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Hanes Mall Boulevard & Stratford Road

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Proposed:

-Shoppes on Little Creek (retail, restaurants, offices)

-Spring Hill Suites

-Shoppes on Hanes Mall Boulevard.

-Wynnsong expansion

Recently built:

-Truliant HQ

-Shopping Center on old USAir site

-commercial space next to Carmax

New in the area:

-Dick's

-Hillcrest Mixed-use neighborhood

-Shops at Somerset?

-various restaurants in the Hanes mall lot

- Forsyth Hospital expansion

How much more can be built for this overcrowded thouroughfare. 2 new shopping centers and now news on a Hotel...which is greatly needed in W-S...will be built on west Hanes Mall Blvd. Here are some of the latest articles on development in this area. i think the west and north sides of the city are slowly catching up... but does everything NEW have to be on or near Hanes mall? dont get me wrong. im not complaining its just that Winston is a little one-sided to me. this type of development needs to be spread thorughout the whole city. Even though the bridge expansion over I-40 is will help, I cant picture this road handling the kind of traffic that will be generated if it continues to develop at this pace.

New Hotel

Bridge Expansion

New Retail

Shoppes on Little Creek

Rendering of Little Creek's 1st Building

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WHen is the Shoppes on Little Creek project scheduled to be completed?

Edited by DCMetroRaleigh

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I think this is really good for the area! I can tell you that the new coffee shop opening up will be Port City Java. It is taking them so darn long to build that Little Creek project! The land has been cleared for over a year and a half. The hotel is really neat but I wish it was built across the street. Have any of you seen the new Dick's? That thing is so HUGE! How much sport stuff can you fit into one store?

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man, the traffic there is already outrageous, what's a littme more traffic? :P

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This area of Winston would be much improved by tearing down the commercial development on either side of Hanes Mall Blvd, clearing the rubble, and starting over with gridded streets and multi-story mixed use buildings.

All the other commercial additions are just more crap that detract from any shreds of remaining local character that may have once existed in this area of the city.

Edited by transitman

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My grandmother lives in that area on Atwood Rd.

Roadgeek, I have edited my post above. While I was trying to be mildly funny, in retrospect I fear my post may have been in poor taste and I have edited it accordingly.

Your grandmother's neighborhood is exactly why I would like to have seen this area develop differently. When the area where Copeland's/etc was along Hanes Mall Blvd, I remember watching the bulldozers clearcut the whole area backing up to Beckwood Drive, Laguna Ave, etc. Many people in the city were aghast at how close the big box strip stuff on the south side of Hanes Mall Blvd was coming to the neighborhood.

See Map of Hanes Mall Blvd Area

As the Hanes Mall Blvd frontage fills up, it is possible developers will pressure these neighborhoods to sell and have their homes rezoned commercial.

I consider your grandmother's neighborhood to be an asset- a piece of "local character" threatened by the continued expansion of Hanes Mall Blvd commercialism.

Edited by transitman

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Roadgeek, I have edited my post above. While I was trying to be mildly funny, in retrospect I fear my post may have been in poor taste and I have edited it accordingly.

Your grandmother's neighborhood is exactly why I would like to have seen this area develop differently. When the area where Copeland's/etc was along Hanes Mall Blvd, I remember watching the bulldozers clearcut the whole area backing up to Beckwood Drive, Laguna Ave, etc. Many people in the city were aghast at how close the big box strip stuff on the south side of Hanes Mall Blvd was coming to the neighborhood.

See Map of Hanes Mall Blvd Area

As the Hanes Mall Blvd frontage fills up, it is possible developers will pressure these neighborhoods to sell and have their homes rezoned commercial.

I consider your grandmother's neighborhood to be an asset- a piece of "local character" threatened by the continued expansion of Hanes Mall Blvd commercialism.

No harm done.

Anyway, the best thing I can think of for Hanes Mall Boulevard is that it needs to be widened past the Target Shopping Center. I've always considered the Hanes Mall Boulevard area Winston-Salem's version of the Wendover Avenue area in southwest Greensboro. Look at Wendover. It's as wide as it can be. So maybe widening Hanes Mall Blvd. wouldn't help much. Just a thought.

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No harm done.

Anyway, the best thing I can think of for Hanes Mall Boulevard is that it needs to be widened past the Target Shopping Center. I've always considered the Hanes Mall Boulevard area Winston-Salem's version of the Wendover Avenue area in southwest Greensboro. Look at Wendover. It's as wide as it can be. So maybe widening Hanes Mall Blvd. wouldn't help much. Just a thought.

That's a good point. Hanes Mall Blvd and Wendover Avenue are comperable

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The thing that I admire about Winston is that it doesn't have as many retail "districts" such as Greensboro. In this I mean that retail hasn't shifted from one place to another. For instance in G'boro, retail moved form Cone Blvd (CCM) to High Point Ave to Wendover and possibly to Friendly. In Winston, we haven't yet experienced another new mall surge that has caused those problems in G'boro, but we should see one in the coming years. I'd like to see Hanes Mall get a new anchor (meaning more upscale). I do realize we will be getting a Macy's. For starters I was hoping we could get a Nordstrom. If we do, I hope it gets built in the Hanes Mall area and not up near University and Rural Hall. I truly think that some of the Children's Home land should be demolished and a new retail district (mall or lifestyle center) be put up there. Some of the once vacant store fronts have been transformed into some Buckhead like stores and restaurants. Either that site or this one that the Whitaker family owns off of Robinhood Rd. But they never sell due to the fact of them denying Krispy Kreme that site for their new HQ. Both of these sites could support a Hanes Mall size mall or a bit smaller.

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The thing that I admire about Winston is that it doesn't have as many retail "districts" such as Greensboro. In this I mean that retail hasn't shifted from one place to another. For instance in G'boro, retail moved form Cone Blvd (CCM) to High Point Ave to Wendover and possibly to Friendly. In Winston, we haven't yet experienced another new mall surge that has caused those problems in G'boro
Winston Salem has had many shifts over the years. Peter's Creek Parkway sort of compares to Greensboro's High Point Rd. Thruway Shopping Center had it's decline and now has come back. University Has had it's ups and downs. In Greensboro, retail didnt shift from CCM to High Point Rd. CCM and 4 Seasons were built within 5-7 yrs of one another. High Point Rd (and Lee Street) , near 4 Seasons was long a hot spot until Wendover. It remained a Hot Spot even with the building of CCM. (at least until wendover) Towns regularly go through these shifts, and as NC grows in population, we are bound to see more of these shifts. It's a regular pattern. The Hanes Mall area even had it's downtime before the recent growth of the past 10-15 yrs around it.

As for the original question-I dont think the area can handle much more traffic. It is already a mess. I think the comparison of Hanes Mall Blvd to Wendover a good one.

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But basically all of those retail districts you mentioned are all successful in ther own way and don't have as nearly as many vacant big box stores as G'boro does. In a way Winston has utilized some of the old big box space. When the old Circuit City closed on Stratford it was converted into a Jo Anns Fabric Center and a batting center. Up on University when Wal Mart closed, Sams Club moved in and renovated along with several other stores. Also on University, K-Mart closed and it's now being converted into a movie theater. On Robinhood, Kroger and Shoppers Parade were there and it is now a PEAK fitness center. On Silas Creek when Shoppers Paradise moved out, Colfax Furniture moved in, also when Kroger closed it became a Morningstar storage facility, and on Peters Creek, when Harris Teeter closed it became a Dynasty Furniture and now a hardware store. Sorry to go on and on but the thing i'm trying to get at is that we don't have as many shifts as some of our neighbors do.

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I could make the same sort of list for Greensboro - (and have somewhat on a few other threads). The point is that both cities have had areas that boom, and bust...and often come back. Winston is no better than Greensboro in that regard.

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i guess these will make up shoppes on little creek. this zonng petition will be voted on tonight.

1. PUBLIC HEARING ON ZONING PETITION OF LITTLE CREEK,

LLC FROM GB-S TO GB-S (Shopping Center; Wholesale Trade A;

Banking and Financial Services; Building Contractors, General; Car Wash;

Funeral Home; Hotel or Motel; Medical or Dental Laboratory; Medical

and Surgical Offices; Non-Store Retailer; Offices, Miscellaneous;

Professional Office; ABC Store; Arts and Crafts Studio; Building

Materials Supply; Convenience Store; Food or Drug Store; Furniture and

Home Furnishings Store; General Merchandise Store; Hardware Store;

Nursery, Lawn and Garden Supply Store, Retail; Restaurant (without

drive-through service); Restaurant (with drive-through service); Retail

Store, Specialty or Miscellaneous; Combined Use; Services, Business A;

Services, Business B; Services, Personal; Storage Services, Retail; Testing

and Research Lab; Veterinary Services; Warehousing; Recreational

Services, Indoor; Recreational Services, Outdoor; Theater, Indoor; Adult

Day Care Center; Child Care, Drop-In; Child Care, Sick Children; Child

Day Care Center; Church or Religious Institution, Neighborhood; Club or

Lodge; Government Offices; Hospital or Health Center; Library, Public;

Museum or Art Gallery; Police or Fire Station; and Post Office

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This area of Winston would be much improved by tearing down the commercial development on either side of Hanes Mall Blvd, clearing the rubble, and starting over with gridded streets and multi-story mixed use buildings.
Back when retail was in downtown Winston, the congestion was just as bad or worse than Hanes Mall Blvd is now. The projects along the road need better connections and more thoughtful site design, but turning it into a "downtown" style district does not eliminate or mitigate the traffic problems.

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From today's Winston-Salem Journal - the Little Creek reference is about half-way down.

City OKs zoning for Old Salem

Properties nonprofit group owns rezoned for 'small town' growth

By Bertrand M. Gutierrez

JOURNAL REPORTER

Before tourists can travel to another time and place in Old Salem, zoning laws must be set.

Old Salem Inc., the nonprofit group that oversees the restored Moravian village, got approval last night from the Winston-Salem City Council to rezone six acres to the pedestrian-business designation.

The rezoning affects properties that Old Salem owns on Broad, Walnut, Poplar and Marshall streets.

Previous zoning allowed for a variety of uses, including an industrial building. The new designation allows for office, retail, service and high-density residential uses - but built in a way that is appropriate for smaller communities, according to planning officials.

The designation was also to "encourage the development of attractive, identifiable small towns," according to the zoning application.

John Larsen, the vice president of restoration for Old Salem Inc., said after the meeting that the organization has no immediate plans for the six-acre lot but that the rezoning would allow long-term flexibility.

Council Member Molly Leight, who represents the ward where Old Salem is, said she was pleased with the request. "This is an upgrading of zoning, and I think it's delightful," she said.

In other action last night, the city council approved a request by Little Creek LLC, a developer with plans to build shops on 31 acres off Hanes Mall Boulevard.

When the Little Creek project was first approved, plans called for the developer not to build on more than 50 percent of the site until state road crews could widen Hanes Mall Boulevard. The N.C. Department of Transportation is behind schedule, which has caused some marketing problems for the developer, officials said during the meeting.

Last night, the developer asked for permission to move forward with construction without being tied to the DOT's completion of the widening project, planning officials said in their review of the application.

Although further construction could exacerbate traffic on Hanes Mall Boulevard, according to planning officials, council members unanimously approved the request with assurances that state road crews will work on the road.

Council Member Dan Besse said he has heard concerns from residents about storm-water runoff from the construction site. He and Greg Turner, the assistant city manager for public works, said that six containment barriers would be put in place by the end of next week.

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Back when retail was in downtown Winston, the congestion was just as bad or worse than Hanes Mall Blvd is now. The projects along the road need better connections and more thoughtful site design, but turning it into a "downtown" style district does not eliminate or mitigate the traffic problems.

When retail was in downtown Winston-Salem, the mindset was different - people didn't mind walking. People drove downtown, parked their car and walked from store to store thereby minimizing the traffic congestion. Downtown offered the ability to interact with other citizens on the city sidewalks as people went from Bocock-Stroud to Sosnicks to Norman Stockton. Now, people drive from store to store because there is no connection between big boxes and their seas of parking lots.

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When retail was in downtown Winston-Salem, the mindset was different - people didn't mind walking. People drove downtown, parked their car and walked from store to store thereby minimizing the traffic congestion. Downtown offered the ability to interact with other citizens on the city sidewalks as people went from Bocock-Stroud to Sosnicks to Norman Stockton. Now, people drive from store to store because there is no connection between big boxes and their seas of parking lots.
That was the mindset where people didn't shop as much, stores were smaller and locally-owned and downtown served a smaller regional market. That model does not work today.

Nowadays, people want a greater variety of goods from stores and shop a lot more often. Shoehorning that kind of retail into downtown would destroy it whether or not people parked and walked to the stores.

Trying to pull the old downtown way of thinking onto Hanes Mall Blvd, where land is more plentiful and there is no economic incentive to encourage density would just cost retailers and developers more money with no real benefit to business.

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That was the mindset where people didn't shop as much, stores were smaller and locally-owned and downtown served a smaller regional market. That model does not work today.

Nowadays, people want a greater variety of goods from stores and shop a lot more often. Shoehorning that kind of retail into downtown would destroy it whether or not people parked and walked to the stores.

Trying to pull the old downtown way of thinking onto Hanes Mall Blvd, where land is more plentiful and there is no economic incentive to encourage density would just cost retailers and developers more money with no real benefit to business.

I'm not advocating putting a grid on Hanes Mall Blvd. Like Transitman, I would be in favor of demolishing it all. I would also argue that your post makes assumptions that are not necessarily based in fact. The model of the urban, locally-owned retail and national chain shopping does work today. It exists throughout New York, Washington, DC, Boston, Chicago, San Francisco, etc. Companies like Target and Home Depot have developed urban models that exist side-by-side with chain boutiques, local stores, restaurants, etc. And, there is an economic incentive to the taxpayers to encourage density. By clamping down on sprawl and encouraging density, the city does not have to pay to extend the infrastructure out to every new subdivision and strip mall thereby providing more greenspace and limiting pollution.

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I'm not advocating putting a grid on Hanes Mall Blvd. Like Transitman, I would be in favor of demolishing it all. I would also argue that your post makes assumptions that are not necessarily based in fact. The model of the urban, locally-owned retail and national chain shopping does work today. It exists throughout New York, Washington, DC, Boston, Chicago, San Francisco, etc. Companies like Target and Home Depot have developed urban models that exist side-by-side with chain boutiques, local stores, restaurants, etc. And, there is an economic incentive to the taxpayers to encourage density. By clamping down on sprawl and encouraging density, the city does not have to pay to extend the infrastructure out to every new subdivision and strip mall thereby providing more greenspace and limiting pollution.

I'm sorry, but the only citeis you mentioned where a model urban retail mix exists are New York, Chicago and San Francisco. Washington, DC and Boston are each losing large department stores in their center cores by the end of this year with no replacement in sight, and besides, they had large stores, wide streets and developoable land in their center cities to begin with.

Winston-Salem's largest store back in the day may have been Sears with around 100,000 square feet of selling space, but thet is actually off the main downtown grid and was designed as a suburban type store with a rather large parking lot on its roof, mostly because land at the time was (and still is) expensive and hard to get in downtown Winston.

The other large stores, including Davis, Belk-Stevens and Thalhimers, were about the size of a large modern supermarket but were stacked onto multiple levels to save space. Even if all these buildings still were available for retail use, they would be unsuited for the size and number of stores that people expect in moden retail.

To get the right mix downtown, as you describe it, would entail leveling most of downtown proper and replacing it woth new buildings and parking garages able to fit stores the size of Target and the like. In order to get it to work, you would be destroying downtown to build back downtown, which seems a little silly, expensive, and excessive, considering the amount of retail already in the city. Plus, it was already tried in the 1960s, to no great gain to the city, save for a couple of skyscrapers.

Just so you know, I'm not poo-pooing on your dreams for downtown retail. I think that there is a time and place for urban-style development. Whether that place is downtown Winston-Salem or the time is now is irrelevant to this conversation. My point is that it's not just about stacking up suburbia in a grid, because if it was, it would effectively kill what's trying to be saved. Cities are more than malls, they're long lasting, inventive, unique. one of the key criticisms of the "new" New York is that it's remarkably similar to Paramus in retail mix, except that you can't see your car from the door of the store.

Anybody that wants to pull off a project like redeveloping downtown as a retail center or drastically altering Hanes Mall Blvd for that matter, needs to realize that in order to give a new project of this stature legs, it's got to be about more than "It'll be pretty" or "It'll be 'sophisticated' " You have to present developers with a compelling reason to increase their costs and you have to convince consumers that all this rigamarole is worth their time. Otherwise, It'll never get past the conceptual stage or, in a worse scenario, if you build it, nobody will come.

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Well said Steven! :thumbsup: Plus think of all the money it would cost to demolish EVERYTHING on Hanes Mall Blvd. It's too preposterous! You know the definition of a boulevard is a tree lined street with gardens and trees in the middle. I'd like to see the DOT scrape up some of their last remaining few dollars and landscape this road tastefully and make it look really pleasant.

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I'd like to see the DOT scrape up some of their last remaining few dollars and landscape this road tastefully and make it look really pleasant.
As bad as some of NC's roads and bridges are right now, seriously-I would certainly hope that the DOT would not spend money on landscaping any more than is nessessary. Sounds like a project for the developers to chip into, not taxpayers. I am tired of pot holes and roads that are crumbling.

That was the mindset where people didn't shop as much, stores were smaller and locally-owned and downtown served a smaller regional market. That model does not work today.

Nowadays, people want a greater variety of goods from stores and shop a lot more often. Shoehorning that kind of retail into downtown would destroy it whether or not people parked and walked to the stores.

Trying to pull the old downtown way of thinking onto Hanes Mall Blvd, where land is more plentiful and there is no economic incentive to encourage density would just cost retailers and developers more money with no real benefit to business.

I agree with this. People and times are different.

Edited by ILoveCallingNCHome

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