good schools, etc., but primarily because of the nature/feel (for lack of a better word) of the area.

So when something like this comes in, it is very contrary to most of the local residences' reasons for living there in the first place.

That being said, however, I don't know how it would adversely impact their lifestyle, other than increasing traffic and being a potential "eye sore" to them in their opinion. Change is going to happen no matter what.

I can sympathize with people who feel like that to a certain degree. But I think some of these people who want and expect to keep Fayetteville just the way it is, is just flat out unrealistic. You can't have all this growth and not expect that things are going to change. Although I do like the small city/nature feel in many parts of the city, I think it's not very realistic to expect that the downtown area if going to be able to have that type of 'feel'. Cities just don't really work that way, especially when you start talking about cities/metros the size of this area. Of course if you wanted to cut down on the number of some of these type of developments you could give the go ahead to a really large development but I doubt many people are going to want that. I'm sure there are people who do want Fayetteville to be more 'city-like' and build up a lot more. Honestly I think the way to go is to compromise and allow some building up. I admit there are probably other areas of the city that may be more fitting for a development like the Divinity development. Then again there's a reason as to why they want it on Dickson and not north Fayetteville. I've wondered if there could be a way for them to find some land a little closer to the center core of the downtown area to build something like this. But there are a lot of factors involved and trying to find another plot of land elsewhere in the downtown area might not work. People would probably complain about it being built somewhere else for that matter. But anyway this is just my opinion obviously. I prefer building up like this. Not only do you cut down on sprawl you also increase density. To be honest many parts of the city lack density to provide good city services like a more efficient bus service. It's also much easier to provide utilities when you have more density than simply sprawling out. I've really become a big fan of new urbanism and this type of development fits well with it. Anyway just my perspective on all of this.

[Aporkalypse]

I can sympathize with people who feel like that to a certain degree. But I think some of these people who want and expect to keep Fayetteville just the way it is, is just flat out unrealistic. You can't have all this growth and not expect that things are going to change. Although I do like the small city/nature feel in many parts of the city, I think it's not very realistic to expect that the downtown area if going to be able to have that type of 'feel'. Cities just don't really work that way, especially when you start talking about cities/metros the size of this area. Of course if you wanted to cut down on the number of some of these type of developments you could give the go ahead to a really large development but I doubt many people are going to want that. I'm sure there are people who do want Fayetteville to be more 'city-like' and build up a lot more. Honestly I think the way to go is to compromise and allow some building up. I admit there are probably other areas of the city that may be more fitting for a development like the Divinity development. Then again there's a reason as to why they want it on Dickson and not north Fayetteville. I've wondered if there could be a way for them to find some land a little closer to the center core of the downtown area to build something like this. But there are a lot of factors involved and trying to find another plot of land elsewhere in the downtown area might not work. People would probably complain about it being built somewhere else for that matter. But anyway this is just my opinion obviously. I prefer building up like this. Not only do you cut down on sprawl you also increase density. To be honest many parts of the city lack density to provide good city services like a more efficient bus service. It's also much easier to provide utilities when you have more density than simply sprawling out. I've really become a big fan of new urbanism and this type of development fits well with it. Anyway just my perspective on all of this.

You can keep the town's unique feel while developing it. I think Austin did a really good job of this.

Granted the comparison is tough because Fayetteville isn't the state capital and lacks a big corporate presence and is much smaller.

Austin has a height restriction because of the state Capitol and this has led to more mid-rise buildings instead of a few high rises. It has also created a nice, pedestrian-friendly streetscape.

[masons_dad1]

Yes, that would be impressive.

But it still wouldn't be "downtown".

BTW, Legacy is actually 3 1/2 times the size of Pinnacle Hills. I don't know where you got your numbers, but Legacy comprises over 2600 acres of master planned community. It dwarfs Pinnacle Hills.

http://www.legacyinplano.com/

I knew something didn't sound right about the Legacy development being 150 acres. Just the Legacy Town Center, which I guess is just the shopping district of Legacy is 150 acres. But, you were using Legacy Town Center as an example so I responded to that. Had I known you meant the entire Legacy development I might have done more research into the full scope of Legacy.

BTW... EDS is the company that Ross Perot built in the 80's and I remember some 15 years ago trying to get a job at the EDS building somewhere north of Dallas... I guess it was Plano. Is this the same building? I remember there was a lot of construction going on around the building at that time and I was wondering if it was actually the beginning stage of Legacy??? Wow, who would've known 15 years ago all that undeveloped land would someday become Legacy? That must be what they'll be saying about Pinnacle Hills 15 years from now.

[masons_dad1]

Ditto, that would mean Legacy is only 150 acres and I can tell you it is dramatically larger than that. Of course, it is multilevel mixed use so it takes much better use of that area.

It's a actually a pretty cool development for being way the hell out. I was out there the other day looking around and noticed the EDS and J.C. Penney's HQs - those are some impressive buildings.

Legacy Town Center is 150 acres. That doesn't include EDS, all the Headquarters and businesses and apartments on that awesome interactive map of LTC. I'm not really sure what acreage the business park of Pinnacle Hills covers, but like you said LTC makes great use of the land with many multi-story buildings.

I think Hollywood will be looking at LTC to film their next big blockbuster sci-fi movie there.

TRIVIA: Did you know that the movie Robocop was filmed in Dallas? The OCP building was actually a building in Dallas that was only around 8 stories tall so the remainder of the skyscraper was actually painted into the movie.

[Mith242]

You can keep the town's unique feel while developing it. I think Austin did a really good job of this.

Granted the comparison is tough because Fayetteville isn't the state capital and lacks a big corporate presence and is much smaller.

Austin has a height restriction because of the state Capitol and this has led to more mid-rise buildings instead of a few high rises. It has also created a nice, pedestrian-friendly streetscape.

Yeah Austin is a good example. I certainly think something at least similar to what Austin has would be great. Austin seems to be one of those cities that has a 'feel' of a smaller city, or at least not one that is as big as it is. I haven't been but I've heard the same thing about San Antonio. I often hear people say that it just doesn't feel like a city that's as big as the population figures say.

[mcheiss]

You can keep the town's unique feel while developing it. I think Austin did a really good job of this.

Granted the comparison is tough because Fayetteville isn't the state capital and lacks a big corporate presence and is much smaller.

Austin has a height restriction because of the state Capitol and this has led to more mid-rise buildings instead of a few high rises. It has also created a nice, pedestrian-friendly streetscape.

Do you know what the Heigh Restriction is in Austin?

I know they've built a few 35 floor towers like the Frost Bank Tower, but that they are planning a few 40's a well.

[masons_dad1]

I used Legacy Town Center as an example of not being a downtown, even though that's what Karran Inc wants to create.

You did the comparison of the entire Pinnacle Hills area to Legacy Town Center. I just wanted to point out that LTC is just a small part of the entire Legacy development. Its a bit like saying Pinnacle Hills and pointing out one little strip of the retail.

The EDS complex, which I can see out my office window, is massive. The entire Legacy development is massive. Several large corporate HQs here. Its been going for several years, but still hasn't reached buildout as you can see on the map. There are a few more office towers going up today, and LTC has an expansion area under construction right now. Legacy uses a lot more "open space" in the plan and everything is spread out. I think Pinnacle Hills will be more compact overall. Its the same concept, and I wouldn't be surprised if the Pinnacle guys took some inspiration from Perot.

I didn't realize the full scope of the Legacy development. The map is only part of it. The EDS compound and JC Penney Headquarters alone encompass as much acreage as all 750 acres of Pinnacle Hills. It is a quite impressive mega-business park.

[strmchsr77]

The Divinity Building on Dickson street has been pulled off of the Planning Commission's next meeting according to the Times this morning. It looks like they are going to make a few more changes to it, and then resubmit probably next month or so.

Here is the article: Divinity Building Pulled...for now

[Mith242]

Yeah I had almost gotten the impression they wanted to see what problems the city had with it and then make changes. But I guess there's been so much public outcry they decided to go ahead and make changes now. I think they were hoping they could get this through before they city officially put in it's building height restrictions. But I think it became pretty apparent it wasn't going to happen anytime soon. Unfortunately they'll probably still have a hard time no matter how great they make the building. Although you almost got the impression that some city officials didn't have any problems with the look of the building just the height. I wonder if it's possible for them to buy some of the nearby real estate to give them more room to spread it out and lower the height that many people seem to be having problems with.

[CellarDoor135]

The Divinity Building on Dickson street has been pulled off of the Planning Commission's next meeting according to the Times this morning. It looks like they are going to make a few more changes to it, and then resubmit probably next month or so.

Here is the article: Divinity Building Pulled...for now

They said it should be ready by next planning meeting. Which is two weeks from Monday.

[strmchsr77]

Yeah I had almost gotten the impression they wanted to see what problems the city had with it and then make changes. But I guess there's been so much public outcry they decided to go ahead and make changes now. I think they were hoping they could get this through before they city officially put in it's building height restrictions. But I think it became pretty apparent it wasn't going to happen anytime soon. Unfortunately they'll probably still have a hard time no matter how great they make the building. Although you almost got the impression that some city officials didn't have any problems with the look of the building just the height. I wonder if it's possible for them to buy some of the nearby real estate to give them more room to spread it out and lower the height that many people seem to be having problems with.

That is kind of what I thought. They seem to be just testing the waters. Make it as large as possible to see what they can get away with, then scale back some. I hope they don't end up reducing the height too much or there will not be much of a building. That is not that big of a lot as far as I know.

Also, thanks for the info CellarDoor.

[Mith242]

That is kind of what I thought. They seem to be just testing the waters. Make it as large as possible to see what they can get away with, then scale back some. I hope they don't end up reducing the height too much or there will not be much of a building. That is not that big of a lot as far as I know.

Also, thanks for the info CellarDoor.

I don't know if they could scale it back too much or else the development probably wouldn't be too economically feasible. Unless they purposely made it bigger than they needed then scale it back to make it seem like they compromised. But I don't know if anyone would actually try anything like that.

[strmchsr77]

I don't know if they could scale it back too much or else the development probably wouldn't be too economically feasible. Unless they purposely made it bigger than they needed then scale it back to make it seem like they compromised. But I don't know if anyone would actually try anything like that.

I guess we can just wait and see what they bring back in 2 weeks. Maybe they will send you an update closer to that time Mith. If you are still in contact with them.

[Mith242]

I guess we can just wait and see what they bring back in 2 weeks. Maybe they will send you an update closer to that time Mith. If you are still in contact with them.

I've sent them an e-mail a few days ago but haven't heard anything back yet. Although he said he received around 100 e-mails a day and not to be surprised if it sometimes takes him a few days to respond. If I don't hear anything in a few more days I'll send another one. I have some more pics of the area where they are wanting to put the development in. I'll post them shortly.

[Mith242]

Here's some pics of the land that the Barber group has bought and wants to put the Divinity Building. They're already torn down the old Something Urban store that was near the ATM. The I just kept scanning over to the right over to the old Pettus Law Firm building that's still up. The last pic is just a different angle of some of the land.

[strmchsr77]

It seems to have a good amount of frontage on Dickson, but it does not look deep. Unless they have purchased the houses seen in the first couple of pictures.

[mcheiss]

I agree.

Doesn't seem like a whole bunch of multi story buildings are near as well, which could result in a density problem.

[Mith242]

As far as I know I don't think it's very deep. I believe that's why they are having to build up as much as they were wanting to. There are a couple of old homes over on Block St just south of the development. I'd hate to see them get torn down but I do think development will eventually happen on Block St. It's a nice location between Dickson and the Square. I'd like it if they were able to save the houses by moving them to another location.

[strmchsr77]

As far as I know I don't think it's very deep. I believe that's why they are having to build up as much as they were wanting to. There are a couple of old homes over on Block St just south of the development. I'd hate to see them get torn down but I do think development will eventually happen on Block St. It's a nice location between Dickson and the Square. I'd like it if they were able to save the houses by moving them to another location.

One think great about this development that I have not thought of until just now, was that it should promote development from Dickson southward towards the square. It would be great to have another corridor of restaurants and mixed use that connects these two areas. Adding lights and whatever else to make it safe for anyone to go back and forth. This could really do something to expand the entertainment district and connectability.