Jacksonville's Rival City

[derrickskugler]

Please take your inbred fighting back to the NC boards. :->

But please, the triangle will not catch Charlotte. Those two areas are in different leagues.

[AuLukey]

Talk about backstabbing, aussie luke your something else, I guess you don't like the fact that The Triangle will be bigger than Charlotte also in the near future ,thanks for the support my fellow North Carolinian.

You know I just like giving you a hard time.

[RALBOI]

You know I just like giving you a hard time.

I know!

[krazeeboi]

But please, the triangle will not catch Charlotte. Those two areas are in different leagues.

It might take some time, but I could see it happening.

I think that when you have a state which has two or more similarly-sized cities, those cities tend to compete more with each other than with outside cities. For example, while you could make a case for Atlanta being Houston's rival, I'm sure Dallas is its true rival on a more day-to-day basis. I could conceive of Pittsburgh being Cleveland's rival, but in all probability it competes more with Cincinatti and Columbus. St. Louis may name Cincinatti as a rival, but that Kansas City-St. Louis rivalry is almost dangerous. And so on. So I'd probably say that Jacksonville competes much more with Orlando and Tampa than with cities too far away to register on the radar on a consistent basis, like Charlotte and Nashville.

[RALBOI]

Please take your inbred fighting back to the NC boards. :->

But please, the triangle will not catch Charlotte. Those two areas are in different leagues.

Nice try derricksckugler! , but please do some research before you make blanket false statments.

[derrickskugler]

Research was done... just because you want the Triangle to rival Charlotte doesn't mean in reality it does.

Charlotte: 2.125 million

Raleigh: 1.509 million

Charlotte: 109 high rises

Raleigh: 40 high rises

Charlotte's Tallest: 871 feet

Raleigh's Tallest: 431 feet

This shows that Charlotte has over 25% more population, almost 3 times the number of high-rises and it's tallest building is more than twice as tall as Raleigh's.

Raleigh isn't the metro that Charlotte is, nor will it be anytime soon. Raleigh, other than population, really isn't the metro that Jacksonville or Nashville is, either. It's a 3rd tier southern city.

Some good examples (I know a few are left out, this was a quick list)

1st Tier: Atlanta, Dallas, Houston, Miami

2nd Tier: Tampa, Charlotte, Orlando, Nashville, Jacksonville, Memphis

3rd Tier: Raleigh, Birmingham, Greenville, Chattanooga

[AuLukey]

This shows that Charlotte has over 25% more population, almost 3 times the number of high-rises and it's tallest building is more than twice as tall as Raleigh's.

Raleigh isn't the metro that Charlotte is, nor will it be anytime soon. Raleigh, other than population, really isn't the metro that Jacksonville or Nashville is, either. It's a 3rd tier southern city.

Some good examples (I know a few are left out, this was a quick list)

1st Tier: Atlanta, Dallas, Houston, Miami

2nd Tier: Tampa, Charlotte, Orlando, Nashville, Jacksonville, Memphis

3rd Tier: Raleigh, Birmingham, Greenville, Chattanooga

While the Ral-Char debate really belongs in another thread, I do have to point out to you one exception to the taller is better rule that pretty much destroys that idea: Washington, D.C. is inarguably one of our largest cities (metro) yet doesn't have a tower in site.

On a national scale, the tier system you have worked out is a little flawed. Cities like Charlotte, Orlando, and those you listed in 2nd tier are on a fine line to even be that high nationally and could go either way. Out of those cities (and not being boosterish) Charlotte and Tampa are really the only 2nd tiers from that list. I agree with those figures if you are using southern cities as the definition behind the tiers though and not a national scale.

Wow, anyway, back to the subject at hand. I have to agree with what has been said, intrastate rivalries are usually much bigger deals as that is usually due to the inferiority complex of the smaller city (a.k.a. Raleigh .) However, in Charlotte's case, I believe people there aim more at Atlanta as it is the closest larger city. And I'm sure that Jax has several cities it compares itself to, Atlanta included. However, as for a rival, I'm starting to think more and more about Orlando and Tampa given their similarities to Jax. Being of Jacksonville's size and still being the fourth largest is probably a hard figure to swallow. I wouldn't doubt if it were the same way in Texas or California (the only other two states I can think of with more than three large cities.)

[krazeeboi]

1st Tier: Atlanta, Dallas, Houston, Miami

2nd Tier: Tampa, Charlotte, Orlando, Nashville, Jacksonville, Memphis

3rd Tier: Raleigh, Birmingham, Greenville, Chattanooga

As was stated earlier, highrises are irrelevant. DC alone proves that.

Now, as fas as this third tier goes, how can you list three CSAs with populations over 1 million, then list Chattanooga, whose CSA is only at 650K?

I consider Raleigh to be in a half-tier below Charlotte. It's really hard to classify, because if you go by metro area, you also have to take Durham into account (and Chapel Hill in regards to CSA). If you're just going by city population, it's a bit of a different ballgame. In that respect, Birmingham is the only true peer city out of the bunch.

OK, we're seriously off-topic here, but oh well.

[derrickskugler]

Yes, the random tiers I came up with were for the south, only... not the nation. Hope that helps clear things up. :->

[krazeeboi]

OK. Chattanooga still doesn't belong in the 3rd tier though.

[RALBOI]

Research was done... just because you want the Triangle to rival Charlotte doesn't mean in reality it does.

Charlotte: 2.125 million

Raleigh: 1.509 million

Charlotte: 109 high rises

Raleigh: 40 high rises

Charlotte's Tallest: 871 feet

Raleigh's Tallest: 431 feet

This shows that Charlotte has over 25% more population, almost 3 times the number of high-rises and it's tallest building is more than twice as tall as Raleigh's.

Raleigh isn't the metro that Charlotte is, nor will it be anytime soon. Raleigh, other than population, really isn't the metro that Jacksonville or Nashville is, either. It's a 3rd tier southern city.

Some good examples (I know a few are left out, this was a quick list)

1st Tier: Atlanta, Dallas, Houston, Miami

2nd Tier: Tampa, Charlotte, Orlando, Nashville, Jacksonville, Memphis

3rd Tier: Raleigh, Birmingham, Greenville, Chattanooga

Bravo! Mr. derrickskugler you've gone from false to misleading a step up for you, but if you want to compare a CSA to a MSA then yes your right as far population but hardly fair, as far as tall buildings go Charlotte folks have aready explained that to you, basicaly the number of tall buildings don't make the city Washington D.C. prove's this, and if you go their then JAX would be considered a 3rd tier also because that skyline is nothing to sing about and another thing sense you have managed to pull this forum off topic I have great respect for Charlotte, because yes they have set the bar for North Carolina and a high standard one at that, but it's also one that the Triangle will take even Higher and also let me state my position clearly about this as a city Charlotte has no equal in North or South Carolina, but when you Factor in the Metro area as ahole then things are different, Triangle easily compare's when all things considered like college's,Medical school's ,law school's ,Highest workforce with degree's,highest per capita income, always in the top 5 for best place to live or for business and even for singles looking to get married, STATE CAPITAL,RTP first major league ChampionShip for both Carolina's, man the list goes on and final comment's on this thing and scope. Charlotte will always be the biggest city the Carolina's but the Triangle will one day be the biggest Metro Area in the future to come in North Carolina and for Jacksonville we have already blown pass you guys, where growing at a much faster rate and we have too many assets too play second fiddle to any metro in the South and another thing, Charlotte has blown you guys away also, and you are not their Rival,because your metro Area is to small now , your being outpaced by every other metro in the south, like I said .I can't wait for the new Census report ,so some people can just shut up

[VistaLakes01]

Bravo! Mr. derrickskugler you've gone from false to misleading a step up for you, but if you want to compare a CSA to a MSA then yes your right as far population but hardly fair, as far as tall buildings go Charlotte folks have aready explained that to you, basicaly the number of tall buildings don't make the city Washington D.C. prove's this, and if you go their then JAX would be considered a 3rd tier also because that skyline is nothing to sing about and another thing sense you have managed to pull this forum off topic I have great respect for Charlotte because yes they have set the bar for North Carolina and a high standard one at that, but it's also one that the Triangle will take even Higher and also let me state my position clearly about this as a city Charlotte has no equal in North or South Carolina, but when you Factor in the Metro area as ahole then things are different, Triangle easily compare's when all things considered like college's,Medical school's ,law school's ,Highest workforce with degree's,highest per capita income, always in the top 5 for best place to live or for business and even for singles looking to get married, STATE CAPITAL,RTP first major league ChampionShip for both Carolina's man the list goes on and final comment's on this thing and scope. Charlotte will always be the biggest city the Carolina's but the Triangle will one day be the biggest Metro Area in the future to come in North Carolina and for Jacksonville we have aready blown pass you guys, where growing at a much faster rate and we have too many assets too play second fiddle to any metro in the South and another thing Charlotte has blown you guys away also and you are not their Rival,because your metro Area is to small now ,because your being outpaced by every other metro in the south, like I said I can't wait for the new Census report so some people can just shut up

Since I'm not sure if there are certain companies or business that Charlotte and Jacksonville have competed for, that could be a reason why so many think they are rivals. But it probably really is just the football thing because I'm sure neither city actually realized the other existed before that, pretty much like when Orlando and Charlotte got their NBA teams. Orlando barely through their hat in the ring for the NFL expansion, mainly because there was too many other projects that were being focused on at that time, the convention business in which Orlando and Vegas were rivals at that time. Orlando as a city didn't really have the financial clout at that time and Orange county wasn't going to cooperate and most people here feel that Orlando is just too close to Tampa to be considered and Tampa included Orlando in its fan base draw when they got the Bucs. However when a business is looking to Florida, there are certain key factors that are put in to play that put Tampa, Orlando and Jax and now West Palm in the same realm. Now even Port St. Lucie is throwing itself in to the ring to compete for business with these other much larger Florida metros. I'm sure from a transportation perspective, statewide competition comes in to play more than other cities such as Charlotte. Tampa, Orlando, and Jacksonville have all been working within the state to get commuter rail, light rail and high speed rail in to their metro areas. Last week commuter rail became a reality in Orlando, with the govenor in town to sign off on it. That one issue there would prove a rivalry issue for all three metros (TPA, JAX, Orlando) and the feelings in the cities that didn't obtain it is one of disappointment which would score points for Orlando in the rivalry department. There are many state issues that we compete for and try to accomplish because we know that Florida has the population to create another "Miami" and basically that's what these three Florida's strive to be, the state's next "Miami!" When Jax got the NFL, Orlando was in shock and we thought, damn, we should have really tried for this! Jax has nowhere near the television market numbers or even the 100 mile population desired radius. But it is rapidly growing in to it. In 1980 Metro Jax was larger than Orlando with over 800,000 and Orlando was around 725,000. Metro Jacksonville's current population 1.3 million is Orlando's 1994 population and Orlando has rapidly pulled away from Jax with Orlando now almost a million more (2.1 million) in 2005. So when you are speaking of tiers, I don't believe the two would be considered in the same tier. Just as it's said Charlotte is looking towards Atlanta, Tampa and Orlando seem to be looking more towards Miami, with Jacksonville looking toward Orlando and Tampa and wanting to be in the "new Miami" race. Florida just really isn't in the southern region, it's the worlds 13th largest economy. I think most of us here in Florida enjoy each cities growth and are amazed by it. I think the other metros realize that with Orlando getting commuter rail that their chances are now closer to reality than if the same sort of thing happened in another southern city. Oh, and the IKEA comment that NC boycotts other furniture industries because of the losses of that industry in that state, everyplace in the US has these realities and a progressive city such as Charlotte views itself shouldn't have an issue with that, especially if it's supposed to be such a fast growing city made up of "newcomers" to the state. They would tend to go along with whatever is hip or trendy and would want it too, I would imagine.

[derrickskugler]

RALBOI - A word of advice... you really need to cut it out with the insults. You would look much more educated if you could frame an arguement without them.

Also, I did not list any misleading information. The metro areas were compared straight up, not altering ANY data. MSA's were compared in both cases.

Furthermore, don't say "you" when referring to me and Jacksonville. I live in Atlanta, not Jax. That being said, most people in Atlanta consider Jacksonville a much more significant mero area than Raleigh.

I am happy that you are so in love with your town... all people should be... but insulting and degrading others isn't going to get you anywhere in life. And, if we're going to get technical, I wasn't the one who pulled this off-topic. Actually, that was you.

Now, can we PLEASE get back to a discussion of Jacksonville since we're on the Jacksonville board?

[RALBOI]

RALBOI - A word of advice... you really need to cut it out with the insults. You would look much more educated if you could frame an arguement without them.

Also, I did not list any misleading information. The metro areas were compared straight up, not altering ANY data. MSA's were compared in both cases.

Furthermore, don't say "you" when referring to me and Jacksonville. I live in Atlanta, not Jax. That being said, most people in Atlanta consider Jacksonville a much more significant mero area than Raleigh.

I am happy that you are so in love with your town... all people should be... but insulting and degrading others isn't going to get you anywhere in life. And, if we're going to get technical, I wasn't the one who pulled this off-topic. Actually, that was you.

Now, can we PLEASE get back to a discussion of Jacksonville since we're on the Jacksonville board?

Negative, you stated Charlotte's CSA trust me on that, but anyway "am sorry" if you felt insulted and degraded, and yes my passion for the Triangle is intense, so let's agree to disagree and agree that all metro area's mentioned, prosper and do well in the future.

[AuLukey]

Hah, I leave the thread for a couple days and look what's happening. Ok, first off, calm the heck down on the criticizing. This is a debate for fun; it's definitely not meant to offend anybody. This is a tough argument with a lot of fine lines and geography seems to be a big player.

I have to defend the idea that Jacksonville has rivalries with Tampa and Orlando over who will be the next Miami, and it has a lot of catching up to do. But at the same time, I just don't get the "striving to be like Miami" vibe in Jacksonville. It's a lot less Floridian than the other metros in the state. Maybe it's the geography that causes that, but it doesn't seem to have the same ego that the other three cities have. Orlando, Tampa, and South Florida all have a very beach oriented (yes I'm aware ORL doesn't have beaches) touristy feel compared to Jacksonville. Jax seems a LOT more business oriented, almost in a bad way. It feels more like a city than a destination, which is the same feeling I get for Charlotte.

Rivalries are different than similarities and that is what I'm starting to get out of this whole debate. Jacksonville has the "little brother syndrome" to Orlando and Tampa. (Sorry RALBOI, so do Greensboro and Raleigh -> Charlotte.) That isn't a bad thing; in fact, having a goal is probably good for a city's economy. If the residents and businesses of a particular city have a certain pride and want to make sure their city "catches up," then maybe they'll open more business in their own city instead of others. It makes me wonder though, who would be Miami's "big brother?"

Oh, and on a separate note, I have a question. What does one call someone from Jacksonville? A Jacksonian?

[poonther]

It makes me wonder though, who would be Miami's "big brother?"

As an ex-South Floridian, I'd have to say that would most definitely be NYC.

[krazeeboi]

I think a resident of Jacksonville is known as a Jacksonvillian.

To me, it would seem as though LA would be known as Miami's "big brother" over NYC. I think Miami and LA have more in common than Miami and NYC.

[poonther]

I think a resident of Jacksonville is known as a Jacksonvillian.

To me, it would seem as though LA would be known as Miami's "big brother" over NYC. I think Miami and LA have more in common than Miami and NYC.

While Miami may look more like LA, it's got the "push" like NYC mainly b/c many folks that live there now have lived in the NYC metro area, have family roots that connect them to NYC or are on vacation there from the Northeast.

South FL IS NY/NJ/Boston w/palm trees and warm winter weather and a heavy latin influence.

[jpl02]

While Miami may look more like LA, it's got the "push" like NYC mainly b/c many folks that live there now have lived in the NYC metro area, have family roots that connect them to NYC or are on vacation there from the Northeast.

South FL IS NY/NJ/Boston w/palm trees and warm winter weather and a heavy latin influence.

I have to disagree with you on this one poonther (a first I think!). I have always thought of Miami as LA junior. It's got that liberal, fun and sun atmosphere and the same fast-paced lifstyle and "trendiness". This is not to knock NY at all.

Put it in perspective like this. Dade/Broward = LA, Palm Beach=NYC. Palm Beach is definitely stuffy, boring and conservative like NYC.

[poonther]

On this one my good friend jpl02 , we are just going to have to disagree.

I feel that urban South FL was spawned by North-easterner's and grew in its image. The Jersey suburbs and L.I. to me look just like suburban Dade, Broward and Palm Beach. I feel that the South FL region is way more connected to NYC than LA. Sure South FL may have palm trees, trendy beautiful people and the warm weather like LA, but beyond that, I just don't see the connection. Look at the 3 big airports in South FL, you can catch a flight to the Northeast about every 15 minutes while to LA there's maybe 3 flights a day. Also on the news down there if something happens in NYC, they report it like it happened next door. The connection between the NE USA and South FL is just too deep and historical for me to see it as anything other than a Father/Son or Big Bro/Little Bro relationship.

And as always YMMV (your individual mileage may vary.)

[erdogs]

South Florida is known for it's transplanted residents from NY and NJ. Both working and retired. Las Vegas is the same way. The biggest problem south Florida has is the influx of northeastern criminals that have made it a haven for swindlers. LA has it's own home grown ones.

[Justiceham]

OK. Chattanooga still doesn't belong in the 3rd tier though.

Chattanooga does belong and that's that.

[krazeeboi]

South FL IS NY/NJ/Boston w/palm trees and warm winter weather and a heavy latin influence.

It's just easier to say "LA east."

[krazeeboi]

Chattanooga does belong and that's that.

All of the cities that were listed in the 3rd tier are principal cities in a metro of 1M+ residents. Chattanooga clearly has not reached this level yet, as its metro is only 650K. This is not to minimize the area's growth and development however. Chattanooga has impressed me from what I've seen on here, especially considering its size.

[asonj23]

I think a resident of Jacksonville is known as a Jacksonvillian.

To me, it would seem as though LA would be known as Miami's "big brother" over NYC. I think Miami and LA have more in common than Miami and NYC.

A Jacksonville resident is known as a "Jackson" or "Jaxson"