Tucson Downtown/Rio Nuevo Thread

[colin]

I finally worked today on creating a GIS map of our orthophotos, so I made a skyscraper map of the Downtown area as well. The orthos are from Summer '05 given to us by the Pima Association of Governments (PAG). They're very detailed, too. I was actually able to determine that I was home at the time these were taken because my car was in the lot.

Turns out that I live in the 17th tallest building in town. Kinda sad though, as it's only 9 stories.

I'm going to do some more using the orthos, but my PSD started giving a bunch of errors that I've never seen before, and I've stopped for a while.

[colin]

Also wanted to post this. It's not my skyline shot. I just found it online and added the numbers.

Redondo Tower is just barely out of the shot, and The Pioneer is hidden by B of A. I'll try to post some pics of it soon enough.

Also, #6 and #7, Tucson House and 5454 East Broadway/Williams Tower respectfully, are both far out of the shot.

Hotel Arizona certainly doesn't look that tall from this picture, but below #3 gets kinda close and the building itself has its base in kind of a hole.

[MJLO]

Grand Rapids has a smaller population than Tucson, but apparently the downtown buildings go higher there. Tucson's tallest building is a little less than 300 feet, and the zoning prohibits anything taller than 300 feet.

I actually grew up in Holland, and am going there this weekend.

Dean, I didn't know you were from Michigan! Make that a thing we have in common then. Grand Rapids and Tucson have very similar metro areas, in terms of size. GR is only 44sq mi. Smaller than Tucson. But if you were to expand it to the same size and Tucson's borders they'd be very similar. I think a big difference in the downtowns are that when GR was growing cities were being built very dense. When Tucson started to get big, the style of city had changed.

Colin, thanks for the diagrams of downtown Tucson. I'm planning on making a pilgrimage this weekend maybe getting some photos. Downtown actually looks pretty cool. Is the community very active down there? Or does it have the uptown Phoenix feel, more of a suburban office park.

[colin]

Interesting article on some ill-fated public works projects near the UA campus in Tucson:

Red Tape Run Amok

I have to say that I had never heard of the Tyndall Avenue proposal. It's actually a great idea. Tyndall is pretty ugly right now, and very full of holes.

As for Sixth Street, I drive it every day. It doesn't need to be widened but reducing its number of lanes would be a huge mistake. I'd like to see bus pull-offs and any money going to Sixth instead directed to Speedway and its four-lane bottlenecks west of Main and east of Stone. That's the real east-west arterial in the area and should remain as such.

Civic projects in Pima County, and especially in the City of Tucson, are rarely taken up in an expedient manner, so I think that this is just pointing out some of the more ridiculous delays. I think that it's kind of pointless to blast the government for what amounts to the status quo for this area.

[colin]

An article in today's Star alludes to Nimbus no longer being a part of what has been referred to as the Nimbus Proposal.

The new Town West deal apparently no longer includes the subsidies from the City.

Condo deal may omit Nimbus

I doubt that Nimbus will be removed from the proposal. I would imagine that this is Counts' (Nimbus owner) way of pouting a little more about not getting his way.

[DeanofTucson]

The problem for Counts has always been that he doesn't have the money to do his project. His strategy was to get everybody excited about bringing Nimbus downtown to put political pressure on the City to give him the concessions he was looking for, and the only reason condos were part of his proposal was because he thought the profits from the condo sales would subsidize his brewery/restaurant.

The City and Town West really put the squeeze on him, but he asked for it.

I was impressed by Grand Rapids' Downtown, as I hadn't been there in 20 years. The Amway guys have really put their stamp on it. The City of Tucson has promised directional signage downtown for five years and the inability to get it done has become a joke among those who have followed it. So, I had to take pictures of the nice directional signs in DT GR.

Downtown Holland shows what can happen when one motivated and well-funded individual (the late Ed Prins) owns all of the buildings. Very nice, and with retail that people actually shop in, from Holland and from afar.

I also spent three days in Chicago--besides the obvious qualities of the Windy City, their new Millennium Park is amazing. They have an artistic water feature that is very cool, among other neat things.

We also went to St. Louis where my sister lives. The Gateway Arch is touted by the UA Science Center people as an iconic structure that has put St. Louis on the map. It is a wonderful attraction, but it actually does little for the downtown. It's cut off by I-70. I guess Alexis Faust would say that shows why the UA needs to build the rainbow bridge over I-10, to link the two sides. To that I say, that's what the modern streetcar will do.

Interestingly, the St. Louis Science Center spans U.S. 40. An enclosed pedestrian bridge links the new science center on the south side of the highway with the old science center built in a hillside at the edge of Forest Park. It is nothing like the scale of what has been proposed in Tucson, though. It's mainly functional and also serves as visible marketing for the center, but certainly not anything that people would travel to see, as the rainbow bridge is alleged to accomplish for $350 million or so.

A fascinating case of quirky but inspired urban development is St. Louis' City Museum, which is the brainchild of an unusual developer with a vision. Since it's very difficult to describe, just go to their website at citymuseum.org. We got an after-hours tour by one of the artists who works there.

MJLO, I totally agree with you as to why GR has a more dense downtown than Tucson.

Tucson was very small when downtowns were being developed in more populated cities with more height and density. After the Pioneer and the Valley Bank (now Chase) building were finished--Valley Bank just two weeks before the 1929 stock market crash, the Depression hit. Then after the war, Tucson's population growth took off, but the cheap land of the sprawling edge made sure that not only the housing but the retail and office were built in suburbia. And Tucson never had the major private employers or corporations that were traditionally based in Downtown, occupying a lot of office space and creating demand for large buildings.

[colin]

I guess Alexis Faust would say that shows why the UA needs to build the rainbow bridge over I-10, to link the two sides. To that I say, that's what the modern streetcar will do.

Or even Clark Street. I'd actually like to see them spend any of that bridge money on doing some sort of interpretive, outdoor trail along Clark.

If the bridge was just going to span a road, I would certainly support it. But the distance of the span over the highway + the river is just ridiculous.

Yeah, I agree that that's really Downtown's biggest problem and what sets it apart: its size. I don't think I've ever come across a city with a Downtown as small in land area as Tucson's. Plus, it just has no where to go anymore. They certainly can't level any more of Barrio Viejo.

[MJLO]

Dean i'm glad you enjoyed your vacation, I'd love to see some of the pics you took my friend!

[DeanofTucson]

I took 1,200 photos--which ones would you like to see?

Regarding the small size of Downtown Tucson:

I think that the area by Ice House Lofts and the new Barrio Brewing Company will get developed, and we will start to consider it part of Downtown. The only problem with that is that, other than the Toole Avenue connection, it's cut off from Downtown by Armory Park.

We won't be knocking down the other neighborhoods, either, to expand Downtown. I think 6th Street, Stone Avenue, and 4th Avenue will densify.

Economic pressure will ultimately force us to get creative with land use to maximize the land area, and I think the days when shortsighted bureaucrats like Emily Nottingham, Karen Thoreson and John Updike were allowed to make important decisions is over. There is far more scrutiny now than there was even as recently as last year, by the media, by the stakeholders, and by the City Council.

We have to build underground parking. The Jolly Green Giant garage on Pennington is useful for now, but we cannot afford to build more above-ground land-wasters like that anymore.

Dean i'm glad you enjoyed your vacation, I'd love to see some of the pics you took my friend!

[MJLO]

wow that many pictures! I don't think i've taken that many in my lifetime.

It's hard to say what should be posted, pictures of Grand Rapids get posted everyday on this website. Any pics in here should be devoted to Tucson or AZ in general.

[colin]

For those who are interested, there is a meeting of Downtown Links' Citizen Advisory Committee on Monday, August 14th at 5:30pm at the Valdez (Downtown) Library's lower-level conference room.

Downtown Links does mostly transportation stuff in the Downtown area, but there will be a presentation from Jim Campbell and Jim Glock on the Plaza Centro project.

Feel free to come out, especially if you're in Phoenix (j/k). I've never been to one of these, but it's obviously open to the public because I keep getting their fliers mailed to me at work and I've never expressed interest in being on one of their boards.

On a completely unrelated note, my apartment building is probably going to be purchased by Californians (I only know where they're from because I stumbled upon their secret meeting on Friday before heading to the mountains). Word around the laundry room is that it may be turned into condos. If that's the case, then it would almost certainly be gutted and I would be kicked out. "Why now?" is really the question in my mind, since condo prices are collapsing in town, and Presidio Terrace (a brand new building) will be offering probably a better product right across the street.

If I do have to leave, I'll probably either move to Armory Park or Sam Hughes (I'd love to be close to Rincon Market). Lofts here are still selling at $300k (although they've gotten a lot more desperate) and I haven't seen any of them up for rent.

[ErinJ]

...

On a completely unrelated note, my apartment building is probably going to be purchased by Californians (I only know where they're from because I stumbled upon their secret meeting on Friday before heading to the mountains). Word around the laundry room is that it may be turned into condos. If that's the case, then it would almost certainly be gutted and I would be kicked out. "Why now?" is really the question in my mind, since condo prices are collapsing in town, and Presidio Terrace (a brand new building) will be offering probably a better product right across the street.

If I do have to leave, I'll probably either move to Armory Park or Sam Hughes (I'd love to be close to Rincon Market). Lofts here are still selling at $300k (although they've gotten a lot more desperate) and I haven't seen any of them up for rent.

I seem to remember reading that Academy Lofts ( Just south of Armory Park ??? ) would be renting, but I don't know about the price. I lived in Tucson back in the early-late 90's when I attended UA, then worked at Raytheon. I lived in Sam Hughes ( Capistrano Apts. ), I loved that neighborhood! You could take the bike route to school, walk to himmel park. In fact it was one of the few walkable neighborhoods in Tucson, quiet, shaded, fairly interesting architecture.

After rummaging through this thread, It seems that Rio Nuevo is just starting to show results. They approved that financing before I left ( 2000 )! I thought they would be FINISHED by now. Man, I love Tucson but things sure do happen at their own in pace in that town.

[loftguy]

http://www.azstarnet.com/dailystar/business/141168.php

[colin]

The nice folks at Rio Nuevo sent me a flier. Here's the text. Feel free to come out:

Rio Nuevo will hold an Open House to review work in progress on the vision, guiding principles and preliminary design concepts for the Mission San Agustin Compelx - part of the Tucson Origins Heritage Park, the culture cornerstone project of Rio Nuevo.

The Mission San Agustin Complex will be located on 20-acres at the foot of "A" Mountain, west of the interstate. Reconstructed mission buildings and assocaiated elements will interpret the rich history of this site.

Burns Wald-Hopkins Architects and the consultant team assembled for this project will be present to receive input and answer questions regarding the program direction for architecture, interpretation, operations and Mission Garden/landscape aspects of the project.

The public is invited to attend. Community input and support is vital to making the Mission San Agustin Complex a success.

Wednesday, Aug. 23, 2006

Stop by anytime between 5:00 p.m. and 7:00 p.m.

Welcome, introduction and presentation at 5:30 p.m.

Tucson Convention Center

Mohave Room

260 S. Church Ave.

There ya go. I'm certainly interested in seeing what the architects are planning on doing with it.

[convulso]

Rio Nuevo will hold an Open House to review work in progress on the vision, guiding principles and preliminary design concepts for the Mission San Agustin Compelx - part of the Tucson Origins Heritage Park, the culture cornerstone project of Rio Nuevo.

The public is invited to attend.

if i can make it back to tucson by then, i'm there.

Edited August 11, 2006 by convulso

[colin]

Cool!!

BTW, a couple of things to mention regarding projects that I should have pictures for but don't:

- Lofts at Fifth Avenue (Sixth Street and Fifth Avenue, loft project)

There is now an enormous hole in the ground for the foundation, the old Muse sign is down, the debris from the old building is completely cleared, and they are actually working on it (at least they were when I rode my bike behind it this morning at 7).

- Presidio Terrace (Paseo Redondo and Granada Avenue, mixed-use condo project)

Last week, a sign was put up on the corner in front of the site saying something to the effect of "Look! Rio Nuevo is actually happening!"

The funny thing is, I could have sworn hearing people from the City several months ago insisting that Presidio Terrace was not part of Rio Nuevo. Actually, I know for a fact that this project is not receiving any funding from them. Maybe this is just a way for the City to attach itself to something successful and adopt it as a poster project without actually getting involved with it.

Also, a story:

I was at La Placita last night, which shows free (with a suggested $3 donation) movies every Thursday night between May and October. It's cool because your outdoors right in the plaza, and you can bring your own food and drink (although alcohol is technically prohibited).

Anyway, they showed "Holy Grail" last night, and before the show and during intermissions, they had a slideshow with sponsors and some old pictures of Tucson. I couldn't help but notice that many of these pictures were actually projects that have been or are up for re-development per Rio Nuevo. Specifically the train Depot (already completed but part of a larger, more contentious project) and the Santa Rita (which itself has yet to move in any direction). Maybe the Tucson Film Society who sponsors this event is trying to make a commercial Rio Nuevo?

[ErinJ]

Cool!!

BTW, a couple of things to mention regarding projects that I should have pictures for but don't:

- Lofts at Fifth Avenue (Sixth Street and Fifth Avenue, loft project)

There is now an enormous hole in the ground for the foundation, the old Muse sign is down, the debris from the old building is completely cleared, and they are actually working on it (at least they were when I rode my bike behind it this morning at 7).

- Presidio Terrace (Paseo Redondo and Granada Avenue, mixed-use condo project)

Last week, a sign was put up on the corner in front of the site saying something to the effect of "Look! Rio Nuevo is actually happening!"

The funny thing is, I could have sworn hearing people from the City several months ago insisting that Presidio Terrace was not part of Rio Nuevo. Actually, I know for a fact that this project is not receiving any funding from them. Maybe this is just a way for the City to attach itself to something successful and adopt it as a poster project without actually getting involved with it.

Just curious about 1 project, I doubt it is part of rio nuevo but it used to be mentioned in conjunction with it.

There was a project called "One West" http://www.azstarnet.com/dailystar/sports/88586.php . The developer was running into opposition in that the neighbors wanted 33% of the units to be WAY below market rate. It sounded like it would go forward eventually ( obviously not with that requirement ), but then

it just seemed to disappear off the radar. Do you know anything about the status of that project?

It would be nice to have density near the university, but I know the neigborhoods strongly oppose this as temporary out of state, 20-year-old, non-stakeholding residents don't make the best neighbors . I hope some of these projects go through, because if the city could change its super-low density development pattern and get some nice infill, Tucson would rock!

Edited August 12, 2006 by ErinJ

[colin]

I vaguely remember hearing about this. I would assume that it would be on the southwest corner of Stone and Speedway, which would put it in a vacant lot next to the ghetto Best Western and directly across the street from Pima's main campus.

There are already three large semi-dorm/college-oriented apartment complexes on Stone between Sixth and Grant, and at what they charge for them, I doubt that their occupancy is very high. You also have to remember that this area is over a mile from campus down hot, dusty Speedway Boulevard.

I think it was just talk. But it would be nice if they could develop that vacant lot into something cool.

There has been quite a bit of in-fill since you left. Even in the short time that I've been here some interesting projects have gone up and others should be soon coming. Although most of the development remains tract homes on the fringes of the city.

[convulso]

There are already three large semi-dorm/college-oriented apartment complexes on Stone between Sixth and Grant, and at what they charge for them, I doubt that their occupancy is very high.

as in Sahara? that place is a joke! the prices are nuts and they try to appease worried parents by giving the kids something to do without leaving the apartments - thereby making you pay separately for the amenities you would normally find included in an on-campus dorm.

oh - this thread is about rio nuevo...

Edited August 12, 2006 by convulso

[colin]

Sahara...

It sounds so exotic, no?

No.

Sahara is one of the more interesting ones because they gutted and remodeled what was a really nasty motel. I wish they would do something similar with the rest of those crack motels on Stone. The complex also includes a little cafe/grocery ("Cream & Sugar") and, of all things, a computer shop.

Yeah, the rent is nuts. They ran ads in the Daily Wildcat every day when they first opened, and I couldn't understand why anyone would pay that much for an apartment in Tucson, especially when their kids have to share it with others.

Further uptown at North Pointe (another semi-dorm place and where they had the double shooting last week) isn't much better for rent, even though it's pretty far away from campus.

There are some pretty nice dorms on campus, but even if you don't want to live with a bunch of other people, there's still plenty of cheap apartments right by the U of A. I just don't understand why parents would want to pay so much more for a newer place only because it has a pool and weight room, especially since those same parents pay a big fee each semester for the nice rec center.

If it is "safety" then that's total bs. People need to do their research on these places because they seem to get more police activity than even the more nasty apartment complexes in town.

[ErinJ]

as in Sahara? that place is a joke! the prices are nuts and they try to appease worried parents by giving the kids something to do without leaving the apartments - thereby making you pay separately for the amenities you would normally find included in an on-campus dorm.

oh - this thread is about rio nuevo...

Wow, I remember Sahara was a sort of gateway to probably the worst neighborhood in Tucson.

I wouldn't want to live there with the balboa (?) neighborhood to the north and the crack dealer park to the south. I just went to their website,$580 for a studio ?!?!?!?! The capistrano apts. I lived at was the same price ( Large 1 Bedroom), utilities Free, and in a great, quiet neighbourhood with easy access to the University on the 3rd street bike route!

Glad to hear about the infill, I know they were developing University Blvd. before I left, but that is old news now, nevertheless I am looking forward to see how it turned out. They were claiming to develope it into a little "Mill avenue", which I have mixed feelings about. Mill avenue is really nice, but kind of souless. It would be cool to sort of have one long (zig-zag) drag, starting from the university and ending on Congress. At the university it would start out with a Tempe corporate feel and as you made your way down it gave way to the funkiness of fourth, and finally ending a Congress. Well, that is probably not possible because the west university neighborhood sits between.

Edited August 13, 2006 by ErinJ

[colin]

Balboa is a little further north. That's still a pretty bad area. The drugs have been cleaned up in Tucson somewhat, but the streetwalking is still alive and well. A couple of infamous motels have been shut down, but you can still clearly see them out there on Drachman, Oracle and Miracle Mile most nights.

De Anza Park (at the corner of Stone and Speedway) was cleaned up by the neighborhood. The Dunbar Spring neighborhood (on the west of Stone and south of Speedway) has gotten much better.

I totally agree about Mill. It's just chain stores. I mean, even the brewpub is a chain.

But this is Tucson, we can't have too many chain places in one area. The University corridor redevelopment has emerged as "Main Gate Square" which is more chain-oriented, with a Pei-Wei, Chipotle, La Salsa, Johnny Rockets, etc, but all of the older buildings on the south side of the street are still certainly there and it's still almost all independent places. For example, Frog n' Firkin and No Anchovies are still in the same buildings, that cool, old structure on the southeast corner with Euclid is still in tact, and the neighborhood west of Euclid is still nothing but gorgeous, old houses.

I don't think Tucson will ever have a true Mill comparison.

[colin]

BTW, Sahara sent me a flier yesterday for a BBQ they're having next Friday, as well as a "Saturday Brunch". I also got lots of coupons for "Cream & Sugar." Whoopee!!

I'm curious as to why they sent it to me of all people. Why would I want to live in a glorified dorm that costs more than my current apartment?

[convulso]

The drugs have been cleaned up in Tucson somewhat, but the streetwalking is still alive and well.

De Anza Park (at the corner of Stone and Speedway) was cleaned up by the neighborhood. The Dunbar Spring neighborhood (on the west of Stone and south of Speedway) has gotten much better.

how recent is this? has it happened in the last - what? three? - years since you've lived in tucson?

[colin]

how recent is this? has it happened in the last - what? three? - years since you've lived in tucson?

Hmm...

No it's been going on longer than I've lived here, but I've definitely noticed marked improvement in the Central area since then. Even Downtown has gotten a little better.

There was an article in the Weekly about 6 months ago about Catalina Park chronicling the surrounding neighborhood's work to get the drug dealers out. A lot of it has to do with housing prices: people can't afford to live in the more desirable neighborhoods like Sam Hughes and El Encanto, so they have to move to the less desirable places (or formerly less desirable) like Dunbar Springs, Barrio Anita, Iron Horse, Menlo Park, parts of West University, etc, or live way out in the sticks. Most people just really don't want to live outside of the city. When they moved to these places, they worked to kick the criminal element out, and it's been successful in many areas.