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North Hills East

dmccall

By dmccall
in The NC Triangle

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Tayfromcarolina Hamlet

Tayfromcarolina

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I happen to work for a company that is doing a lot of worth with Kane and his efforts to bring the full fledged North Hills East to the table. I got a glimpse of some additional sketches and more in depth info. Regardless of the out come Home Depot looks to be a done deal. They don't have a real strong presence in that part of town and this is ideal for them. Secondly if the project is scaled back sadly it won't end up being much more than a glorified strip mall. But luckily I saw page after page of local citizen feedback and it was 99.9% for the full North Hills East Project. :)

And going off of the current North Hills I don't see why this project wouldnt be a slam dunk. I say and the public says build it, Parking Deck and all. ;) I'll see what other info I can dig up meanwhile.

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orulz City

orulz

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There are Home Depot's across the country in locations far more urban than that one. Charlotte is getting a Home Depot expo on the site of the former Midtown Square, and a full-sized Lowe's (with rooftop parking and surrounded by mixed-use) in South End, roughly a mile from downtown. It could work.

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ncwebguy Burg

ncwebguy

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A "normal" Home Depot (possibly with lumber yard) could easily fit in the northwest corner of NHE.

HD would provide a place to buy appliances, lighting, do-it-yourself home repair supplies, tools, etc. that no other store west of Capital and east of Glenwood provides other than Briggs Hardware on Atlantic.

Would that be enough to justify a $75 million parking deck tax credit? I don't know. Raleigh needs to decided where it wants to draw the line for TIFs and go from there.

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Jones_ City

Jones_

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A "normal" Home Depot (possibly with lumber yard) could easily fit in the northwest corner of NHE.

HD would provide a place to buy appliances, lighting, do-it-yourself home repair supplies, tools, etc. that no other store west of Capital and east of Glenwood provides other than Briggs Hardware on Atlantic.

Would that be enough to justify a $75 million parking deck tax credit? I don't know. Raleigh needs to decided where it wants to draw the line for TIFs and go from there.

Except for the Home Depot up near Six Forks/Lead Mine/Strickland :thumbsup:

And some math.....say the difference in property value is $500 million and its assessed at that value, and holding sales taxes generated equal...Raleigh property tax rate is .385 so annually an additional $1,925,000 dollars is generated. Using a handy amoritization calculator, I assumed the repayment of the bonds would be over 20 years at 5% having monthly payment of $494,966.80=Annual payment of $5,939,601.60.....no dice.....30 years at 4% is $358,061.47 times 12 = $4,296,737.64............it really does not come close until the value of the development approaches 1.5 Billion...could additional surrounding development be included in this calculation? Who knows, you can Fox News the numbers anyway you please...the cut and dry look at them does not seem to pan out....a real accountant is welcome to challenge me on these numbers :thumbsup:

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dwtnc Unincorporated Area

dwtnc

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Except for the Home Depot up near Six Forks/Lead Mine/Strickland :thumbsup:

And some math.....say the difference in property value is $500 million and its assessed at that value, and holding sales taxes generated equal...Raleigh property tax rate is .385 so annually an additional $1,925,000 dollars is generated. Using a handy amoritization calculator, I assumed the repayment of the bonds would be over 20 years at 5% having monthly payment of $494,966.80=Annual payment of $5,939,601.60.....no dice.....30 years at 4% is $358,061.47 times 12 = $4,296,737.64............it really does not come close until the value of the development approaches 1.5 Billion...could additional surrounding development be included in this calculation? Who knows, you can Fox News the numbers anyway you please...the cut and dry look at them does not seem to pan out....a real accountant is welcome to challenge me on these numbers :thumbsup:

It's even worse. You've run the calculations as if the bonds were standard, amortized mortgage obligations. They are interest only, thus you have to put money into a fund to retire the bonds or leave them for the next round of bonds to refi, creating a never ending cycle. In SC, where TIFF has been used for over a decade, the municipalities try to recover at least the principal in 7 years. No way here.

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ChiefJoJo Town

ChiefJoJo

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Here's the N&O article. BTW, the fact that the Planning Commission voted for it is almost meaningless--they vote for EVERYTHING!

BTW, I want to see urban development, but I don't think that site is appropriate for 25-30 story buildings, nor do I think TIFs should be used there unless there is a very compelling reason for the public good.

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DwnTwnRaleighGuy Hamlet

DwnTwnRaleighGuy

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Here's the N&O article. BTW, the fact that the Planning Commission voted for it is almost meaningless--they vote for EVERYTHING!

BTW, I want to see urban development, but I don't think that site is appropriate for 25-30 story buildings, nor do I think TIFs should be used there unless there is a very compelling reason for the public good.

Agreed! :)

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dmccall Burg

dmccall

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Kane got a 9-1 vote from the Planning commission to go ahead with NH Phase 2. Next step is the Very Conservative City Council on Sept. 19.

"Conservative". Is that really the right word? The funny thing is that the most liberal people on the City Council oppose using the government for funding a private project and the political conservatives think it's (the TIF) a great idea. How messed up is THAT?? :0

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dmccall Burg

dmccall

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The project was approved by the City Council with provisions for some plots along Six Forks Road being as tall as 365 feet! :shok:

Only Crowder voted against it saying that we don't have enough transit and comp planning in place to allow that kind of height and density at this point. Meeker said that that is too tall, but trusts the developer to use this flexibility to do a lot of good. Russ Stephenson, Mr. "Coker is too tall", never objected. Wow.

This was only approval of the plan, and not financing the deck. That will come at a later date. It seems as though Meeker, Stephenson, and Crowder will vote against financing and Taliaferro, Isley, and Craven will vote for it. That leaves Kekas and West????

BTW, one of Kane's people said I am "way off" with what I've been saying about hotel issues at North Hills. He can't wait to correct me. I can't wait to be corrected!!!

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Transplant Hamlet

Transplant

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I for one will be glad when this new "tax incentive package" for the parking deck issue is behind us, one way or the other. I want Raleigh/Kane/other developers to move on and build or not build. I don't like this limbo status. :huh:

I agree.

Someone else made this suggestion earlier (maybe another forum), I wish Kane had pushed for an alternative that would have a LR route from NH to Crabtree and onto the Arena area. If the TIF in NHE could produce $75 mil, surely a TIF along most of the route could have built most of this. This would connection would connect some of the fastest growing area, and allow for Truely urban development along Edwards Mill Rd. (If the city doesn't act quick, we'll get more crappy development patterns in West Raleigh). This could also extend from NHE to Highwoods station.

This would be part off my longterm plan. (yes yes, this probably will never be built, but this is my attempt at a plan, since the TTA hasn't produced one)

http://www.urbanplanet.org/forums/index.ph...ost&id=1622

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ChiefJoJo Town

ChiefJoJo

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N&O article.

Only Crowder voted against it saying that we don't have enough transit and comp planning in place to allow that kind of height and density at this point.

He's right. Those people think they know what's coming, but just wait--esp if the TIF is approved. FWIW, I grew up a stone's throw from NH East.

This is hilarious (from Kane's website):

What kind of impact will this development have on traffic in the area?

The reality of a property like North Hills is that traffic doesn't become a major issue. Unlike a destination like Crabtree, for example, the people who go to North Hills here go for a mix of reasons beyond shopping, so traffic flows fairly evenly throughout the day. For example, once home, the residents will leave their cars in their "rightful" place and will walk. Office tenants and retailers come early in the morning, park all day, and leave at 6:00 pm, so they aren't contributing to traffic issues, and the spaces they leave are used by diners and people who are at North Hills for a movie or an ice cream cone.

Third party traffic studies required by the City have shown that in addition to the immediate access to the Beltline, Six Forks Road, Lassiter Mill Road and Old Wake Forest Road will all fare well during an expansion such as that we propose.

You can't replace the bare minimum of development (suburban aptmts and 1 story ranch homes) with skyscrapers, hotels, big-box retail, condos and no plan for transit and get "traffic doesn't become a major issue." It worked at North Hills (West) because it was already a mall before with infrastructure essentially in place and you don't see any high rises over there. I like the concepts, but if Kane develops anywhere close to the density he's allowed, Six Forks/440/Camelot Dr/St Alban Dr will be f--ked.

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romec Whistle-Stop

romec

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I like the concept, but maybe 10-15 years down the road. You can have models guess that a true mixed use center wont generate too much traffic, but in reality that much density is going to completely overwhelm the infrastructure. We need a better mass transit system in place to handle this.

I understand Kane's position as a developer (maxing out value and return on his holdings) but something this big will compete with downtown. Also I wish that North Hills had better connectivity to downtown. One thing is certain, if this happens there is no question about where or if there is a midtown Raleigh.

(I would love to see a rail line running from Downtown -> Highwoods then following the beltline to North Hills, Crabtree and then on to the arena and fairgrounds. Crabtree, North Hills and Downtown are all growing explosively and would probably generate awesome ridership numbers.)

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DwnTwnRaleighGuy Hamlet

DwnTwnRaleighGuy

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I like the concept, but maybe 10-15 years down the road. You can have models guess that a true mixed use center wont generate too much traffic, but in reality that much density is going to completely overwhelm the infrastructure. We need a better mass transit system in place to handle this.

I understand Kane's position as a developer (maxing out value and return on his holdings) but something this big will compete with downtown. Also I wish that North Hills had better connectivity to downtown. One thing is certain, if this happens there is no question about where or if there is a midtown Raleigh.

(I would love to see a rail line running from Downtown -> Highwoods then following the beltline to North Hills, Crabtree and then on to the arena and fairgrounds. Crabtree, North Hills and Downtown are all growing explosively and would probably generate awesome ridership numbers.)

This would be a great time for Raleigh to step up to the plat and propose a short transit line from downtown to NH's then Crabtree and back? :thumbsup:

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dmccall Burg

dmccall

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This would be a great time for Raleigh to step up to the plat and propose a short transit line from downtown to NH's then Crabtree and back? :thumbsup:

I realize this probably ought to be in the transit topic, but I think that TTA needs to quickly repropose a comprehensive system. I mean something on the order of $1B-$1.5B. Show residents that there is a passionate desire to get a train line near their house and near their job.

Teach people how they are spending $7,000-$8,000 per year per car on just ownership+op costs plus whatever misc. tax money per household is spent on road maintenance. Don't denegrate the car or people's love for them, but remind people that they are spending $22 per day just to own the darned thing.

People would be much more supportive of a system that they can envision actually riding. Of course, include a Highwoods to Fairgrounds line that includes NH, Crabtree, Rex, RBC/stadium. And for goodness sakes, promise that the airport will be involved in the system.

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JTsaysToYou Whistle-Stop

JTsaysToYou

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Okay guys, I'm new to Urban Planet.

But as a teenager, I am at North Hills EVERY friday night (not an exaggeration). Now I know that it might seem foolish to build NH East w/out a solid transportation system in place, but I say go for it, I WANT NEW STORES!!!!!! And more stuff to do. NH is fun, but double the shops (and not the stupid boutiques) would make it a LOT more fun.

Sure NH is not downtown, but it's still a major asset to Raleigh. Not to mention, most teenagers parents do not feel comfortable leaving them downtown.

Besides, I like the idea of having almost 3 downtowns all linked together. Imagine in the future when you can go downtown, and spend a whole day riding trains and going from downtown to midtowns (If NH east is built it wil definitly qualify as another midtown0- just minus soleil) Ahhhh, futurethink

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ChiefJoJo Town

ChiefJoJo

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I know this project has been "dormant" until the TIF issue is dealt with, but I was surfing, and noticed the Kane website has attempted to make it's case for TIFs at North Hills East. It's an interesting read, and I'm sure the TIF guidance the City Manger is developing will make a great debate...

On a somewhat related note, I''m amazed the Renaissance Hotel at North Hills hasn't broken ground yet. :huh:

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