Progress Energy III (aka "Block B")

[orulz]

The unfortunate aspect of this project is that it involves levelling a city block to build a parking deck in the center first, with the surrounding development following later. I'd much rather it all happened at once. We don't need to see more parking decks along Wilmington and Blount.

And, wasn't the RBC tower supposed to have 7 or 8 floors of parking INSIDE the building, too?

The way that so much downtown real estate is used up by parking pretty much sucks. If that's the only way that people will ever come downtown, then so be it, but is there really a need for all these parking spaces? I don't go downtown often during business hours, but I sincerely doubt there's anything even approaching a shortage.

When the block north of Progress is redeveloped, there will be an absolutely enormous amount of parking on each the four blocks between Wilmington and Blount starting at Progress 2 and heading north. Unless this residential project is big, there will probably be more square feet of parking than of human-occupiable space, Progress 2 included. Am I the only one thinking that there's something wrong with this picture?

[Justin6882]

I'm sure they will work with Coopers - i for one would love to see it on Fayetteville street somewhere (I think someone mentioned this). The only problem with that could be that it is also a catering business and the location now allows for the vans to come in out more easily than a spot on fay. street would

[ncwebguy]

How many parking spaces will RBC's tower have within itself? The story mentions that Highwoods is looking to buy land to building the deck on this block, so I'm guessing this will be a similar setup to the other buildings on Fayetville Street having their parking needs met by Wilmington Street decks.

The city of Raleigh appears to not have to kick in money to make this happen -- a stark contrast to the last three parking decks built downtown. I hope the deck doesn't need an entrance/exit on all four sides (Martin, Blount, Davie and Wilmington). Moore Square Station seems to work with only the Wilmington entry/exit, but the other decks have Wilmington and Blount access. Maybe Blount street access will finally stop people from complaining about no parking for City Market.

Ground floor retail will help avoid the lack of activity on the Wilmington and Cabarrus sides of the Progress II block, making the storefronts on the east side of Wilmington/north of the old CC all the more unrentable.

Hopefully this will lead to a "destination cross" formed by Martin and Fayetville Streets, with retail, etc. running along Fayetville from Capitol Square to Raleigh Memorial Auditorium, and the Martin Street leg running from Person Street through City Market, this "new" block, ground floor of the RBC tower, the soon to be redeveloped N&O/Wake County blocks and on to the Warehouse district (Joes Place, CAM, redevloped Dillon buildings). These streets' parallel streets (Hargett and Davie, Wilmington and Salisbury) have support pieces, such as Exploris, CVS, Chick Fil A, the spa/salon, new convention center, etc.

[bikwillie]

When Progress bought that block I recall reading that they were going to work with Coopers since it was part of Raleigh's identity.

No one is more nostalgic than me- Clyde Cooper was my great uncle and I grew up on Coopers BBQ (although the product now is nothing like what it used to be). But lets face it, even the Coopers BBQ building is in extreme disrepair. More than half the block was leveled years ago for surface parking. Some of the buildings are literally brick shells, and most of the serviceable ones have had everything of architectural note knocked off and covered over with crappy facades. Coopers will relocate (hopefully downtown with the help of Progress) and dish out Q again.

Progress Energy is a good corporate citizen. (IIRC, they bought much of this property from First Citizens- a prime example of a bad corporate citizen.) Also, having Greg Hatem in the mix is reassuring. This is a very thoughtful and conscientious guy that is very concerned about making the community he lives in better.

[NCMike1981]

Great news!

[ChiefJoJo]

O, I agree about the parking issue. The article did mention a parking deck that would partialy serve the RBC tower, which already has 5-6 levels of parking itself. I do agree that it seems to be parking overkill, but all I can guess is that the parking codes dictate the number of spaces per sq ft in each building. Also, there must be a certain number of dedicated spaces for the employees at PE and RBC, and then dedicated spaces for the residential components, Progress III (?), Palladium Plaza, and RBC condos.

It is interesting that parking cost/supply (higher cost/lower supply) translates very closely to the success of transit such as TTA.

Hopefully this will lead to a "destination cross" formed by Martin and Fayetville Streets, with retail, etc. running along Fayetteville from Capitol Square to Raleigh Memorial Auditorium...

This project would fill a gap between the warehouse district, RCC/PE Ctr district (incl site 1, 4, and Marriott), Fay St, the RBC HQ, and City Market. That will be a nice continuous strip of development in a about 2-3 years.

[avery]

O, I agree about the parking issue. The article did mention a parking deck that would partialy serve the RBC tower, which already has 5-6 levels of parking itself. I do agree that it seems to be parking overkill, but all I can guess is that the parking codes dictate the number of spaces per sq ft in each building. Also, there must be a certain number of dedicated spaces for the employees at PE and RBC, and then dedicated spaces for the residential components, Progress III (?), Palladium Plaza, and RBC condos.

It is interesting that parking cost/supply (higher cost/lower supply) translates very closely to the success of transit such as TTA.

It does seem that Raleigh and PE might be trying to develop a solid foundation for future development by including additional parking. The amount of available parking could be used as a selling point to future developers who don't really have the resources for a huge parking garage. I'm sure that this is an attraction to small business owners too. Depending on how the develop this area, it does have an appeal to park the car and spend the entire day walking to where you need to go. Maybe a reason, maybe not.

[DwnTwnRaleighGuy]

Does anyone think that Progress Energy would have to have at least one new company coming into downtown in order to start this project? Or are they/and Highwoods just building the parking desk as a favor to RBC and hoping that other business's will come along looking for space?

[avery]

It does seem odd that Highwoods would invest in another parking garage. It makes you think that they would want some sort of future development rights in exchange for use of the parking garage.

[Jones_]

You can't ever recreate destroyed buildings....Especially the Isaacs block of buildings should be kept but even the Godwin elevator building I believe was at one time a movie theater (saw a pic somewhere, have to search for it) how cool would it be to have a Rialto style theater downtown in a funky old bulding like that? You can't build a new one to resemble it. How about an old country style sandwich shop that sells bulk coffee like perhaps say Nofo? No new building will work for that. How about a Hayes Barton Pharmacy in one of them? Or a bar like the old Stingray? or Churchills? or another place to grub like Big Eds? Do you think the space that Iatria is in would work for places like these? Do you want things like this downtown? I sure do. When you tear down your old buildings you don't get a second chance. I don't think most people here know precisely what they want, I hear a lot of generalizations (not everyone mind you) about needing more people, need more retail (true of course),...but how do want it to feel and function?

[willrusso]

When Progress bought that block I recall reading that they were going to work with Coopers since it was part of Raleigh's identity.

No one is more nostalgic than me- Clyde Cooper was my great uncle and I grew up on Coopers BBQ (although the product now is nothing like what it used to be). But lets face it, even the Coopers BBQ building is in extreme disrepair. More than half the block was leveled years ago for surface parking. Some of the buildings are literally brick shells, and most of the serviceable ones have had everything of architectural note knocked off and covered over with crappy facades. Coopers will relocate (hopefully downtown with the help of Progress) and dish out Q again.

Progress Energy is a good corporate citizen. (IIRC, they bought much of this property from First Citizens- a prime example of a bad corporate citizen.) Also, having Greg Hatem in the mix is reassuring. This is a very thoughtful and conscientious guy that is very concerned about making the community he lives in better.

My barbershop is actually located on that block to be raized for the parking garage/shops. I wonder if they will relocate.

[urbanesq]

Does anyone think that Progress Energy would have to have at least one new company coming into downtown in order to start this project? Or are they/and Highwoods just building the parking desk as a favor to RBC and hoping that other business's will come along looking for space?

I don't know whether they have someone else lined up or not, but NObody builds a parking deck as a favor.

I expect that their recruiting efforts didn't end with RBC; and I wouldn't be surprised to learn that there's another big or medium-sized fish out there that could occupy some office space on this site.

[urbanesq]

You can't ever recreate destroyed buildings....... Do you want things like this downtown? I sure do. When you tear down your old buildings you don't get a second chance. I don't think most people here know precisely what they want, I hear a lot of generalizations (not everyone mind you) about needing more people, need more retail (true of course),...but how do want it to feel and function?

I agree with you, and have posted before that it's a shame to erase history in the name of progress (no pun intended). That said, I recall that when the land was assembled, there was some talk of incorporating facades into the finshed product. This isn't the same thing as having new businesses in old, cool, funky spaces, but it's something.

I worry about the small businesses being forced out, and struggle with the desire to see downtown thrive and revive, and the desire to see it NOT become a generic, whitebread place that only a certain sect of people can afford to frequent.

[bikwillie]

^That's always the concern with any redevelopment. How do you obtain the right balance? Jones made a good point that I missed earlier: the Godwin Elevator building is a great building that should be saved. It seems structurally sound. However, no one can say that the block as a whole is not blighted.

As I said before, if Hatem and Empire are involved, some of those old buildings may be incorporated. They have become pretty adept at using the historic tax credit.

[urbanesq]

^That's always the concern with any redevelopment. How do you obtain the right balance? Jones made a good point that I missed earlier: the Godwin Elevator building is a great building that should be saved. It seems structurally sound. However, no one can say that the block as a whole is not blighted.

As I said before, if Hatem and Empire are involved, some of those old buildings may be incorporated. They have become pretty adept at using the historic tax credit.

Agreed; the block as a whole needs serious help.

And agreed: Greg does great work. I want to be him when I grow up.

[Jones_]

Agreed; the block as a whole needs serious help.

And agreed: Greg does great work. I want to be him when I grow up.

Agreed on all counts......bikwillie....what is the last time you heard Hatem was still involved? If that is still true that almost certainly means some incorporation of the old buildings will occur. I remember also a while back some mention of them being incorporated into the new project but the N&O's statement that the block will be completely leveled has me thinking that has changed....the N&O can twist its words to suit its own view.....shoot, the N&O is responisble for complete demolition of probably the coolest block ever in downtown anchored by the Park Hotel at Martin and McDowell. This view is looking east on Martin from approximately where Berkley Cafe is now.

[avery]

Agreed on all counts......bikwillie....what is the last time you heard Hatem was still involved? If that is still true that almost certainly means some incorporation of the old buildings will occur. I remember also a while back some mention of them being incorporated into the new project but the N&O's statement that the block will be completely leveled has me thinking that has changed....the N&O can twist its words to suit its own view.....shoot, the N&O is responisble for complete demolition of probably the coolest block ever in downtown anchored by the Park Hotel at Martin and McDowell. This view is looking east on Martin from approximately where Berkley Cafe is now.

That building looks awesome. It reminds me of the old women's Baptist College. Why on earth were these ever demolished???

[plus2]

Perhaps at least the storefronts, if not the entire buildings can be saved and incorporated into the new project. I think it would be neat to walk into an old brick building and come out the other end into a state of the art lobby at the bottomfloor of a tower.

[dmccall]

Agreed on a...his view is looking east on Martin from approximately where Berkley Cafe is now.

Thanks for the photo. My mother dragged me down there in 1976 during the demolition because she heard you could get some wood etc from it. We got about a dozen beams and one column and incorporated them as decorative beams in the house. The coolest thing, though, was a half dozen bricks that had the name of the prisoner who made it inscribed. These were from, what? 1890's or something??? They are incorporated now in the front and side stoops of my parents house.

[ChiefJoJo]

OK, back to the Progress Energy development...

I think PE would have a tough time justifying saving those buildings on the NW corner unless something could be done to the Martin St frontage of the structures. All that's there is a blank brick wall--no store front, no nothing. I would think a key component of any redevelopment in this area would be retail and street activity an all sides of this block, and this Wilmington/Martin corner will be a major location with RBC right across the street. Maybe there would be some way to create a store frontage without destroying the support structure, thereby maintaining those buildings and creating a new frontage on Martin St. If anyone can do it, Hatem can. Although his involvement is only based on preliminary proposals at this point.

I'm all for saving what we can, but I'd hope we can do it in the context of the vision for this block that has HUGE potential for DT Raleigh.

[Jones_]

OK, back to the Progress Energy development...

I think PE would have a tough time justifying saving those buildings on the NW corner unless something could be done to the Martin St frontage of the structures. All that's there is a blank brick wall--no store front, no nothing. I would think a key component of any redevelopment in this area would be retail and street activity an all sides of this block, and this Wilmington/Martin corner will be a major location with RBC right across the street. Maybe there would be some way to create a store frontage without destroying the support structure, thereby maintaining those buildings and creating a new frontage on Martin St. If anyone can do it, Hatem can. Although his involvement is only based on preliminary proposals at this point.

I'm all for saving what we can, but I'd hope we can do it in the context of the vision for this block that has HUGE potential for DT Raleigh.

I always envisioned that particular building with a restaurant that had outdoor seating along Martin St and all the bricked up windows opened back up. IMO one key piece of making anything facing Martin work is to move the bus station somewhere else....sure it sounded all nice to say everyone from all over Raleigh can take the bus right down to the arts district but that of couse is not how this city works...

[orulz]

IMO one key piece of making anything facing Martin work is to move the bus station somewhere else....sure it sounded all nice to say everyone from all over Raleigh can take the bus right down to the arts district but that of couse is not how this city works...

Not a bad idea.

Move the bus station west to the (future) intermodal station at the wye. That allow better synergy from an operational standpoint as well. The current Moore Square transit mall doesn't look like it was a particularly big investment in the first place, either.

[avery]

Not a bad idea.

Move the bus station west to the (future) intermodal station at the wye. That allow better synergy from an operational standpoint as well. The current Moore Square transit mall doesn't look like it was a particularly big investment in the first place, either.

I don't like the current bus station locale. The exhaust fumes are terrible.

[orulz]

I don't like the current bus station locale. The exhaust fumes are terrible.

It's a very, very cold environment, too, literally in the winter, and figuratively year round. There's no waiting room, at night there's no staffing and just occasional patrols, it's below and inside a parking deck so everything is brick and concrete (but mostly concrete), and lastly it's lit with sickening orange sodium lamps at night. Not a pleasant place to be.

But unlike what I've heard about other cities, though, I've never felt unsafe at Moore Square regardless of the time of day (or night.) Sure, there's a chance you'll get panhandled, but that and personal safety are different issues entirely.

Perhaps the fact that is unpleasant at night is what keeps thugs out. Hmm.

[Jones_]

It's a very, very cold environment, too, literally in the winter, and figuratively year round. There's no waiting room, at night there's no staffing and just occasional patrols, it's below and inside a parking deck so everything is brick and concrete (but mostly concrete), and lastly it's lit with sickening orange sodium lamps at night. Not a pleasant place to be.

But unlike what I've heard about other cities, though, I've never felt unsafe at Moore Square regardless of the time of day (or night.) Sure, there's a chance you'll get panhandled, but that and personal safety are different issues entirely.

Perhaps the fact that is unpleasant at night is what keeps thugs out. Hmm.

I used to live in the 3 story white brick building beside the entrance to the station and it never ceases to be a hangout spot and the bondsmans 24 hour TV does not help that either. Moving the station to the multimodal center was what I was thinking too. Plus the three entrances and exits for the buses on that block can be filled in with new mid-rise buildings...one on Martin, one on Blount and one on Hargett....city could make a nice buck and Pour House, Tir na Nog and Duck could all think about back patios with actual plants and trees too. Perhaps a garbage alley could be maintained along one of the bus drives so that stinking mess from Pourhouse does not have to sit out front each day. Just musing...