Jacksonville's Rival City

[Charlotteman]

I've lived in Jax and Charlotte, and believe me, they are not in the same league to be rivals. Charlotte is on the verge of greatness.

I voted for Tampa, as the two cities have similar positive and negative Florida aspects.

[mwfsu84]

I'm a Jacksonville native who's visited Charlotte many times. Not sure where this 'Charlotte is on the verge of greatness' stuff is coming from, or why you feel that Jacksonville can't compete.

Jacksonville hosted a Super Bowl, and will again. Has Charlotte? Jacksonville was chosen (over Charlotte) to host the ACC Championship football game.

Unlike Charlotte, who's economy is heavily dependent on banking, Jacksonville's economy is more diversified, more immune to recession. Shipping and trasnportation, health care, finance and insurance, the military, all very important here. And all growing.

Yes, Jacksonville only has 3 Fortune 500 companies, but two of them came in the last two years. And Stein Mart and several other local firms are on the verge of moving into that category. But check the front page of the Atlanta Journal Constitution from a few weeks back. There's a rumor that Home Depot might be moving their headquarters to Jacksonville.

Speaking of growth, two of the three fastest-growing counties in the nation are in the Jax MSA (St. Johns and Clay). Flager County...which I believe is in top two or three, is just below St. Johns. Northeast Florida, with its cheap and plentiful land, benefits from the all the folks in Orlando, Tampa, and South Florida who are sick of the overcrowding.

Jacksonville's biggest problem, until recently, was a lack of initiative in developing its downtown. But that's changed too, as you can see from all the developments on this board.

[Charlotteman]

Isn't debate fun? heehee:)

I had great hopes for Jax when I lived there 1979-1995. The city had, and still has an enormous potential for greatness. But time after time, wonderful downtown projects were proposed, and time after time they fizzled out......It leads me to question whether any of these current proposals will actually come to fruition.

If even one gets built I will be surprised.

Since I left Jax in 1995 only a handful of downtown projects have been built. In that same time period Charlotte added to its skyline the IJL Tower, the Hearst Tower, Wachovia #3 Tower, AT&T building, Marriott Courtyard, Courtside Condominiums, Odell Building.

I realize Jax has two nice looking condo towers going up on the Riverwalk near the old Sheraton St.John's Place. That was a pleasant discovery:) And the proposed tall condo tower near the original Prudential Southbank tower will be stunning, if it is indeed built. The new Northbank hotel is great.

But when ya look at Uptown Charlotte, Wachovia Bank is constructing an $850 million dollar tower/condo/museum/university complex. It is thought that it will be anywhere from 46-80 floors. The Avenue condos are under construction-30 floors. Trademark condo tower is under construction at 17 floors. The Park condos--20 floors. 230 Tryon condos-thirteen floors. The Epicenter condo tower-51 floors.

Not broken ground yet is The Vue condo tower-50 floors. And Twelve, a 30-floor condo/hotel tower. Aloft Hotel-13 floors. But the piece-de-resistance is the upcoming Ritz Carlton Charlotte Hotel. Saks is looking at Charlotte closely.

I hope only the best for Jax, but I still stand by my earlier proclaimation that the two cities are not in the same league. Of course this is only my humble opinion:)

[mrh3]

I just love how other metro area's sleep on Raleigh-Durham simply because it doesn't have one big Dominate Downtown , Raleigh - Durham metro area is a little bigger than Nashville, and i know for a fact bigger than Jacksonville and growing much faster,i can't wait for the next U.S. CENSUS REPORT so folks can drop their jaws in disbelief!

I love your enthusiasm. Raleigh still kind of creeps me out though. It's very Old South. Not very cosmopolitan, not urban, not very sophisticated. Just not what I seek out in my travels.

[AuLukey]

I love your enthusiasm. Raleigh still kind of creeps me out though. It's very Old South. Not very cosmopolitan, not urban, not very sophisticated. Just not what I seek out in my travels.

Couldn't have said it better myself

[VistaLakes01]

First of all, Jacksonville, Tampa, Orlando and Miami are all huge boomtowns and really have nothing in common with the south. Over the past few years Jacksonville has been leaning more in to joining the rest of Florida. A lot of overflow from central and south Florida is spreading into Jax including the Latino influence on culture. Florida is the fastest growing state in the nation and Jax is feeling the impact of that. As for big skyscrapers in Charlotte, almost every state in the country's biggest city gets those projects first. Any other southern city (Atlanta excluded) is a joke compared to Miami and the projects in Tampa, Orlando, and Jacksonville. I believe you will be shocked at the next census. Also many of Jax's new projects are coming from developers in Florida, such as Cameron Kuhn who has had much success in Orlando, and all Florida cities are getting buildings built by Miami architects. We welcome Jacksonville (it's about time) in to the sisterhood of Florida cities......(the Jax and Orlando metro's are connecting with growth as well as the Orlando and Tampa metros) so basically the whole area is one big Florida powerhouse!!

[AuLukey]

As for big skyscrapers in Charlotte, almost every state in the country's biggest city gets those projects first.

I had to read this a couple times before I got what you were saying but I do have to disagree with this single point. In most cases you are correct only for the fact that every state normally only has one dominant city, it just works out that way. However, in states that have multiple large cities, this isn't always the case. In Charlotte's case (and not to be boosterish, I was afterall born in Jax,) it has two other metros in the same state that are nearly identical in size to its own. Yes, it is the largest, but not by a very large margin. The only other state where I can think of there being multiple metros of nearly the same size is Tennessee. Memphis (the city) is 100k larger than Nashville, yet Nashville is taller. Why is that? It's just wherever the investor says the right market is for their desired type of development or maybe where they own the most property. You add a nice building, the value of all your other properties skyrocket.

I see FL as being a very similar state in that there are several cities that share metros at their rims and are quite close economically and politically. This makes FL another example of a state that has a defined largest city but still gives room for growth in the other major metros as well. South Florida gets a great deal of retired buzzards, people that won out in the internet stock boom, and other get quick millionaires. That helps out a lot on their population figures, and also on their economy as those residents spend money. So of course development will go where the money is.

[VistaLakes01]

You have made some valid points and I tend to agree with you. I wasn't really aware that NC's other metro's are close in size to Charlotte. Charlotte metro is almost the exact same size as Orlando (2.1 million) which is where I live. Unfortunately in Orlando we have a strict FAA restriction on building heights that really sucks. Yet the city limits of Orlando is very small in comparison to Charlotte which has over 500,000 residents while we have about 230,000 residents. If Orlando's city limits covered the same area as Charlotte's then we would have around 400-500K population in the city. Orlando and Jacksonville are the only single city major metros in Florida. (Tampa-St. Pete-Clearwater) (Miami- Ft. Lauderdale- West Palm Beach.)Tampa metro is 2.6 million and Miami is 5.6 million. That's why I think Orlando and Jacksonville are more in-state rivals than any other metro. I don't think Charlotte is really that big of a rival with Jacksonville because Florida cities try to attract (besides business) tourism and wealthy retirees. I believe that Ponte Vedra Beach in Jacksonville is one of the nations wealthy enclaves. I know that Jacksonville (and now Tampa) envy Orlando from a retail point of view and I'm pretty sure Charlotte is lacking in that department although it is improving. In Orlando we have the beautiful upscale Mall of Millenia with Bloomingdales, Neiman Marcus, Crate & Barrell, Urban Outfitters and Macy's as anchors, with Tiffany & Co., Gucci, Cartier, Burberry, Hugo Boss, Kenneth Cole, Jimmy Choo, (see website) as well as PFChangs,Cheescake Factory, McCormick & Schmick, Brio, California Pizza Kitchen and Blue Martini. We also have another PFChangs, Brio, and Cheescake Factory in Winter Park, close to Downtown as well as the upscale Park Avenue shopping district in Winter Park. Our oldest mall, Orlando Fashion Square, is far from dead and has been beautifully remodeled with Macy's, Dillards, Sears, and JC Penney, and Premier 14 Cinemas as anchors. Our next oldest mall, Altamonte Mall is surrounded by a huge new town center developement called Uptown Altamonte with shops, restaurants, upscale lofts and high rise condos on a beautiful park on a lake. (Construction of high rise condos and offices are now being built in the Millenia area now as well as Florida's second IKEA store.) Then we have the HUGE Florida Mall which has Macy's, the South's only operating Lord & Taylor, Sak's 5th Ave, Nordstrom, Dillard's, Sears, and JC Penney and over 250 shops. Then there is West Oaks Mall which has Dillard's, Belk, Sears, JCPenney, and AMC Theaters as anchors. And then in the northern suburbs there is Seminole Towne Center with Macy's, Dillard's, Belk, Sears and JCPenney as anchors and Colonial Town Park lifestyle center with loft apartments and uspcale dining. Also in the eastern suburbs there is the south's largest lifestyle center, Waterford Lakes Town Center and under construction in the western suburbs is The Fowler Groves at Winter Garden which will be the same size as Waterford Lakes TC. Then newly opened in the southern suburbs is The Loop lifestyle center which is similar to Waterford Lakes. Also on the southside in Dr. Phillips suburb is the huge restaurant row which includes Samba Room, Timpano, Season's 52, Roy's, Ruth Chris Steakhouse, Morton's of Chicago to name a few. Plus all the huge resort hotels have their upscale dining with world famous chefs also. Another very upscale lifestyle center is under construction in my neighborhood (MetroWest)called Veranda Park, check out that website. And in the west (Clermont) area another upscale center is proposed called Bella Collina. And Orlando is the only city in Florida that is building high rise residential in the immediate CBD, besides all the new condo and loft construction in Downtown, Midtown, Uptown, Thornton Park, College Park, Winter Park, and Maitland. Then there are the tourist areas for shopping, dining and entertainment such as Downtown Disney (House of Blues, Coco Bongos) and Universal Citywalk (Emerils, Hard Rock Live.) Didn't really mean to go on but reading the Jacksonville newspaper (The Florida Times Union) they mention trying to emulate these things frequently and there is a lot of traffic from Jacksonville coming to Orlando to shop and dine. (Oh yeah, I forgot about the tremendous amount of Outlet shopping, including Simon's Orlando Premium Outlets.) I read in the Jacksonville press a lot of comparisons to Orlando from downtown developement to retail to conventions etc. That's why I feel Orlando is more of a rival to Jacksonville than any of the other cities mentioned. Of course Jax probably won't be able to keep up with Orlando and will end up more on the scale of a Charlotte probably. Of course Orlando has no NFL team but the city seems to be doing just fine without it. We have our little NBA Majic that we are trying to hold on to and need to get on the ball with a new arena which is finally starting to happen. And we are finally getting a new Performing Arts Center and a renovated Citrus Bowl. We may not have the skyline or the NFL but we are very close to Miami and Atlanta when it comes to shopping and dining. And we are getting closer to mass transit. I'm not meaning to rag on any other city, just don't know if everyone is aware of what Orlando has to offer besides theme parks and no fortune 500 company! (We may have one Fortune 500, not sure.) Thanks for listening!!

[krazeeboi]

Any other southern city (Atlanta excluded) is a joke compared to Miami and the projects in Tampa, Orlando, and Jacksonville.

Now Miami I can see (the place is like a mini Dubai these days), but the projects I've seen proposed or under construction in Tampa, Orlando, and Jacksonville are not unlike many others I see throughout the South. What is the basis for this statement? Are you familiar with projects proposed/under construction in other major Southern cities?

[Pillsbury]

I love your enthusiasm. Raleigh still kind of creeps me out though. It's very Old South. Not very cosmopolitan, not urban, not very sophisticated. Just not what I seek out in my travels.

Yeah, what a backwoods hick place!!! I mean it is only one of the most educated places in America.

[bulldogger]

Yeah, what a backwoods hick place!!! I mean it is only one of the most educated places in America.

Isn't Duke there? I was there a few years ago, but just for a day. If I remember correctly, it had a decent medical district and there was a huge art facility that blows away anything in my area (Orlando). We in Orlando are just now getting an arts facility and nowhere near the scale of the one Raleigh had.

[krazeeboi]

Duke is in Durham. Raleigh has North Carolina State.

[bulldogger]

Duke is in Durham. Raleigh has North Carolina State.

That whole triangle thingy.

[AuLukey]

That whole triangle thingy.

Well, the Triangle actually has more than just Duke and NC State. There's also Chapel Hill (aka Carolina or UNC) and Meredith (one of the nation's most prestigious all girls private schools.)

Charlotte's metro does have a few notable schools, but none quite yet on the caliber of the Triangle's. UNC Charlotte, the Charlotte Research Institute, Johnson and Wales University (culinary arts school,) Davidson College, CPCC (2nd largest community college in the nation,) the Wake Forest College of Business, the North Carolina Research Campus now under construction, and the Charlotte School of Law set to begin classes sometime this year or next. And USC has plans of opening a business college in Charlotte as well. Charlotte has a ways to go education wise, but it may someday catch the Triangle because its strong business ties. I better stop before I get too into Charlotte's pros and cons.

Wester, that's a lot of info on Orlando, and I can say, I pretty much expected that much from Orlando. A city that thrives on tourism would have to have a strong retail base, it only makes sense. Charlotte's metro is the home of the largest tourist attraction in NC (which is sadly a mega-mall,) a theme park, and there is a huge draw for NASCAR tourism as well: Charlotte has Lowes Motor Speedway (probably the second most famous track, only to Daytona) and just recently won the NASCAR Hall of Fame over Atlanta and Daytona.

And also, not to bash your boosterism, but Charlotte also has nearly every store (presently and announced) you just listed that are in Orlando. Ever city has its niche, but I would hardly list shopping malls as a measure to brag on a city.

Jacksonville is a bigger big business city than Orlando. They are similar in that they don't share their metros with other large cities; however, their economies are completely different in the grand scheme. You make good points about their similarities, but I would class Orlando with cities like Las Vegas that rely a little more heavily on tourism. Jax fits more into the same class of cities like Charlotte & Atlanta. They are more business economy driven than anything. They all three have their strong tourism aspects, but that's only a smaller percentage of their overall economies. Charlotte has racing, Atlanta has Coke and the aquarium, Jax has its beaches and its historical and cultural tourism like St Augustine. The major thing that would set Jax away from CLT and ATL is the port. To that I have little comparison to other than cities like Houston and cities in NE. Of most cities in the south, Jacksonville may be one of the most resistant to recessions of one form or another. If tourism drops, it will survive; if the stock market bottoms out, it will survive; if for some strange reason shipping were to dry out, it would still survive. It is very versatile, and for that reason, it has a very bright future. The numbers aren't there because the retirement and immigration population isn't moving there in droves quite like most any other city south of Daytona. When that trend finally dries, Jacksonville will become more dominant. It just needs something to really spark its growth in its core is all.

[VistaLakes01]

Well, the Triangle actually has more than just Duke and NC State. There's also Chapel Hill (aka Carolina or UNC) and Meredith (one of the nation's most prestigious all girls private schools.)

Charlotte's metro does have a few notable schools, but none quite yet on the caliber of the Triangle's. UNC Charlotte, the Charlotte Research Institute, Johnson and Wales University (culinary arts school,) Davidson College, CPCC (2nd largest community college in the nation,) the Wake Forest College of Business, the North Carolina Research Campus now under construction, and the Charlotte School of Law set to begin classes sometime this year or next. And USC has plans of opening a business college in Charlotte as well. Charlotte has a ways to go education wise, but it may someday catch the Triangle because its strong business ties. I better stop before I get too into Charlotte's pros and cons.

Wester, that's a lot of info on Orlando, and I can say, I pretty much expected that much from Orlando. A city that thrives on tourism would have to have a strong retail base, it only makes sense. Charlotte's metro is the home of the largest tourist attraction in NC (which is sadly a mega-mall,) a theme park, and there is a huge draw for NASCAR tourism as well: Charlotte has Lowes Motor Speedway (probably the second most famous track, only to Daytona) and just recently won the NASCAR Hall of Fame over Atlanta and Daytona.

And also, not to bash your boosterism, but Charlotte also has nearly every store (presently and announced) you just listed that are in Orlando. Ever city has its niche, but I would hardly list shopping malls as a measure to brag on a city.

Jacksonville is a bigger big business city than Orlando. They are similar in that they don't share their metros with other large cities; however, their economies are completely different in the grand scheme. You make good points about their similarities, but I would class Orlando with cities like Las Vegas that rely a little more heavily on tourism. Jax fits more into the same class of cities like Charlotte & Atlanta. They are more business economy driven than anything. They all three have their strong tourism aspects, but that's only a smaller percentage of their overall economies. Charlotte has racing, Atlanta has Coke and the aquarium, Jax has its beaches and its historical and cultural tourism like St Augustine. The major thing that would set Jax away from CLT and ATL is the port. To that I have little comparison to other than cities like Houston and cities in NE. Of most cities in the south, Jacksonville may be one of the most resistant to recessions of one form or another. If tourism drops, it will survive; if the stock market bottoms out, it will survive; if for some strange reason shipping were to dry out, it would still survive. It is very versatile, and for that reason, it has a very bright future. The numbers aren't there because the retirement and immigration population isn't moving there in droves quite like most any other city south of Daytona. When that trend finally dries, Jacksonville will become more dominant. It just needs something to really spark its growth in its core is all.

I tend to agree with you to some degree, except that the fact that Orlando's economy is more diverse that most realize. The head of economics at UF stated in the year 2000 that for nearly 30 years Orlando has lived in the shadow of Disney, but for the first time in as many years, Disney is now in the shadow of Orlando. I don't know if the same can be said for gambling in Las Vegas at this time. It makes sense that a metro area with over 2,000,000+ residents wouldn't have much more driving it, especially when the average income is pretty much even with the national average and higher. I remember growing up and through the years when at least several people in your circle of friends worked in a tourist related job. Now the majority in Orlando look at Disney the same as most other Florida residents, a destination close by in the state. The large majority of people employed in that industry are immigrants from the Caribean, Central America and Asia. Disney still starts it's employees at around $7.00 per hour. Orlando would not be one of the fastest growing metro's in the nation based on that wage. The huge employment centers in Maitland, Lake Mary/Heathrow, Lee Vista, University Research Park (UCF is now the second largest university in the state of Florida and expected to be the largest within the next 15-20 years, maybe sooner with the addition of the new medical school.) The two main hospitals in Orlando, Florida Hosp and ORMC rank in the top 10 in the nation, with ORMC having one of the nations top trauma centers and Florida Hopsital tops in cardiovascular care. All new roads proposed and being built serve to bring commuters in to central Orange county and Seminole county. Rush hour traffic backs up in all directions heading IN to the city, not away from it. I am in the brokerage industry and none of my peers spend the day talking about Disney,etc, it seems as distant from us as it would if we were in Charlotte. It's pretty sad that people in other cities seem to think that Orlando residents have some sort of connection with Disney or tourism. Miami is a city of international business and is also a large tourist destination, as is New York, San Francisco, Los Angeles, London, etc. When Orlando reaches 3,000,000 does the rest of the world think that most of us will be located here because of tourism? And if you were to walk through The Mall at Millenia, do you think the crowds in the trendy dress are tourists? We don't hang where the tourists hang, that is taboo, and we all know how tourists dress in Central Florida. And Millenia is not full of screaming children. Blue Martini is a popular hangout for locals. Whenever a business is being courted to move to Florida, Orlando has it's hat in the ring a long with the other Florida cities and often wins. That is why I say Orlando and Jax are rivals, we go after the same businesses. And sorry, there is no Bloomingdales in Charlotte, in the southeast only Miami. Orlando, Atlanta. No IKEA in North Carolina, the next location in the South after Sunrise is Orlando. I know the tenant lineup by the Rouse Co. And upscale mall developer The Taubman Company bases it's tenant lineup on the median income in a 15 mile radius of their centers and if you look at the tenant lineup at Millenia compared to Charlotte's Northlake, Northlake has a very average tenant lineup, very similar to an average mall in this area. I'm sorry but I base a lot on how I rate a city based on retail, fashion and trendiness. I now that's what many view favorably about Miami and Atlanta. It shows the success of the region. In "Places Rated" cities get extra points for having a Bloomingdales and certain other retailers as well as the number of Starbucks per person. As well as park space, bike trails, mass transit, downtown foot traffic. There are many different types of skylines, some are based on height, some on density, but the main issue is how functional is a city center for its residents.

[VistaLakes01]

Well, the Triangle actually has more than just Duke and NC State. There's also Chapel Hill (aka Carolina or UNC) and Meredith (one of the nation's most prestigious all girls private schools.)

Charlotte's metro does have a few notable schools, but none quite yet on the caliber of the Triangle's. UNC Charlotte, the Charlotte Research Institute, Johnson and Wales University (culinary arts school,) Davidson College, CPCC (2nd largest community college in the nation,) the Wake Forest College of Business, the North Carolina Research Campus now under construction, and the Charlotte School of Law set to begin classes sometime this year or next. And USC has plans of opening a business college in Charlotte as well. Charlotte has a ways to go education wise, but it may someday catch the Triangle because its strong business ties. I better stop before I get too into Charlotte's pros and cons.

Wester, that's a lot of info on Orlando, and I can say, I pretty much expected that much from Orlando. A city that thrives on tourism would have to have a strong retail base, it only makes sense. Charlotte's metro is the home of the largest tourist attraction in NC (which is sadly a mega-mall,) a theme park, and there is a huge draw for NASCAR tourism as well: Charlotte has Lowes Motor Speedway (probably the second most famous track, only to Daytona) and just recently won the NASCAR Hall of Fame over Atlanta and Daytona.

And also, not to bash your boosterism, but Charlotte also has nearly every store (presently and announced) you just listed that are in Orlando. Ever city has its niche, but I would hardly list shopping malls as a measure to brag on a city.

Jacksonville is a bigger big business city than Orlando. They are similar in that they don't share their metros with other large cities; however, their economies are completely different in the grand scheme. You make good points about their similarities, but I would class Orlando with cities like Las Vegas that rely a little more heavily on tourism. Jax fits more into the same class of cities like Charlotte & Atlanta. They are more business economy driven than anything. They all three have their strong tourism aspects, but that's only a smaller percentage of their overall economies. Charlotte has racing, Atlanta has Coke and the aquarium, Jax has its beaches and its historical and cultural tourism like St Augustine. The major thing that would set Jax away from CLT and ATL is the port. To that I have little comparison to other than cities like Houston and cities in NE. Of most cities in the south, Jacksonville may be one of the most resistant to recessions of one form or another. If tourism drops, it will survive; if the stock market bottoms out, it will survive; if for some strange reason shipping were to dry out, it would still survive. It is very versatile, and for that reason, it has a very bright future. The numbers aren't there because the retirement and immigration population isn't moving there in droves quite like most any other city south of Daytona. When that trend finally dries, Jacksonville will become more dominant. It just needs something to really spark its growth in its core is all.

Well, the Triangle actually has more than just Duke and NC State. There's also Chapel Hill (aka Carolina or UNC) and Meredith (one of the nation's most prestigious all girls private schools.)

Charlotte's metro does have a few notable schools, but none quite yet on the caliber of the Triangle's. UNC Charlotte, the Charlotte Research Institute, Johnson and Wales University (culinary arts school,) Davidson College, CPCC (2nd largest community college in the nation,) the Wake Forest College of Business, the North Carolina Research Campus now under construction, and the Charlotte School of Law set to begin classes sometime this year or next. And USC has plans of opening a business college in Charlotte as well. Charlotte has a ways to go education wise, but it may someday catch the Triangle because its strong business ties. I better stop before I get too into Charlotte's pros and cons.

Wester, that's a lot of info on Orlando, and I can say, I pretty much expected that much from Orlando. A city that thrives on tourism would have to have a strong retail base, it only makes sense. Charlotte's metro is the home of the largest tourist attraction in NC (which is sadly a mega-mall,) a theme park, and there is a huge draw for NASCAR tourism as well: Charlotte has Lowes Motor Speedway (probably the second most famous track, only to Daytona) and just recently won the NASCAR Hall of Fame over Atlanta and Daytona.

And also, not to bash your boosterism, but Charlotte also has nearly every store (presently and announced) you just listed that are in Orlando. Ever city has its niche, but I would hardly list shopping malls as a measure to brag on a city.

Jacksonville is a bigger big business city than Orlando. They are similar in that they don't share their metros with other large cities; however, their economies are completely different in the grand scheme. You make good points about their similarities, but I would class Orlando with cities like Las Vegas that rely a little more heavily on tourism. Jax fits more into the same class of cities like Charlotte & Atlanta. They are more business economy driven than anything. They all three have their strong tourism aspects, but that's only a smaller percentage of their overall economies. Charlotte has racing, Atlanta has Coke and the aquarium, Jax has its beaches and its historical and cultural tourism like St Augustine. The major thing that would set Jax away from CLT and ATL is the port. To that I have little comparison to other than cities like Houston and cities in NE. Of most cities in the south, Jacksonville may be one of the most resistant to recessions of one form or another. If tourism drops, it will survive; if the stock market bottoms out, it will survive; if for some strange reason shipping were to dry out, it would still survive. It is very versatile, and for that reason, it has a very bright future. The numbers aren't there because the retirement and immigration population isn't moving there in droves quite like most any other city south of Daytona. When that trend finally dries, Jacksonville will become more dominant. It just needs something to really spark its growth in its core is all.

[VistaLakes01]

I guess come to think of it, maybe Jacksonville isn't as big of a rival with Orlando as previously thought. I mainly got the idea from the Jax media and their wishlist for things "Orlando." I definetly wouldn't say Charlotte was a rival either, since Charlotte is ranking up their with the amenities that Tampa and Orlando have. I was under the impression that a lot has been going on in Jax in the past couple of years, reading these threads and the Jax news. I would say Jax is more on the lines of an Indianapolis (not in the south) but similar in size and growth, and pretty dull. The fact that Jax didn't have enough hotel rooms to host the super bowl and had to bring in cruise ships should be some indication that a lot more work needs to be done. The potential is there and I know that a lot of Puerto Rican friends of mine here in Orlando have moved or have friends or relatives that have moved to Jax. Aslo, my roomate is Puerto Rican and several of his friends have moved to the Carolinas (and he is looking to move to Charlotte or Chattanooga), both cities where friends of his have located recently. So there is an immigrant thing happening. Have a good day....( I won't go snooping in to the Jax forum anymore, guess I'm an outsider, I'll have to stick with Orlando and Tampa)

[AuLukey]

And sorry, there is no Bloomingdales in Charlotte, in the southeast only Miami. Orlando, Atlanta. No IKEA in North Carolina, the next location in the South after Sunrise is Orlando. I know the tenant lineup by the Rouse Co. And upscale mall developer The Taubman Company bases it's tenant lineup on the median income in a 15 mile radius of their centers and if you look at the tenant lineup at Millenia compared to Charlotte's Northlake, Northlake has a very average tenant lineup, very similar to an average mall in this area. I'm sorry but I base a lot on how I rate a city based on retail, fashion and trendiness. I now that's what many view favorably about Miami and Atlanta. It shows the success of the region. In "Places Rated" cities get extra points for having a Bloomingdales and certain other retailers as well as the number of Starbucks per person. As well as park space, bike trails, mass transit, downtown foot traffic. There are many different types of skylines, some are based on height, some on density, but the main issue is how functional is a city center for its residents.

Haha, I'm more and more realizing that this conversation has little to do with Jax so I'll try to keep on subject a little more than I have previously.

One note, Northlake is a new mall, but is not the premier mall in Charlotte, nor is it second in line, probably third. There isn't a Bloomingdales and IKEA is almost boycotted in NC because of the enormous furniture industry coming from the mountains and foothills of NC. The state tends to not welcome foreign furniture companies. I have heard talks of IKEA coming to Charlotte, but that isn't really a huge deal. As for Bloomingdales, I'm not sure why it isn't in CLT, but oh well.

I completely agree about the functionality of a city's center for its citizens. That is why Charlotte and Jax are very similar from a city perspective in that their cores are just now gearing more towards their citizens rather than their businesses. Downtown condos have only recently become popular again in many cities across the nation, CLT and JAX not being exceptions. Orlando is very similar, and I did not mean to suggest Orlando was solely driven by tourism but that it is undeniably a big part of its identity. Vegas has had the boom outside of tourism lately that Orlando has seen, so it is just as diverse by those measures. In fact, it is the fastest growing major metro in the US, Charlotte is second. I would hope, however, that Orlando's businesses were not only driven by Disney or Universal. If that were the case and those companies saw hard times, then the whole city would theoretically shut down. That would not be good. However, if comparing cities by number of tourists per year, I would bet that Orlando would easily make the top ten, if not the top five. It isn't ranked, but it is on the list of Wikipedia's top tourism cities in the US along with Miami. What I find interesting is that Orlando is noted to have beaches as an attraction? odd.

While Jax and Orlando do have a lot of common, as I said before, I would not put them in the same category. Orlando is the 2nd largest city in the country for number of hotel rooms. That also says a lot about a city. I'm not even sure Jax would make a list of the top 50.

[VistaLakes01]

Please read the rules. Do not post newspaper articles on this site

[otowntiger]

Charlotte

Not sure why you guys are so infatuated with Charlotte and other bigger cities. I think your closest rival on a lot of fronts is your closest large neighbor to the south- Orlando. Orlando is bigger than Jax and the fastest growing in the state. Look out. From a stand point of cultural attractions, visitors, economic growth and progressive ideas like light rail (recently approved to begin) Orlando is ahead of Jax in my opinion.

[BHCav]

Not sure why you guys are so infatuated with Charlotte and other bigger cities. I think your closest rival on a lot of fronts is your closest large neighbor to the south- Orlando. Orlando is bigger than Jax and the fastest growing in the state. Look out. From a stand point of cultural attractions, visitors, economic growth and progressive ideas like light rail (recently approved to begin) Orlando is ahead of Jax in my opinion.

Folks probably won't admit to it but it may have to do with the Jags and Panthers coming into the NFL the same year. Naturally a rivalry was spawned from this on some degree.

Another reason may be because of UP itself. These forums have somewhat of a slant towards Charlotte and this may impact poster's perception.

Just my $.02.

[AuLukey]

Folks probably won't admit to it but it may have to do with the Jags and Panthers coming into the NFL the same year. Naturally a rivalry was spawned from this on some degree.

I actually believe that their second season was the root of the sports rivalry between the two cities. They both made it to the NFC/AFC championship games and were predicted by many to play each other in the superbowl. It was a big letdown when both teams lost. Every year when there is a postseason game between the two teams it seems to be a bigger deal than even some regular season games (when both teams are of modest skill at least.) When it comes to the Panthers, I think more people have it out for the Patriots now as the two teams have a growing rivalry ever since the last minute field goal to win in the super bowl three years back.

As for the UP sway towards Charlotte, I agree completely. Charlotte is much more outspoken on this forum than in real life and sometimes can be a little over-represented. Even considering that, my opinion still stands as it is. Having been raised in and around Jacksonville and moving to Charlotte in 94, I continually watch the two cities and compare them. So, to me, the two cities have been rivals since the moment I found out Charlotte existed (which was sadly just before I found out I was moving here.) Since I haven't lived in Jax in over a decade, I'm sure the attitudes have changes towards who the rival city is.

Charlotteans, in general, have a huge inferiorty complex when it comes to Atlanta. So I believe that it's rival is more Atlanta than anything. So, to be a true "rival" wouldn't the rivalry have to go both ways? So, by that definition, do people in Orlando consider themselves rivals to Jax, Tampa, or Miami?

[BHCav]

I actually believe that their second season was the root of the sports rivalry between the two cities. They both made it to the NFC/AFC championship games and were predicted by many to play each other in the superbowl. It was a big letdown when both teams lost. Every year when there is a postseason game between the two teams it seems to be a bigger deal than even some regular season games (when both teams are of modest skill at least.) When it comes to the Panthers, I think more people have it out for the Patriots now as the two teams have a growing rivalry ever since the last minute field goal to win in the super bowl three years back.

As for the UP sway towards Charlotte, I agree completely. Charlotte is much more outspoken on this forum than in real life and sometimes can be a little over-represented. Even considering that, my opinion still stands as it is. Having been raised in and around Jacksonville and moving to Charlotte in 94, I continually watch the two cities and compare them. So, to me, the two cities have been rivals since the moment I found out Charlotte existed (which was sadly just before I found out I was moving here.) Since I haven't lived in Jax in over a decade, I'm sure the attitudes have changes towards who the rival city is.

Charlotteans, in general, have a huge inferiorty complex when it comes to Atlanta. So I believe that it's rival is more Atlanta than anything. So, to be a true "rival" wouldn't the rivalry have to go both ways? So, by that definition, do people in Orlando consider themselves rivals to Jax, Tampa, or Miami?

Also, both teams played each other in their first pre-season game in Canton, OH.

I don't remember who I voted for but I can see the arguement for Nashville, Orlando, and Charlotte.

[RALBOI]

I love your enthusiasm. Raleigh still kind of creeps me out though. It's very Old South. Not very cosmopolitan, not urban, not very sophisticated. Just not what I seek out in my travels.

I respect your view, but you do know that the reason were growing so fast is because tons of sophisticated and cosmopolitan folks like yourself are moving to the Triangle in record numbers not just for good jobs and schools, but because it's one of the best place to live in America!!!!!

[RALBOI]

Couldn't have said it better myself

Talk about backstabbing! aussie luke your something else, I guess you don't like the fact that The Triangle will most likely outgrow your beloved Charlotte also in the near future ,thanks for the support my fellow North Carolinian!!!!!!!!!