CANCELED: Divinity Development

[DickSonstreetDFW]

Here's a color rendering that I promised earlier. Of course those of you that have access to the Northwest Arkansas Times have probably already seen this.

Yes, the color rendering did change my opinion.

That thing is hideously ugly, IMHO.

I can't believe that's the best Barber and HKS could come up with....FOR DICKSON!

That would stick out, even in Dallas.

They're thinking Miami Beach.

Ain't gonna happen.

[Mith242]

Yeah it is an odd color for them to pick out. Well I guess the good news is that I don't see the city approving it without some changes so let's hope they make some changes that will improve it.

[Mith242]

Since most of their website is so far focused on the Legacy Building I e-mailed a message to them about the Divinity Building with a little constructive criticism. I'm curious to see if I get a response back. I even mentioned I had posted a rendering of it on a NWA forum and many people weren't enthused about it compared to their other developments in the area.

[masons_dad1]

Yeah it is an odd color for them to pick out. Well I guess the good news is that I don't see the city approving it without some changes so let's hope they make some changes that will improve it.

I told y'all color has a lot to do with approving a building!

[DickSonstreetDFW]

I told y'all color has a lot to do with approving a building!

Yeah, it does. Wow. YELLOW.

I can't think of a single building anywhere here in Dallas that is bright yellow.

We have some wild buildings here, and some that are peculiar but stunning, but nothing bright fricking yellow.

Maybe this is part of a strategy.

1) Present the ugliest rendering possible.

2) Get denied.

3) Make improvements to the design, keep the same height.

4) PC approves with height variance because "at least its not YELLOW".

[itk]

Yeah, it does. Wow. YELLOW.

I can't think of a single building anywhere here in Dallas that is bright yellow.

We have some wild buildings here, and some that are peculiar but stunning, but nothing bright fricking yellow.

Maybe this is part of a strategy.

1) Present the ugliest rendering possible.

2) Get denied.

3) Make improvements to the design, keep the same height.

4) PC approves with height variance because "at least its not YELLOW".

Good strategy! If that works I'll have to keep that one in mind...

Yeah, with yellow it will definitely stick out like a sore thumb

[Mith242]

Yeah I hadn't thought of that strategy. I also wonder if it's a poor color representation of the original rendering. I have no idea where the Northwest Arkansas Times got their copy of the rendering. I wonder if this is also just a very early version in the rendering phase and they made it a bright color to stand out and haven't considered what building material that yellow is going to represent. I guess I'm just racking my brain here trying to figure out the whole bright yellow thing.

[skirby]

Yeah I hadn't thought of that strategy. I also wonder if it's a poor color representation of the original rendering. I have no idea where the Northwest Arkansas Times got their copy of the rendering. I wonder if this is also just a very early version in the rendering phase and they made it a bright color to stand out and haven't considered what building material that yellow is going to represent. I guess I'm just racking my brain here trying to figure out the whole bright yellow thing.

I noticed the renderings were from HKS. This is the same firm that designed the new ballpark in North Little Rock. As far as the yellow color in the rendering I would worry about it. Some of the first renderings for the Acxiom Building showed it with totally different color of glass. It was more of a brown tone and I didn't think much of it.

[mcheiss]

I don't care what anyone says, I LOVE this building. It will add building diversity to Downtown Fayetteville. I admit, I would have gone for something a bit different on Dixon, but it looks amazing to me. This one snuck up on me. Fayetteville is going downtown crazy. There's the Legacy Building 6 Floors, Bank of America Building 4-5 floors, Underwood Plaza 8 Floors, Mountain Inn Project 18 Floors.

Add any more if you can think of any.

[Mith242]

I don't care what anyone says, I LOVE this building. It will add building diversity to Downtown Fayetteville. I admit, I would have gone for something a bit different on Dixon, but it looks amazing to me. This one snuck up on me. Fayetteville is going downtown crazy. There's the Legacy Building 6 Floors, Bank of America Building 4-5 floors, Underwood Plaza 8 Floors, Mountain Inn Project 18 Floors.

Add any more if you can think of any.

I think it's interesting, although I don't care for the color, I guess I just don't think it will fit well on Dickson. Granted some places like Bordino's have gone for a more comtemporary look. But I think the modern look and it's size is just a bit much for that location. I think it would fit better in another area of Fayetteville the way it is designed. As far as other projects there's the Spring Street Lofts which is also not far off Dickson, but I think it's only going to be 3-4 stories.

[DickSonstreetDFW]

I think it's interesting, although I don't care for the color, I guess I just don't think it will fit well on Dickson. Granted some places like Bordino's have gone for a more comtemporary look. But I think the modern look and it's size is just a bit much for that location. I think it would fit better in another area of Fayetteville the way it is designed. As far as other projects there's the Spring Street Lofts which is also not far off Dickson, but I think it's only going to be 3-4 stories.

I have to agree with you.

While I don't like this building, I wouldn't dislike it as much if it were a smaller, less-dominant building.

Its impact will be big.

[itk]

Maybe if it went somewhere in downtown proper, it could fit in. I guess it's not so bad looking per se, so with that I sorta agree with mchiess... but still, right there it just seems out of place.

[Mith242]

I didn't get around to posting this yesterday but the Arkansas Democrat Gazette didn't have a lot of good things to say about this development. The editorial made it sound like the Barber Group was trying to trick the city into letting them develop it. There was also an editorial cartoon showing a future 'Dickson' St with lots of tall buildings with some people saying they were bored and that they should go to Rogers instead. I'm not sure if I totally agree with all of the Barber group's arguements but it does seem like Fayetteville is coming up to an important 'fork in the road'. The Barber Group argues that Fayetteville will eventually become a Eureka Springs if they follow through with the way they are treating developments now. I don't think I'd go that far, but it does seem like we are reaching a point in deciding what kind of city we will be. I'm not saying I think we need to start putting in 50 story buildings or anything but I personally think we should build up more than out. If done properly I don't see having more midrises in the city as being such a bad thing. I guess the bad thing is if you really put a limit on heights of developments then you make some developments unfeasible because costs will be too high to put in a small 4-5 story building in certain areas of the city. I do think there should be limits but I'm just worried that the city is going to have them set too low and simply push development out to the city edges and promote more sprawl in the future.

[itk]

I didn't get around to posting this yesterday but the Arkansas Democrat Gazette didn't have a lot of good things to say about this development. The editorial made it sound like the Barber Group was trying to trick the city into letting them develop it. There was also an editorial cartoon showing a future 'Dickson' St with lots of tall buildings with some people saying they were bored and that they should go to Rogers instead. I'm not sure if I totally agree with all of the Barber group's arguements but it does seem like Fayetteville is coming up to an important 'fork in the road'. The Barber Group argues that Fayetteville will eventually become a Eureka Springs if they follow through with the way they are treating developments now. I don't think I'd go that far, but it does seem like we are reaching a point in deciding what kind of city we will be. I'm not saying I think we need to start putting in 50 story buildings or anything but I personally think we should build up more than out. If done properly I don't see having more midrises in the city as being such a bad thing. I guess the bad thing is if you really put a limit on heights of developments then you make some developments unfeasible because costs will be too high to put in a small 4-5 story building in certain areas of the city. I do think there should be limits but I'm just worried that the city is going to have them set too low and simply push development out to the city edges and promote more sprawl in the future.

I think I read that same editorial on Sunday. From what I have read about the project in the media, I think I can agree a little with the op ed assessment. That is, Barber is deflecting criticism of its design by suggesting that if you are opposed to it, then you are anti-hi-rise or anti-business, and that Fayetteville will lose out on tax money and could turn out like Eureka in that it will be cute and quaint, but that's all (I'm paraphrasing the op ed). It's not as if Barber is trying to "trick" the City, but just play the "anti-business" card, or a variation thereof to try and take the high ground.

I dunno: I think that if the design were a bit more compromising, then more people could go along with the height. I would.

[DickSonstreetDFW]

I didn't get around to posting this yesterday but the Arkansas Democrat Gazette didn't have a lot of good things to say about this development. The editorial made it sound like the Barber Group was trying to trick the city into letting them develop it. There was also an editorial cartoon showing a future 'Dickson' St with lots of tall buildings with some people saying they were bored and that they should go to Rogers instead. I'm not sure if I totally agree with all of the Barber group's arguements but it does seem like Fayetteville is coming up to an important 'fork in the road'. The Barber Group argues that Fayetteville will eventually become a Eureka Springs if they follow through with the way they are treating developments now. I don't think I'd go that far, but it does seem like we are reaching a point in deciding what kind of city we will be. I'm not saying I think we need to start putting in 50 story buildings or anything but I personally think we should build up more than out. If done properly I don't see having more midrises in the city as being such a bad thing. I guess the bad thing is if you really put a limit on heights of developments then you make some developments unfeasible because costs will be too high to put in a small 4-5 story building in certain areas of the city. I do think there should be limits but I'm just worried that the city is going to have them set too low and simply push development out to the city edges and promote more sprawl in the future.

I don't think Fayetteville is in any danger of reverting to a Eureka Springs. If more of its neighborhoods looked more like Eureka Springs, I think that would be a good thing.

Barber Group put together this prime parcel at a huge cost, and now their plans are in jeopardy. I have no idea how they are financing this amount of development. Actually, I do have an idea, but that is neither here nor there.

The fact that the property closed a relatively short time ago and as some post on here, site prep has already begun tells me that they are trying to fast track this project. Well, thats all fine and well, but anyone who has a clue about Fayetteville city politics has to know that a development of this size was going to create controversy. I find it odd that they seem surprised.

These type of projects often require a long time to get approval, even in cities (like Dallas) where mid and high-rise development is commonplace. There is generally a lengthy public comment period if there is a variance or issues such as "view shed" to be considered.

It seems that Barber Group had their plans set in stone prior to the purchase and may have the cart before the horse on this one.

It may not be cost effective to build a "quality" mid rise building, on Dickson Street right now. When I say "quality", I am not referring to the use. I am referring to building materials, architectural features, etc.

Despite the fact that this building is designed by a highly regarded firm, to me it looks cheap and bland (aside from the bright color scheme). I'm very surprised. In contrast, I really like the buildings they are working on that were designed by the local guys. With the constant marketing drops in the newspapers by Barber Group, I'm betting getting HKS involved has a lot to do with prestige and cache. The Barber Group are the ones who compared one of their upcoming project to The W hotel, a few of which, incidentally, HKS has designed.

A project of this magnitude should be carefully scrutinized because of its impact. Once we get it, we're stuck with it. A design with more consideration given to its context, I would not oppose. If this design is the best Barber can do for such a vital location, then I'd just as soon they not block the views of Mt. Sequoyah from Dickson Street. Thats my own personal cost/benefit analysis.

Barber group's "anti-business" arguement is the same one Cracker Barrell used. Not to dismiss their perspective, but they HAD to see this coming. Its Fayetteville. It seems like they expected Fayetteville's planners to fall all over themselves just to snag a mid-rise condo/hotel on Dickson. That can only be interpreted as arrogance or delusion. Given what I interpret as The Barber Group's penchant for pretense and obvious desire to create a high-profile for themselves leads me to the conclusion that it is the former. (see website)

If they don't get their way, I doubt we'll see a mad dash of condo builders north to Chickendale.

There is middle ground between what Barber Group wants and what the city wants to achieve with its planning review process. One of the ways to get what you want out of a negotiation is to ask for more than you want, and back pedal to your original desired position. I'm hoping this is where Barber Group is coming from.

I really think a more thoughtful design would work wonders with the planning commision.

[masons_dad1]

These type of projects often require a long time to get approval, even in cities (like Dallas) where mid and high-rise development is commonplace. There is generally a lengthy public comment period if there is a variance or issues such as "view shed" to be considered.

Dallas has one of the most modern and vibrant downtown skylines in the US. The downtown Dallas nightscape always blows me away with Reunion Tower pulsating to the rhythm of dance music... which I believe is broadcast from Reunion Tower itself. IMO, that is Dallas. That's it's personality and is how I will always remember Dallas.

What is Fayetteville's personality? How will Fayetteville be remembered?

[Mith242]

But that's the thing Fayetteville doesn't want to be the next Dallas or anything close to that. I do have to say that Fayetteville must be doing something right or they wouldn't get listed so high as a 'livable' city. I do agree with you DickSonstreetDFW about the way the Barber Group is acting about this. I am surprised they acted like the city wouldn't have any problems with this development. I wonder if they involved HKS just to have a big design team and to try to 'wow' everyone into just approving it.

[masons_dad1]

But that's the thing Fayetteville doesn't want to be the next Dallas or anything close to that. I do have to say that Fayetteville must be doing something right or they wouldn't get listed so high as a 'livable' city. I do agree with you DickSonstreetDFW about the way the Barber Group is acting about this. I am surprised they acted like the city wouldn't have any problems with this development. I wonder if they involved HKS just to have a big design team and to try to 'wow' everyone into just approving it.

And that's my whole point. Dallas has an identity, Fayetteville is still trying to find one. If Fayetteville's identity is that of a small city with a small town atmosphere then we don't need to worry about highrises blocking Fayetteville's views of the hills and the developers will move these projects to Springdale, Rogers and Bentonville. Rogers is creating an urban, cosmopolitan identity and I'm sure they would gladly allow these kinds of projects. Fayetteville will definitely retain it's small town charm when the rest of the metro starts growing upwards and more urban.

[Mith242]

And that's my whole point. Dallas has an identity, Fayetteville is still trying to find one. If Fayetteville's identity is that of a small city with a small town atmosphere then we don't need to worry about highrises blocking Fayetteville's views of the hills and the developers will move these projects to Springdale, Rogers and Bentonville. Rogers is creating an urban, cosmopolitan identity and I'm sure they would gladly allow these kinds of projects. Fayetteville will definitely retain it's small town charm when the rest of the metro starts growing upwards and more urban.

Yeah I do think there's a good chance that Rogers will be in some ways the more urban feeling area of the metro in the near future. A lot of people in Fayetteville don't want that, I think they want the identity that the city has now. I guess at least we will have the advantage of having some different types of cities in our metro. If you feel like something different you can just go to the other city.

[itk]

Yeah I do think there's a good chance that Rogers will be in some ways the more urban feeling area of the metro in the near future. A lot of people in Fayetteville don't want that, I think they want the identity that the city has now. I guess at least we will have the advantage of having some different types of cities in our metro. If you feel like something different you can just go to the other city.

I hadn't thought of it like that, but I think that's a good point. I bet it would be an advantage for our metro area having cities with different "identities". I know a lot, I mean a lot of people who are, for lack of a better term, "fayettevillenites" in that they moved to Fayetteville and Fayetteville alone (even if they work in Benton County) because they like it there, and wouldn't want to live anywhere else in NWA.

I know someone who recently moved from out of state to a job in Rogers (or Springdale, I forget)... they originally were going to move to somewhere like Rogers, but after visiting Fayetteville decided that Fayetteville was definitely their kind of place. But, I bet there are others who live in say Rogers because they want to (maybe because Pinnacle or Shadow Valley or some other gated community), or near Beaver Lake, etc., and commute to say Fayetteville.

[Mith242]

I hadn't thought of it like that, but I think that's a good point. I bet it would be an advantage for our metro area having cities with different "identities". I know a lot, I mean a lot of people who are, for lack of a better term, "fayettevillenites" in that they moved to Fayetteville and Fayetteville alone (even if they work in Benton County) because they like it there, and wouldn't want to live anywhere else in NWA.

I know someone who recently moved from out of state to a job in Rogers (or Springdale, I forget)... they originally were going to move to somewhere like Rogers, but after visiting Fayetteville decided that Fayetteville was definitely their kind of place. But, I bet there are others who live in say Rogers because they want to (maybe because Pinnacle or Shadow Valley or some other gated community), or near Beaver Lake, etc., and commute to say Fayetteville.

Just as there are people who prefer Fayetteville there will also be people who don't like Fayetteville's particular style. I think as time goes on Fayetteville may follow a particular path and it may not be the all around type city that some people are looking for. I think Rogers will develop in it's own way and be a different type of city than Fayetteville and I'm sure some people will like it better. But in a way I think that will be interesting, as I said before the different cities in the metro can have different identities and in a way make a more diverse metro.

[Mith242]

Okay this pic doesn't really have much to do with the Divinity development directly but I wanted to post it to show some other proposed Barber Development that have styles I think would have been accepted a bit more for Dickson St. The bottom right is a rendering for a proposed development in Rogers. Obviously they would have to trim it down, looks like this one is 20 stories. But it has a somewhat modern look to it but seems more subdued. The upper right pic is I believe for their Bellafonte development on Joyce, or at least one possible rendering for it. I also think that something closer to this style might have been more accepted by Fayetteville for Dickson St. Either way it might be a moot point because no matter what it looks like something tells me getting the city over the height issue will be a big problem for the Barber Group.

[Mith242]

Ah, I actually got a response back form the e-mail I had sent to the Barber Group about their Divinity Development. They even sent me a pic that the newspaper certainly didn't do justice to. Here's the pic and I'll post the e-mail too in a little bit.

[Mith242]

Hmmm, there's quite a bit of a border to that pic, I'll try posting a larger size for those of you with computers that can handle a larger pic so everyone can see some details a little better.

[Mith242]

Here's the e-mail I got back from the Barber Group. It has some more detailed info that some of you might find interesting.

Rod,

Thank you for your email concerning the Divinity Hotel. I apologize for the delay in responding. I may give you more information than you addressed in your email, but I would like to hit as many points as I can on the first attempt.

Regarding the color: I