Progress Energy III (aka "Block B")

[raleighfan]

Regarding the new MOU between the city, Progress, and Highwoods, this thread discusses the development in that block. Here is the initial article describing what is planned. The deck will ikely be constructed on the interior of the block with retail, office, and residential on the exterior of the block. No word on whether any of the existing historic buildings will be renovated (particularly on the Wilmington St side near Martin).

Here's the location.

Cool. When I first read that article, without thinking too much, I thought they were talking about another standalone parking deck. Glad that appears not to be the case.

[Rufus]

is this where the 20 story Martin/Wilmington mystery tower is supposed to be? or is that across the street?

[orulz]

is this where the 20 story Martin/Wilmington mystery tower is supposed to be? or is that across the street?

That's on the other side of Martin, in front of the existing Moore Square Station deck.

[DwnTwnRaleighGuy]

I wonder what will happen with this whole block that Progress Energy owns if PE sells itself to Southern Progress in Atlanta?

[dmccall]

It's interesting that the MOU doesn't speak at all about any air rights or building up from the deck in the future (like someone mentioned with Alexander square). I also assume that the parking deck will not occupy the footprint of the entire block, probably just the W St. half?

Soooo. we're looking at W St. retail fronting a parking garage that is, oh, 7 stories and 1,050 spaces, 33% larger than the Moore Square deck (706 spaces). We currently have around 5,000 parking spaces in decks downtown. Aren't the convention center/Marriott/Site 1 going to add another 1,000 spaces? Pretty big increase.

We need a creative signage program that guides people to decks and alerts them to the free times. Chris and I believe a Green circle with a "P" in it on an internally lit retro sign should be clearly visible near each deck. There should be an orange neon "FREE" that turns on during those free periods. Heck, we could even have a white neon "CHEAP" that stays lit when Free isn't on! However this needs to be at EVERY parking area downtown.

There is no mention of tunnelling under W St. either, like Moore Square has into the old Wachovia building.

Oh yeah...it looks like they want to get started VERY SOON with this so it is in place when the RBC tower is done. I guess I'll go eat at Cooper's today while I can.

[orulz]

Even with these thousands of additional spaces, I guarantee that parking will still be the number one "concern" keeping people from going downtown (in surveys done by newspapers and TV stations.) But then, go to Glenwood South on a Saturday night when parking really does get tight and you won't hear many people complain at all.

The lack of parking is a red herring, and all the parking spaces in the world won't make people more willing to go downtown. We need more activity for that. I'm disappointed that so much land downtown in such a crucial, central location will be dedicated just to parking.

That said, I'm glad we'll be seeing street-level retail here.

[DwnTwnRaleighGuy]

We need a creative signage program that guides people to decks and alerts them to the free times. Chris and I believe a Green circle with a "P" in it on an internally lit retro sign should be clearly visible near each deck. There should be an orange neon "FREE" that turns on during those free periods. Heck, we could even have a white neon "CHEAP" that stays lit when Free isn't on! However this needs to be at EVERY parking area downtown.

There is no mention of tunnelling under W St. either, like Moore Square has into the old Wachovia building.

Please, please, please send this idea to the Downtown Raleigh Alliance! The DTA is the group that came up with that new multi colored map of Downtown.

[ncwebguy]

The old standard "full" signs at parking deck entrances should now be LED to support a variety of words, like "full", "free", "$5/car" (which seems to be the city's event rate in its decks), or "card holders only". There are "standard" P in a circle signs (which looks weird now that I type it) on all decks open to the public already, but that isn't enough. The Downtown Raleigh Aliance already gives away free maps showing where all the free parking is, but few people use them.

Going to Times Bar once, I was parking in Alexander Square and someone asked won't it cost, and I pointed to the (small type) free parking after 7 and on weekends sign. By contrast, Glenwood South is successful even though it only has two public decks -- 510 and Powerhouse Square.

This deck could be built "behind" existing retail on Wilmington, so those buildings may be saved. They could stay north of the Elevator company's building, leaving the south half of the block (including Cooper's) alone for a seperat project. The south half of the block is where the rumored "apartment tower" could go. Hopefully there will be apartments or condos above the retail, though that may be taken by parking, a la PE II's parking above Iatria, Wild Ginger, etc.

A "super deck" could be built in two parts, similary to how the Progress Energy II deck was built after the "convention center" deck on the NE Cabarrus/Wilmington corner. That deck has room for street level retail, which the city may look at opening in the next year or so as Site 1 and the new CC come online.

The only store front on Martin from Wilmington to Blount is the bail bonds place, which could be one of the tenants in the new structure.

The NE corner mystery tower has been quiet for a while... maybe they are waiting for RBC to get close to opening before breaking ground?

[Jones_]

The old standard "full" signs at parking deck entrances should now be LED to support a variety of words, like "full", "free", "$5/car" (which seems to be the city's event rate in its decks), or "card holders only". There are "standard" P in a circle signs (which looks weird now that I type it) on all decks open to the public already, but that isn't enough. The Downtown Raleigh Aliance already gives away free maps showing where all the free parking is, but few people use them.

Going to Times Bar once, I was parking in Alexander Square and someone asked won't it cost, and I pointed to the (small type) free parking after 7 and on weekends sign. By contrast, Glenwood South is successful even though it only has two public decks -- 510 and Powerhouse Square.

This deck could be built "behind" existing retail on Wilmington, so those buildings may be saved. They could stay north of the Elevator company's building, leaving the south half of the block (including Cooper's) alone for a seperat project. The south half of the block is where the rumored "apartment tower" could go. Hopefully there will be apartments or condos above the retail, though that may be taken by parking, a la PE II's parking above Iatria, Wild Ginger, etc.

A "super deck" could be built in two parts, similary to how the Progress Energy II deck was built after the "convention center" deck on the NE Cabarrus/Wilmington corner. That deck has room for street level retail, which the city may look at opening in the next year or so as Site 1 and the new CC come online.

The only store front on Martin from Wilmington to Blount is the bail bonds place, which could be one of the tenants in the new structure.

The NE corner mystery tower has been quiet for a while... maybe they are waiting for RBC to get close to opening before breaking ground?

I thought mystery tower still was trying to buy air rights from the city....

[JTsaysToYou]

Wait, what mystery tower? and isnt this where PE III was going to go? SOMEONE CLARIFY PLEASE!!!

[RaleighLover]

Wait, what mystery tower? and isnt this where PE III was going to go? SOMEONE CLARIFY PLEASE!!!

An old rendering of the "mystery tower" from Raleigh MSA:

[DwnTwnRaleighGuy]

An old rendering of the "mystery tower" from Raleigh MSA:

This building would be one block north of the block we are referring to for this project.

[RaleighLover]

I admit to not reading past the words "mystery tower." That project has been what I have always heard referred when talking about the "mystery tower."

[JTsaysToYou]

I'm pretty mad, because when i drive home on blount st. I have a perfect view of the construction site, and i was looking forward to watching it go up, but i guess not anymore if they start building the parking deck soon...

So they are going to build it so something could be put on top or not? I am still very confused

[ChiefJoJo]

Progress issues RFP for developments north of their HQ.

I like this:

A 22-page document sent to developers last week stated that utility executives would prefer proposals that include high-rise condominiums, a high-rise hotel or a building with both at the corner of Blount and Martin streets. The company is also encouraging proposals that incorporate office towers to attract a corporate headquarters downtown.

Progress declined to name the developers it is courting. But the property, one of the biggest available development sites downtown, could be sought by many national, regional and local developers.

... Properties on the corner of Wilmington and Martin streets will remain standing; they're not owned by Progress. Ditto for a couple of buildings on the corner of Davie and Wilmington streets, including Clyde Cooper's Barbecue.

[carynative]

I would love to see a mid-priced hotel (i.e. hampton, courtyard) etc. and MORE REASONABLE condos. This is a great location in that it's not to far from the CC and Progress Energy Center and is between Moore Square and Fay Street. There is amazing potential in this block. Could this be a project that breaks the 30 story barrier?

[DwnTwnRaleighGuy]

Great article, but David Ravin, the senior vice president at Crosland, makes it sound like bad timing. But Doug Redford, the senior project manager at LNR Properties, makes it sound great and puts Raleigh in the national spot light for developers?

[Subway Scoundrel]

On the new announcement downtown plans from Progress Energy. (suggestion to move post to this older post by Cheif Jo Jo)

I find this interesting. I could be a conspiracy theorist but here it goes. I think either they want to get plans into place before they are sold, and maybe even sell the property off before they get purchased by Southern. It would look good on their balance sheets and still leave a lasting impression as they pack up and leave town. I find it interesting that they are looking to have office space "for corporate HQ" which could somewhat take the place of them as the only F500 HQ company in Raleigh. Maybe this is the last stand as a good corporate citizen.

I still believe it is to be a good corporate citizen, dump the property for balance sheet reasons and also calm the workforce as to the blind eye working stiff, it looks like this announcement pushes the idea are staying Progress Energy. i.e "Why would they attempt this while getting ready to sell to Southern. I better get back to work because my job is safe."

An announcement like this keeps the minions focused and calms their restless soul. Keeps them working and being productive and keeps the rumor mill and sitting around the water cooler talking about if they got a hit on Monster.com down and to a minimal. When a company looks like it being bought, productivity goes out the window and people start to leave and spend more time looking for a job than doing their work.

I also find the fast dates as a sign that they want this closed or close to closed very soon. Settle this before any big announcement My guess is they will announce the sell to Southern in 1Q.

Again, I am just a conspiracy theorist but I do believe you have to read between the lines.

[NCpride]

Maybe the market can't bear more $350K+ condos downtown, but as we've discussed many times on this forum - there is a big need for lower-priced options, say around $200K.

Somebody help me here, but if we saw a 40+ story tower couldn't that help to drive down individual unit prices? With the units at the RBC already spoken for, I would think that is a positive sign for developers. Plus, this could possibly be one of THE best locations in downtown Raleigh.

What a great opportunity for Raleigh's signature tower! I'm keeping my fingers crossed.

[DwnTwnRaleighGuy]

On the new announcement downtown plans from Progress Energy. (suggestion to move post to this older post by Cheif Jo Jo)

I find this interesting. I could be a conspiracy theorist but here it goes. I think either they want to get plans into place before they are sold, and maybe even sell the property off before they get purchased by Southern. It would look good on their balance sheets and still leave a lasting impression as they pack up and leave town. I find it interesting that they are looking to have office space "for corporate HQ" which could somewhat take the place of them as the only F500 HQ company in Raleigh. Maybe this is the last stand as a good corporate citizen.

I still believe it is to be a good corporate citizen, dump the property for balance sheet reasons and also calm the workforce as to the blind eye working stiff, it looks like this announcement pushes the idea are staying Progress Energy. i.e "Why would they attempt this while getting ready to sell to Southern. I better get back to work because my job is safe."

An announcement like this keeps the minions focused and calms their restless soul. Keeps them working and being productive and keeps the rumor mill and sitting around the water cooler talking about if they got a hit on Monster.com down and to a minimal. When a company looks like it being bought, productivity goes out the window and people start to leave and spend more time looking for a job than doing their work.

I also find the fast dates as a sign that they want this closed or close to closed very soon. Settle this before any big announcement My guess is they will announce the sell to Southern in 1Q.

Again, I am just a conspiracy theorist but I do believe you have to read between the lines.

I agree! Get this land off of our,(PE), sheets ASAP! This will make us more alluring, and will get us the best price on the chopping block! So sad! But probably very true!

[urbanvb]

But hopefully it will gain attention from some serious developers which could bode well for future development in the DT area. This could be the big boost that really sets things on fire.

[Jones_]

The tone does not sound like you will get anything approaching a signature tower.....they are talking affordable condos and a hotel......if you get 20 stories that will be alot imo. The city would never allow something 30 stories right up on Moore Square....the stepping down in height from Fayetteville towards the east was what the City wanted and PE agreed to do with PE II. 6 stories at the cornet of Martin and Blount and 10 stories mid block on Martin with active uses (commercial) all along the ground level will be ideal. Also the area mid-block on Davie and the Davie/Blount corner could support other mid-rise structures or a single taller structure. Again not too tall because casting City Market in a permanent shadow kills off its ambience.

[ChiefJoJo]

The tone does not sound like you will get anything approaching a signature tower.....they are talking affordable condos and a hotel......if you get 20 stories that will be alot imo. The city would never allow something 30 stories right up on Moore Square....the stepping down in height from Fayetteville towards the east was what the City wanted and PE agreed to do with PE II. 6 stories at the cornet of Martin and Blount and 10 stories mid block on Martin with active uses (commercial) all along the ground level will be ideal. Also the area mid-block on Davie and the Davie/Blount corner could support other mid-rise structures or a single taller structure. Again not too tall because casting City Market in a permanent shadow kills off its ambience.

recall this statement from the N&O last year:

For Greg Hatem, chief executive of Empire Properties, that means building taller. "This is an area where we need to go vertical."

and from the article today:

A 22-page document sent to developers last week stated that utility executives would prefer proposals that include high-rise condominiums, a high-rise hotel or a building with both at the corner of Blount and Martin streets. The company is also encouraging proposals that incorporate office towers to attract a corporate headquarters downtown.

I think something mixed use, dense and tall would work well here. A hotel would complement the Sheraton, new Marriott and Lafayette. A new office tower could be packaged to lure a new corporate HQ (maybe Duke Properties--who wanted to put a late bid on city Site 1--would be interested here). Also, with affordability, interest rates, and demand being an issue for condos, I think apartments might be appropriate.

I'd like to see the parking deck built such that a tall (30+ story) tower could be built on top in the center of the block... retail should be on street level on all sides... semi-affordable apartments could go near Moore Square... a hotel near Blount & Davie... and office/condo tower on top of the deck in the middle of it all.

That's my proposal.

[avery]

I think the city would allow them to go big, vertically as long as it were on the west side of the block. It is impossible to keep Fayetteville Street as the only "tall" corridor downtown. There is just a lack of space availability fronting Fayetteville Street. This parcel is prime for development. I think developers see the benefit of building bigger in order to increase the affordability of the units. If the city is allowing Reynolds to go tall, why not just 1 block off of Fayetteville Street?

If the conspiracy theorists are correct, that means that PE might be willing to accept a purchase price that is lower than expected just to dump it. This could make the possibilities even more attractive for developers thinking bigger.

[plus2]

I would have a pair of towers. A taller one at the southeast corner of the block that would be primarily offices (20-30 stories) and another at the northeast corner with hotel-apartments (10-20 stories). And have retail with apartments above fronting the street everywhere else. The parking deck in the middle could have a "green" top with some grass and small trees that would give the residents and workers of the two towers a place to go.