Tucson Downtown/Rio Nuevo Thread

[colin]

Restaurant to open Downtown

This is really good. The North Stone corridor is where we need restaurants and nightlife right now. They also need to do something with that damned "Coconuts" building.

I'm pretty sure that this is the northwest corner of Stone and Council (across from the YMCA), which I believe is now vacant.

[colin]

The Weekly mentions "Barrio Brewing Company" which is the monicker Gentle Ben's is using for their new, warehouse district brewpub in their "Noshing Around" section this week.

Noshing Around

They say late September, and I confirmed this with the sort of Ben's bum I know.

This is the same article that gives gossip on In n' Out, as well as other new restaurants, so it's worth reading most of the time.

But you can imagine what this is going to do for this area. Armory Park is down the street a little, but most of this district is dilapidated warehouse space just begging to be refurbished into residential space. Keep an eye out for the grand opening.

[ErinJ]

http://www.tucsoncitizen.com/daily/local/22979.php

You know, I think the bridge is cool. I would love to see an iconic structure in Tucson. Seems like

no one else does, at least no one else who writes letters to newspapers. It does seem to be the type

of thing Tucsonans would oppose, as it is big and modern. Oh well, the fact is the city won't pay for it and the University will have to get like $250 million in donations to build it, and I doubt that will happen. I've seen some people here object to it, just curious, is it the design, the scale,

or the price?? Something else? It is of course easy for me to support it when I don't live there.

So I wonder, if Tucson saves the $150M+ of rio nuevo funds by not building the bridge, how would people like to see it spent? In my mind the thing about downtown is its size, there is limited area to work in. People need to be living downtown for a vibrant downtown, but that is for the private sector, Tucson can only use rio nuevo money infrastructure.

All I have really seen proposed from the city side is a new underpass, parking, a few small historical parks, and maybe an arena. What is that, $100M? $150M? Tucson has $600+ million rio nuevo funds to spend, which they have to match with another $600 million, $1.2 billion!. Where are they going to put all that money? They can't underwrite infrastructure for dozens of "mercado at menlo park" neighborhoods, there is nowhere to put them. Downtown is like 6 blocks total, and it would be hard to expand its borders.

I am not trying to claim they should blow the wad on that bridge though, no matter how cool I think it is. What I think we need to see is some creative proposals, and the bridge is the only one I've seen.

[colin]

Well, the cornerstone of Rio Nuevo (and where it got its name) is the Mission San Agustin re-construction which has yet to start. There are also quite a few mixed-use projects going up around town that Rio Nuevo will be helping out, including the Santa Rita's facelift, Depot Plaza, etc. Then there's the trolley extension, the new Fourth Avenue underpass, the new State Museum, Historical Society museum, and, of course, the Science Center. Personally, I don't think the arena will happen. It would be nice to have an amateur soccer or hockey team Downtown (something more organized than the Ice Cats), but it's just so expensive.

I'm against the bridge because of money and scale. I don't know that Dean still lurks on this thread, but he had a good point earlier in this thread about how they had planned it originally at a certain amount that they could afford, but then got a world-renowned architect to jack up the price pretty considerably and now it's just spun out of control.

My main concern is that it inhibits the views of the mountains, which are particularly dramatic when you come around the bend from the south on I-10 and see them against the Downtown skyline. That's what sells Tucson.

Plus, I don't really see the logic of an iconic bridge in a town without water.

But you're right, everyone is against it at this point. As you mentioned, City Council has already refused Flandrau any money for this project, and the initial "OOH!" that was in the media when the bridge was first introduced seems to have completely worn off. I've gotten the sense from talking to Rio Nuevo people that even they're against it (there's also a post further up about that in this thread).

Personally, I would like to see them use that money first on the inevitable cost overruns that the Science Center will incur, and then some money making Clearwater Drive (the extension of Clark Street over the river) into an interpretive trail of sorts, with lots of natural vegetation and itself acting almost like a Desert Museum (without the cougars and other animals, of course) by showing visitors info on the Sonoran Desert, as that would be the main connection between the two sides of the Science Center. Maybe even have a little tram of sorts running along the route.

Take a look at the Rio Nuevo map for more info on the projects:

http://www.tucsonaz.gov/rionuevo/tour/tourmap.html

They just redid this map, too. I can tell because "Rialto" is spelled wrong on it and Presidio Terrace, the Marriott Starr Pass and Franklin Court are now all making appearances on it, despite having basically nothing to do with Rio Nuevo (although, as I mentioned above, Presidio Terrace does now have a sign in front of it).

[colin]

BTW, I should update Presidio Terrace:

As of this morning, you can no longer park in the lot that now occupies the site, and a crew from the City was out this morning pruning and cleaning up tree branches and such.

Also, I still haven't heard anything about getting kicked out of my apartment, but I did find loft rentals on Craig's List:

There's one at Ice House is going for $850 and one at Academy going for $820.

Just a little out of my price range. Plus, that's just not worth it IMHO, especially considering that I could probably get a mortgage right now on a little house in Central Tucson for that much.

[colin]

This was in the Daily Star this morning. It mainly discusses the general trend of converting buildings versus new construction. Some Tucson projects are mentioned in the gray box at right:

Hotel-condo concept is spreading across nation

I didn't know that the Inn & Suites was doing this. I don't really get that one, especially considering that La Entrada is building basically the same thing (but nicer) right next door.

Also didn't know about Canoa Ranch, although it's existed for some time as a retirement community. Green Valley doesn't really have anything like that right now, and the closest thing is Rio Rico ten or so miles south, so I think that it should be fairly successful. Their site doesn't make mention of the hotel angle: http://www.canoaranchresort.com/.

And I had forgotten about Manning House. I'm actually glad that that deal fell through because, from what I understood, it would have really undermined the historical integrity of the place.

[colin]

BOOM! BOOM!

KNOCKOUT!!

UA pulls its support for Rainbow Bridge

Oh, Rainbow Bridge! Let me count the ways in which I'm happy to see you die...

[DeanofTucson]

Actually, Presidio Terrace is getting $2 million from Rio Nuevo for the underground parking, since most of it will be public parking. They are replacing 125 spaces that had been there for the use of the Tucson Museum of Art. This is how Rio Nuevo can help private projects, to pay for infrastructure for public improvements.

Having said that, Rio Nuevo is always happy to take credit for anything positive in Downtown. The developers of Ice House Lofts got really upset when Rio Nuevo tried to take credit for their project. They risked their capital and got nothing from the City in help or incentives, but it was at the top of the list of Rio Nuevo projects in one of the brochures.

Cool!!

BTW, a couple of things to mention regarding projects that I should have pictures for but don't:

- Lofts at Fifth Avenue (Sixth Street and Fifth Avenue, loft project)

There is now an enormous hole in the ground for the foundation, the old Muse sign is down, the debris from the old building is completely cleared, and they are actually working on it (at least they were when I rode my bike behind it this morning at 7).

- Presidio Terrace (Paseo Redondo and Granada Avenue, mixed-use condo project)

Last week, a sign was put up on the corner in front of the site saying something to the effect of "Look! Rio Nuevo is actually happening!"

The funny thing is, I could have sworn hearing people from the City several months ago insisting that Presidio Terrace was not part of Rio Nuevo. Actually, I know for a fact that this project is not receiving any funding from them. Maybe this is just a way for the City to attach itself to something successful and adopt it as a poster project without actually getting involved with it.

Also, a story:

I was at La Placita last night, which shows free (with a suggested $3 donation) movies every Thursday night between May and October. It's cool because your outdoors right in the plaza, and you can bring your own food and drink (although alcohol is technically prohibited).

Anyway, they showed "Holy Grail" last night, and before the show and during intermissions, they had a slideshow with sponsors and some old pictures of Tucson. I couldn't help but notice that many of these pictures were actually projects that have been or are up for re-development per Rio Nuevo. Specifically the train Depot (already completed but part of a larger, more contentious project) and the Santa Rita (which itself has yet to move in any direction). Maybe the Tucson Film Society who sponsors this event is trying to make a commercial Rio Nuevo?

[DeanofTucson]

Yes, Colin, Dean still lurks! Everybody must have been on vacation at the same time, because no one posted anything for several days and I got out of the habit of checking in. Now I'm catching up.

Actually, the Coconuts building was bought by the County for their new County-City court complex. Coconuts and the little former gas station on Council Street will come down soon so that they can do archaeological investigation and see how many skeletons they find. The site was a cemetery in the late 1800s and when they moved the cemetery further north so they could develop the property, they didn't relocate all the gravesites. The county fears there may be 500 skeletons. They will use the old Arts Council building at Stone and Council as the forensic lab, and then that building will come down too.

You can read all about it in the August issue of Downtown Tucsonan, or on-line at http://www.downtowntucson.org/downtowntucs...lsigns.html#VS1

The new restaurant is coming into the old Mountain Oyster Club, across from Coconuts.

Restaurant to open Downtown

This is really good. The North Stone corridor is where we need restaurants and nightlife right now. They also need to do something with that damned "Coconuts" building.

I'm pretty sure that this is the northwest corner of Stone and Council (across from the YMCA), which I believe is now vacant.

[colin]

Glad to see that you're still around, Dean.

I didn't mean to imply that the restaurant was going into the former Coconuts building (that would be a big restaurant).

I saw that they had finally fenced off the parking lot at the site a few days ago. I'm sure that was a sweet deal for some Downtown workers for a while.

It would certainly be nice to get any skeletons out of the ground. I mean, we certainly don't want Craig T. Nelson coming down here yelling "You moved the headstones, but you didn't move the bodies!"

I saw Interpol play at Coconuts about two years ago. What an awful place. It was just way too big for its own good. My friend told me that it was actually an all-ages club and had a 21+ drinking section roped off.

I'm still very excited about this restaurant project. I'll be over there as much as I can be when it opens.

[colin]

It's a story about Tucson's zoning but applies to many mid-sized cities.

Infill promises benefits, evokes concerns

It's often the case that the zoning laws, meant to protect a neighborhood by keeping things like industrial salvage yards out of peoples' backyards, is itself putting restrictions on mixed-use developments, which have become very desirable in-fill designs.

Is the answer individual variances, or should there be a fundamental change in how these zoning laws are written and applied in urban areas?

[colin]

City, Town West sign project pact

It seems that Counts and Nimbus are now officially out of the game for the concrete slab.

Now begins the fun part. Before the Nimbus thing spun out of control, things like affordable housing (from WAMO) and parking (from El Presidio) came up in discussions. Height was also an issue, but I think that, now that Presidio Terrace (about the same height as the Town West design) has been approved by the council, it will be less of an issue.

Maybe in ten years this will be a bustling restaurant corridor? One can only hope.

[colin]

A couple of stories today:

I have never heard of this project (the commercial/residential 6-story development mentioned), but would love more info on it if anyone can provide:

Miracle Mile/ North Oracle Road was once city milestone

Personally, I love the "rotary" (I've rarely heard it called that, usually Americans say "traffic circle"). I think traffic actually flows better through it, except on Main Avenue northbound, where people actually have to stop (as opposed to the traditional yield) at the entrance to it. Roundabouts are so rare here though, that people aren't used to them and don't really understand the concept. There was one at a major intersection in Midtown Houston that would cause all kinds of problems for people who didn't drive it every day. I'd still like to see more of them though.

I'm surprised the article mentioned nothing of how nasty Miracle Mile has become.

MLK project may not be demolished

I don't think that this is in any way the last evolution of this project. The old MLK apartment building is just ugly, and I don't imagine anyone would pay "market rate" to live there, regardless of how nice the interiors are.

[colin]

A couple of news items:

- The Coconuts demolition has actually progressed quite well. A lot faster than I would have imagined.

- No further work on Presidio Terrace yet. Kind of disappointing.

This was in the Daily Star this morning. Pretty embarrassing to the City considering that this has been going back and forth for years. But it sort of exemplifies the confusion associated with land title ownership:

'A' Mtn. surprise: City may own land

[ErinJ]

A couple of news items:

- The Coconuts demolition has actually progressed quite well. A lot faster than I would have imagined.

- No further work on Presidio Terrace yet. Kind of disappointing.

This was in the Daily Star this morning. Pretty embarrassing to the City considering that this has been going back and forth for years. But it sort of exemplifies the confusion associated with land title ownership:

'A' Mtn. surprise: City may own land

Are there plans for that property?? Is Coconuts in a old warehouse just north of downtown on Stone? I think that used to be called "the outback". I recall that the Presidio Terrace wouldn't start until 2007, but I don't remember why.

[colin]

Are there plans for that property?? Is Coconuts in a old warehouse just north of downtown on Stone? I think that used to be called "the outback". I recall that the Presidio Terrace wouldn't start until 2007, but I don't remember why.

According to Dean in a reply above this is to be the new City Courts Building, moving from that dump they're in on Alameda now.

I don't know that the Coconuts building was ever a warehouse. The warehouses were generally along the railroad, and this is across Toole Avenue. As Dean also mentioned, it was a cemetary in the early years of the city's history, which is why they are now having to do some exhumations (pretty creepy).

Yeah, Spring 2007 is the scheduled start for construction. I'm very excited about the project, so it just frustrates me to not see things happening as that usually indicates project delays. They have a lot of work to do on this site too.

[DeanofTucson]

I know that the Coconuts property had been in the same family for several decades, and that the site had been the home of their family business many years ago--the Baum-Adamson Tire Shop. I'm not sure if the Coconuts building itself was part of Baum-Adamson (as opposed to being constructed later), but I believe it was.

The new court building is a joint county-city court complex, but the county is taking the lead on its development. The crappy City Courts building on Alameda will be knocked down after the new building is completed. As of now, it's planned for structured parking.

According to Dean in a reply above this is to be the new City Courts Building, moving from that dump they're in on Alameda now.

I don't know that the Coconuts building was ever a warehouse. The warehouses were generally along the railroad, and this is across Toole Avenue. As Dean also mentioned, it was a cemetary in the early years of the city's history, which is why they are now having to do some exhumations (pretty creepy).

Yeah, Spring 2007 is the scheduled start for construction. I'm very excited about the project, so it just frustrates me to not see things happening as that usually indicates project delays. They have a lot of work to do on this site too.

[colin]

This was pretty unexpected. Any thoughts?

Surveillance cameras to watch Downtown

[colin]

City likely to pay $3.6M of UA bridge bill

This is really upsetting to me. Shelton came on recently as UA president and cut the budget fairly significantly. Now we find that $7.1 million was spent on this damned bridge without anything to show for it??

Granted the City has that $20 million pot (most of which will probably be wasted anyway) they can throw at it, but why should the City be responsible for the poor decisions of some UA jackasses? It was their decision (specifically Flandrau, I believe) to hire some world-renowned architect and then to go hurtling blindly into Rio Nuevo ignoring public opinion all the way. The City certainly makes some bad decisions, but this was not the City's decision and I just don't see how it's the City's responsibility to now clean up the mess, especially for $3.6 million. I can see that if the City had pledged support to the project before it was canceled that it would somehow be responsible for this clean-up fund, but exactly the opposite happened and it was never supported, so the City should use that money for things that actually have a snowball's chance in hell.

Just a thought.

[DeanofTucson]

I hear that the City is going to pay it, but that it will come out of the $20 million they promised the UA three years ago.

Not all of the $7 million went for the bridge design, as they had done a lot of work on designing the science center and its exhibits prior to the hiring of the egomaniac architect.

By the way, for the 30 firms that thought they were being fairly considered for the design of the center, think again. In the late 90's, the head of some Columbia University division oversaw the construction of a building designed by Vinoly. Peter Eisenberger was his name, and a couple years later, he met Alexis Faust at Princeton. After she came to Arizona and began working on this project, she summoned Eisenberger to be a member of her technical advisory board. He promptly became the biggest cheerleader for this "iconic" architecture concept, with the deal going to his old buddy Rafael. Google for yourself.

City likely to pay $3.6M of UA bridge bill

This is really upsetting to me. Shelton came on recently as UA president and cut the budget fairly significantly. Now we find that $7.1 million was spent on this damned bridge without anything to show for it??

Granted the City has that $20 million pot (most of which will probably be wasted anyway) they can throw at it, but why should the City be responsible for the poor decisions of some UA jackasses? It was their decision (specifically Flandrau, I believe) to hire some world-renowned architect and then to go hurtling blindly into Rio Nuevo ignoring public opinion all the way. The City certainly makes some bad decisions, but this was not the City's decision and I just don't see how it's the City's responsibility to now clean up the mess, especially for $3.6 million. I can see that if the City had pledged support to the project before it was canceled that it would somehow be responsible for this clean-up fund, but exactly the opposite happened and it was never supported, so the City should use that money for things that actually have a snowball's chance in hell.

Just a thought.

[DeanofTucson]

The negative reaction was overblown.

Minneapolis uses this system and it allows them to make on-the-spot arrests with high-resolution video evidence that gives them a 100% conviction rate. It will be interesting to see if the crime rate in Downtown Minneapolis actually dips.

I'm in favor of Downtown getting a lot more restaurants and nightclubs, and I think the cameras will help Tucson residents who are afraid of Downtown now, feel more safe. With more drinking establishments and nightlife, it will be nice to have some tools to solve some crimes and maybe deter some bad behavior that is the negative flipside of entertainment districts.

This was pretty unexpected. Any thoughts?

Surveillance cameras to watch Downtown

[colin]

I think people are more afraid of the homeless population Downtown than anything else. And that murder last month certainly didn't make things better. It is pretty intimidating walking down Congress alone late on an off night, and it would be reassuring to have a camera keeping an eye on you.

BTW, I'm sure there will be many others, but Raul Reyes will present what will hopefully be a revised brewery/condo proposal for the Stone/Franklin site to the El Presidio Neighborhood Association tomorrow night at 7pm at the Women's Commission Building (corner of Council and Court). Our meetings are slated to last one hour, and this is the only thing on the agenda, but I imagine that it will go on longer as questions are fielded.

I was told that we were expecting quite a crowd. As I said, I believe that this is the first time since Counts was dumped that TownWest has presented anything outside of the city offices, so probably the vocally critical WAMO people will be there, as will some from across the street in Dunbar Springs.

All others are welcome, of course.

[colin]

Back to the Franklin/Stone mixed-use/condo proposal:

At last night's meeting, something very different from the previous proposal was introduced:

1. The brewpub was effectively gone and there was a large retail space (insinuated to be a restaurant) at the center of the property adjacent to the main condo building. Raul Reyes insisted though that Jim Counts (Nimbus owner) is not out of the picture and that they are "still talking to him".

2. The "public space" with the amphitheater has been made actually public, opening it up to Franklin Street.

3. Franklin Street was shown dramatically different with more pedestrian crossings, an end to the Franklin/Church intersection o' weirdness, a median and angled street parking.

4. The parking garage now faces the railroad.

5. The terraced building now goes 4-6-12-10 stories from west to east. People at the meeting, as expected, complained about the height.

6. The $600,000+ which must be paid back to the state for use of the land will be paid by TownWest, but basically reimbursed by the City's/Rio Nuevo's funding of the infrastructure and public areas on the project site.

Reyes certainly received enough criticism during the meeting, but I was still concerned about the aesthetics of the building. It's basically a big glass tower with a brick facade bottom. That doesn't really mesh with any architecture of the surrounding areas.

Also, the new County courts building was brought up a few times, which is caddy-corner to this site. The County seems to have been fairly secretive thus far about its design and the specifics for plans to the site, because no one seemed to know anything about it.

We'll just have to see how it plays out, but I hope that this isn't the last EPNA sees of Raul Reyes.

[ErinJ]

Complaints about a midrise building IN downtown, now THAT'S the Tucson I remember

I hope he comes through though. I would love to see a brewpub there too, even if it is not nimbus.

But please not a chain! Any progress on those other projects?:

Post

Presidio Terrace

5th Street Lofts

Back to the Franklin/Stone mixed-use/condo proposal:

At last night's meeting, something very different from the previous proposal was introduced:

1. The brewpub was effectively gone and there was a large retail space (insinuated to be a restaurant) at the center of the property adjacent to the main condo building. Raul Reyes insisted though that Jim Counts (Nimbus owner) is not out of the picture and that they are "still talking to him".

2. The "public space" with the amphitheater has been made actually public, opening it up to Franklin Street.

3. Franklin Street was shown dramatically different with more pedestrian crossings, an end to the Franklin/Church intersection o' weirdness, a median and angled street parking.

4. The parking garage now faces the railroad.

5. The terraced building now goes 4-6-12-10 stories from west to east. People at the meeting, as expected, complained about the height.

6. The $600,000+ which must be paid back to the state for use of the land will be paid by TownWest, but basically reimbursed by the City's/Rio Nuevo's funding of the infrastructure and public areas on the project site.

Reyes certainly received enough criticism during the meeting, but I was still concerned about the aesthetics of the building. It's basically a big glass tower with a brick facade bottom. That doesn't really mesh with any architecture of the surrounding areas.

Also, the new County courts building was brought up a few times, which is caddy-corner to this site. The County seems to have been fairly secretive thus far about its design and the specifics for plans to the site, because no one seemed to know anything about it.

We'll just have to see how it plays out, but I hope that this isn't the last EPNA sees of Raul Reyes.

[colin]

Hey Erin!

Well, Barrio Brewing (Gentle Ben's) should be open early next year. I was shown photos of the raising of their silo yesterday from a couple of weeks ago, and apparently the delay is due to the contractor laying the concrete floor wrong (it drained toward the bar instead of toward the drain). This will be around 16th and Toole in the Warehouse District.

Anyway, you're right, people hate height here. It's funny though, because you talk about density and they'll insist "We don't necessarily need density" but then you talk about low density (i.e. - tract housing) and they'll go "Oh, that's terrible stuff, we don't need that".

I see the fact that Presidio Terrace went through is a positive toward this project. The majority of the anti-height people are in the El Presidio neighborhood though. The others are just concerned about affordable housing, public open space, traffic and noise.

But it is funny because this project isn't really that high, but it's an extremely polarizing subject. I mentioned the new Courts building, and it's a concern that no one knows anything about it because, if that's going to be 15 or 20 stories tall, then the height argument on this project is almost totally invalid.

There was a reporter at this meeting, but I'm not sure from where, so there should be something in a paper about this meeting tomorrow or sometime in the near future.

Per other projects:

Presidio Terrace: nothing has changed in at least a month

Lofts at Fifth Ave: ditto

Post: they're holding Downtown Saturdays on the site again, but no activity