Tucson Downtown/Rio Nuevo Thread

[DeanofTucson]

Jim Counts of Nimbus mysteriously decided to have knee surgery the day of the public meeting in front of the Mayor and Council's Downtown/Rio Nuevo subcommittee, to repair damage from a car accident sustained two months prior. Now he's trashing his partners, as well as the City, neighbors, and the Arizona Daily Star.

The new Gentle Ben's is at the southeast corner of 16th Street and Toole/Euclid, in a building that looks like several quanset huts melted together. It really is a difficult area to access.

I think what the city's housing director is frustrated with is that after four years of talking about this, they can't afford to build the new public housing building near the MLK apartments, even with the federal grant.

[colin]

Speaking of MLK: Last three face moving from MLK

The story takes no sides on the issue, just remarks that only two are left in the building. It will be a bit of a shame to lose it. It's certainly not the prettiest building in Tucson, but it had character.

I agree with one of the comment posters though: the whole thing smells like gentrification. I mentioned before that, even if new public housing gets built at the site, the best plan that's been offered still cuts the numbers quite a bit, thus keeping most of the old residents out of Downtown.

Also this this morning: New plans for Downtown MLK site met with ire

The article discusses the problems they've faced with the MLK/Depot Plaza project.

What's going to happen is that either:

- the building will stand vacant for at least a year while the developers and the City mull over the plans

- the building will be demolished and we'll have a long-term vacant lot at the site, while the developers and the City mull over the plans

- something regrettable will be put up

I think the first choice will happen, personally.

Edited June 20, 2006 by colin

[DeanofTucson]

Speaking of MLK: Last three face moving from MLK

The story takes no sides on the issue, just remarks that only two are left in the building. It will be a bit of a shame to lose it. It's certainly not the prettiest building in Tucson, but it had character.

I agree with one of the comment posters though: the whole thing smells like gentrification. I mentioned before that, even if new public housing gets built at the site, the best plan that's been offered still cuts the numbers quite a bit, thus keeping most of the old residents out of Downtown.

Also this this morning: New plans for Downtown MLK site met with ire

The article discusses the problems they've faced with the MLK/Depot Plaza project.

What's going to happen is that either:

- the building will stand vacant for at least a year while the developers and the City mull over the plans

- the building will be demolished and we'll have a long-term vacant lot at the site, while the developers and the City mull over the plans

- something regrettable will be put up

I think the first choice will happen, personally.

[DeanofTucson]

Not that I'm trying to discourage use of this urban planet blog regarding downtown Tucson, but I noticed that there is a new "Forum" page on the Tucson Downtown Alliance website, at www.downtowntucson.org.

/alliance/forum

That might be a place to find others interested in Downtown to visit with, and broaden the circle of dialogue.

[DeanofTucson]

I hear there will be a vote tonight on the TIF extension bill at the state senate. Keep your fingers crossed. Getting this money to build well-designed structured parking will do more to promote high-rise housing in the Downtown area than anything. (along with the positive impact of the streetcar)

Not that I'm trying to discourage use of this urban planet blog regarding downtown Tucson, but I noticed that there is a new "Forum" page on the Tucson Downtown Alliance website, at www.downtowntucson.org.

/alliance/forum

That might be a place to find others interested in Downtown to visit with, and broaden the circle of dialogue.

[MJLO]

hehe dean, you can advertise other forums all you want, as long as you keep chit chat going on here.

[colin]

The extension went through in the Senate, although not for as long as the City had wanted.

Senate sends extra $600M Downtown

A lot of the hardline Republicans, especially those from the Valley, are still very upset about the extension, insisting that the TIF itself is "illegal." At least it got through, so the City can rest easy on that subject that their funding source is secure for the time being.

[DeanofTucson]

For all the complaining of the Senate Republicans about the TIF gobbling up the sales tax money generated at Park Place and El Con "Mall" (Target/Home Depot/Doughnut Center), they ended up not forcing the City to give up the money generated along Broadway. They just shortened the term, which proves that it was all about the total diversion of money. The malls were just a distraction from their real issue.

The extension went through in the Senate, although not for as long as the City had wanted.

Senate sends extra $600M Downtown

A lot of the hardline Republicans, especially those from the Valley, are still very upset about the extension, insisting that the TIF itself is "illegal." At least it got through, so the City can rest easy on that subject that their funding source is secure for the time being.

[colin]

The City Council meeting on Presidio Terrace is this Tuesday, I believe at 5:30pm. There's no telling when it will come up on the agenda.

This represents the last hurdle the project has to jump before beginning construction.

Also, this was in Saturday's Daily Star:

Rio Nuevo 'Depot Plaza' gone

Now that Rio Nuevo has its money, the private/market-rate housing has been removed from the design. It had shrunk to almost nothing, but the building site is now planned to be just an open area.

I see it as mainly a negative thing:

1. This means that the prospect of using private funds for the project has been all but wiped out

2. The integrated (market-rate and subsidized) housing plan is gone, and it will now be solely public housing, as it is now.

[MJLO]

why has it had to go thru so many hurdles?

[colin]

why has it had to go thru so many hurdles?

Height restrictions. What else?

The developer (Peggy Noonan) and architect (Bob Vint) worked with my neighborhood for almost two years to finalize an acceptable design that eventually resulted in the stepped terracing, and probably saved the project. They then had to get an exemption from the Zoning Examiner due to the height conflicting with the zoning of the lot.

There's been opposition the whole way, including a member of the El Presidio Neighborhood Association board, but it's definitely waned as the developer worked with the neighbors and the project has gotten more desireable.

[colin]

I wanted to mention this story:

My neighbor from across the hall slipped a note under my door saying that she was having a get-together to prepare for the city council meeting regarding Presidio Terrace tomorrow.

I went because she's a nice lady, and I enjoy talking to her, however we had never discussed the project.

I arrived to find the foremost opponent of the project from the neighborhood association sitting in the room smiling at me. I had a brief discussion with some of the people regarding the project, refuting their arguments (one woman said that they should have the traditional Spanish style with public living spaces inside the building instead of outdoor patios, and I was like "But, the patio overlooking the mountains is the selling point. No one wants to pay $200k to look at their neighbors."), and decided that it would be best if I left.

As I had said, the main argument seems to be the height, which isn't really grounded (no pun intended) as this site literally borders Downtown, and is next door to both a five-story and nine-story building.

[MJLO]

holy cow dude, that's akward as hell. Do you know how it ended?

[colin]

Downtown project 'too damn tall'

I'm a little disappointed in the way this article was written. I guess that the critics are usually the more interesting to talk to, but they only have one quote from a proponent, and in the very last sentence.

BTW, Tom Pashos is the one who I had previously referred to as "the foremost opponent of the project from the neighborhood association sitting in the room smiling at me". I had no idea that he had been interviewed by the Star. Maybe they were there last night? Hmm...

Matt, I was beat down and shoved into a garbage can. Then they beat that garbage can with bats until I renounced my position.

No...I'm friends with her, and this is a pretty trivial issue to get really upset about. We're all on the same level politically for the most part, so there's little else to argue with them about. I left pretty quickly though, because I didn't see it as the time for an argumentative discussion.

[MJLO]

Damn dude! you sound like you need a hug. I can't tell if this is just your standard NIMBYism or not. If people make it that hard to develope things in Tucson, Nobody'll want to build there.

[colin]

Ordinance for the Presidio Terrace project passed unanimously!

Lots of El Presidio people showed up, as well as Steve Farley, who's well-known around town for being pro-sensible development and transportation.

So, Downtown Tucson may see bulldozers within the next few months.

[DeanofTucson]

Was that Judy Dare that invited you to the meeting with Pashos? I think that she supported the project other than the height and wasn't that militant about it. She wrote a letter saying it would obliterate a very narrow view corridor--like, "we can't build a taller building there because there is one little square inch of Main Avenue where you can look at just the right angle and see Tumamoc Hill". Well, for every view that gets blocked by development, several more open up.

I had a speaker's card turned in, but the 60-minute time limit on the public hearing expired before I got called. There were definitely more supporters than opponents there.

If you read the on-line comments on StarNet that follow those articles, you do get some real melonheads coming out of the woodwork talking about "developer giveaways" and saying things like "tall buildings are okay for big cities that have already been screwed up, but not for here in beautiful Tucson where everything is perfect". It's embarrassing living here when you read stuff like that.

I think that Nina Trasoff wants to resolve the Nimbus situation next. It's about time. That embarrassment has gone on long enough. I'd say there's a 99% chance that the City will issue a Request for Proposals and let Nimbus and everyone else re-bid on it. Counts is such a glutton for punishment (self-inflicted in his case) that he will probably put in another proposal.

And now that the TIF has passed, it's time to resolve the question of the science center bridge. 99% chance that nothing of the scale and cost that the U of A has proposed will get funded and built.

[colin]

First things first for Rio Nuevo

The article doesn't really provide any new information and sounds like a PR piece to attempt to garner some momentum for it.

What's interesting is that they allude to how the city is going to "move on" the Clark Street underpass, however it's mentioned that this is part of the I-10 widening, which hasn't even gone up for bidding yet. ADOT's site on the I-10 widening also mentions it as part of the project, and states that it will take at least two years to "move the bridge 100 feet to the north".

[colin]

It was Judy. I didn't know she had written a letter.

She wasn't overly militant about it, but she was one of the leaders of the opposition.

I also get sick of people being so vehemently and unfoundedly anti-height. I'm empathetic toward the argument, but you can't have a flat Downtown, it just doesn't make sense.

[MJLO]

They kind of have that arguement going on about downtown Grand Rapids right now, The tallest building being built there right now is only 400'. I can't speak for Tucson, but Grand Rapids have alot of activity going on in it's downtown, it has alot of Iconic structures that are not more than 70' high, like the Art Museums, the convention center, and performance arts hall. So the Arguement can be made, because the city is so full of life at street level. Is it the same in Tucson?

[DeanofTucson]

Grand Rapids has a smaller population than Tucson, but apparently the downtown buildings go higher there. Tucson's tallest building is a little less than 300 feet, and the zoning prohibits anything taller than 300 feet.

I actually grew up in Holland, and am going there this weekend.

Anyway, I thought the article about First Things First for Rio Nuevo was pretty accurate in terms of the decisions that have to be made now that they have the extra money. They have to resolve this business about the science center rainbow bridge and the arena, because they could potentially eat up so much of the TIF money, and they carve out big footprints too. The sooner we decide not to build that rainbow bridge, the sooner we can get real on better ways to spend the money.

I heard Mike Hein speak a few weeks ago and it was just before the TIF extension passed, and he said, regardless of the outcome of the TIF extension, we need to make decisions about those two projects and not waste any more time on it.

Judy is a nice lady and I respect her. One of the other neighbors of El Presidio wrote a pretty bitter letter to the Star the other day about Presidio Terrace, and signed it something like "Advocate for Residential Development in Downtown".

Look for more crap to hit the fan next week on Depot Plaza. That shipwreck is about to be rescued before it takes the east end down with it. That project has been such a disaster that it deserves at least two trite cliches to describe it.

[convulso]

I also get sick of people being so vehemently and unfoundedly anti-height. I'm empathetic toward the argument, but you can't have a flat Downtown, it just doesn't make sense.

this is tucson's biggest drawback as an urban space. it's not that we need 900-foot skyscrapers; it's just that a city that extends 20 miles in all directions needs some density. one-and-two-story buildings all over town do not make city life livable. feels like a giant suburb. midrises and mixed uses with some height would go far toward shrinking the town's footprint (reducing its growth, anyway), reducing traffic congestion, and making mass transit options more viable. i'm still reading all the rio nuevo stuff and trying to get a read on how it has developed and where it's going. not sure it will even begin to address this kind of thing anyway. sounds a little myopic in scope to be such a long-range plan. at least it seems to have a margin of state-level support...sorta.

Edited July 7, 2006 by convulso

[colin]

So the Arguement can be made, because the city is so full of life at street level. Is it the same in Tucson?

Are you asking if Downtown Tucson has iconic structures, or is it full of life at street level?

To the former, I'd say yes and no. There are buildings that I think are iconic, but I've grown to love them. Places like the Rialto, Hotel Congress, the Fox Theatre, the old courthouse, the renovated depot, even Chicago Music Store. A lot of people may not think these iconic though.

To the latter, it would probably a no. There is activity from the office workers during the day, but nights are pretty dead and scary except for Thu - Sat when the clubs are up and jumping. There isn't much of a real tourist attraction to bring people Downtown, which is one of the goals behind the UA Rio Nuevo stuff including the Science Center.

[MJLO]

I need to get down there and experience the night life. I'm not real fond of night life in the suburbs up here.

[colin]

Oh, man! The best collective of bars anywhere, I think: Plush, Club Congress, Red Room, The Shelter, Kingfisher, Surly Wench, etc. Just really cool places.

I love the crowds here, too. At most bars, you can go and not worry about people bothering you, but if you want to talk, they'll chat with you. There are a couple of places where a girl can dance alone without being bothered, which I've never seen anywhere else.