Bring Back The Whale!!!

[HartfordTycoon]

Good article in this week's Hartford Advocate (can't link to it, their site is down) about Hartford and the NHL - basically nothing will happen without a new arena. How's attendance this year for the Southern teams, it seems like they are the best bets for relocating?

I don't know what the attendance is like but I'm sure it's significantly less than spectacular.

[beerbeer]

The Carolina story may be more intriguing around the NHL than around North Carolina. Average attendance of 14,220 is up over the Canes' losing 2003-04 season when crowds averaged 12,330, but it's less than the two prior years when the Canes regularly drew more than 15,000.

In the 30-team NHL, the Hurricanes are 22nd in attendance.

[blink55184]

SOURCE

[MadVlad]

Haha, it's a good thing the original Hurricanes numbers aren't avaialable, they are pathetic. That would also be including the "2for1" tickets everyone got. So, if you bought a ticket, you get 2, and they'd count whether you used them or not. Sometimes they'd count 10k at a game, and literally have 1500...

[Luca Brasi]

Good article in this week's Hartford Advocate (can't link to it, their site is down) about Hartford and the NHL - basically nothing will happen without a new arena. How's attendance this year for the Southern teams, it seems like they are the best bets for relocating?

I read that article today. I LOVE how the Canadian economist explains why the Whalers left Hartford to begin with. Instead of the knee-jerk-blame-the-market reason EVERYONE gives, he states what we all know:

"Peter Karmanos made a huge mistake..."

He explains that the Whalers leaving Hartford had nothing to do with the market and everything to do with Karmanos making an absolutely horrible decision. He goes on to say there is no reason whatsoever why the NHL couldn't return to Hartford and be successful with a new building and the new NHL labor contract.

[Theophrastus Bombastus]

Developer Says Arena Is Priority

http://www.courant.com/sports/hockey/hc-ar...eadlines-hockey

He should get the ball rolling now............

[DECDGUY]

According to the news last night, and the Courant this morning, Northland is looking into building a publically-subsidized arena in downtown Hartford, and would like to buy an NHL franchise to play there. "We've got our own money, we're willing to invest in an arena, and we're willing to buy a team", that according to Lawrence R. Gottesdiener, who I'm assuming is the CEO of Northland.

The bad news is he plans to make it a 16,000 seat Arena, which wouldn't cut it in this day and age, imho. However, he also said he'd work with Howard baldwin if possible, possibly add another tower where the current Civic Center is, and add a skating rink. We need to get this guy on this board...

Northland to build new Arena: Hartford Courant story

Gottesdiener is interesting. Yesterday, I heard him speak at the Convention Center (at the 2006 CT Economic Summit). More fascinating than his desire for an arena (logical enough) was his apt analysis of the residential component of downtown Hartford in terms of density. He compared New York's density (26,000 per sq mile) with the CBD (Central Business District) of Hartford, saying that in order for us to equal that level of density (which, in case you are wondering, is a good thing) we would need about 5,200 residents. This won't be achieved for many years.

The question becomes: without density at the get go, can services and "quality of life" arrive? This is the chicken and egg of urban revit. He is, of course, full of optimism, and in the face of bleak history, he was applauded as if a savior, when really, he is just a man interested in making a developer's profit. He has gambled on this city, and I hope he makes out well.

[DECDGUY]

With all due respect, I couldn't disagree with you more my friend. Cities need big budget projects to survive and grow. Even money losing ones. If cities like Atlanta and Boston did not have convention facilities and arenas, what class of city would they be in? Now ask yourself the same question about Hartford. We, as a metro, are a certain class of city population wise. There are certain amenities that are required. A capital city, in a rich state, which has had the premier venue for sports and entertainment in CT for the better part of the last 50 years just cannot, and justifiably will not ever be an arena-less city. Sometimes things have to be publicly subsidized, that's just how it is in this capitalist society. Investers only want sure bets. In my humble opinion, we NEED a new arena and it needs to be larger than 16,000 capacity, and I am sure it will be. I think this number is so people don't get scared and think the plan is unreasonable.

I shutter to imagine Hartford without the Civic Center over the last 25 years, imagine all of the lost revenue and exitement with no Uconn or big concerts Downtown. To me, that would be a nightmare. Let's pray that not to many other people feel that we can do without an arena in Hartford.

I really like the location for the proposed new one, it will get development jump started on that side of Downtown.

^^By the time I was done typing you guys had already jumped on this. That's pretty funny.

What is most interesting about your stance about using subsidized big projects like arenas to enhance cities is that there is a really big difference between enhancing a "central business district" and enhancing a city. Nowhere is there an example of an arena or a convention center enhancing the life of a city. It just does not happen. The benefit may be accrued in the area of tourism and visitor revenue exclusively. Through out the country there are many examples of arenas and stadia and convention centers and casinos surrounded by inconguously poor, dangerous and underserved neighborhoods that have experienced none of the benefits of having the big subsidized development in their back yards. This may mean one of two things: a) those developments are injurious to cities, or, b) we don't yet have the formula right.

[Luca Brasi]

^ He obviously sees tremendous opportunity... and why not? Downtown Hartford is wide open. You are talking about an extremely wealthy metro with an unusually large corporate presence. He can control the market in a few years. People always seem to say "who is going to live downtown" when they never realized no one lives downtown because there is no housing downtown. In a metro of 1.2 million you can't tell me a certain percentage wouldn't live downtown if given the chhance.

It is going to take outsiders like Gottesdiener, Nyberg, etc to develop dowtown because in Hartford, the conservative insurance/finance mentality permeates everything. It seems Hartford developers won't get involved unless they are practically guaranteed a large return - usually without using their own money.

[HartfordTycoon]

What is most interesting about your stance about using subsidized big projects like arenas to enhance cities is that there is a really big difference between enhancing a "central business district" and enhancing a city. Nowhere is there an example of an arena or a convention center enhancing the life of a city. It just does not happen. The benefit may be accrued in the area of tourism and visitor revenue exclusively. Through out the country there are many examples of arenas and stadia and convention centers and casinos surrounded by inconguously poor, dangerous and underserved neighborhoods that have experienced none of the benefits of having the big subsidized development in their back yards. This may mean one of two things: a) those developments are injurious to cities, or, b) we don't yet have the formula right.

I do not feel that a stadium or arena is a cure all. My only point is would Hartford be better off a.) Having never had the Civic Center or b.) Having had the Civic Center? Not to oversimplify things but answer that question for yourself. We may come to different conclusions. Mine is that we are better off due to the approx. 30 year run of the HCC. Without it we would have never had the Whalers, or big time college sports. The only reason Uconn took off the way that it did is because it filled a much needed void in CT and at the Civic Center. I realize that there are plenty of arenas and stadiums in bad neighborhoods that have not helped the surrounding community.

I have only lived in Hartford and Atlanta. Atlanta's arenas are all on the fringe of Downtown and the impoverished West End of Atlanta. They have begun to start spin off developments in the West End. The arenas may not be the sole cause of the development as the West End has a huge asset, the Atlanta University Center, home of my alma mater Morehouse College, Spelman College, Clark Atlanta University, Morris Brown College, The Interdenominational Theological Center, and The Morehouse School of Medicine. It is the largest consortium of historically black institutions of higher education in America, if not the world. The AUC to no small degree has helped to make Atlanta what it is, even though it's never mentioned. I guess the point I am making is that different things work different places due to a combination of factors, always unique as no two places are the same. Like I said a stadium or arena is not a cure all, but it can contribute positively and accomplish things that other developments can't. All pros and cons need to be weighed before embarking on any course of action. I guess my point is that big projects can be injurious to cities, but overall are either neutral or positives.

Also, I'm a sports fan. I have selfish reasons and big league dreams for my little city. I can admit that.

[beerbeer]

Arenas and stadiums are sparking huge developments in cities all around the county. This wasn't true in the 70s and 80s but the stadium authorities and developers have figured it out.

Look at the MCI Center in DC, Petco Park in San Diego, Camden Yards in Baltimore, The Staples Center in LA, the Target Center in Minneapolis, etc, etc, all of these have caused building booms.

In the early days of stadium development 60s, 70s, 80s, the site were mostly chosen by the ability to provide huge parking lots or finding a large area of very cheap land. The Target Center is a goood example. it replaced an arena build by the airport on cheap land with nothing around it. The benefits to the city were zero. The new arena downtown is now a coverted area for restaurants, shops, ets.

The area proposed by Northland should spur rises in real esate value and desirability for developers.

[MadVlad]

You all should already have your tickets and be on your way to the HCC tonight. You should be reading this after you get home. If you are reading this before 7PM, they are raising the numbers of Ron Francis, Kevin Dineen, and Ulf Samuelsson tonight at the Wolf Pack game. This is a good chance to show everyone that we support our former Whalers, and we want them back in the worst way. I would have posted this much earlier, but I got home late. See you all at the game with your Whalers green on....

[Hartfordfan]

yea i heard about this. Unfortunatly, many people think this night was created to boost ticket sales. But most people do not believe this. over eight thousand tickets were sold. Interesting, i think the attendence of this game is much larger than they had for playoff games.

[Hartfordfan]

this is good. keep on updating this story.

[MadVlad]

The announced attendance was 12,200. Great numbers basically for a team that doesn't exist anymore. We'll get our team guys, this was a strong showing...

[MadVlad]

Personally, I don't care if there's concrete proof. Tell that to the 12,200 people tonight at the Hartford Civic Center basically cheering for former stars and a team that doesn't exist anymore. Teams and arenas are more important than just winning or losing money, they create part of the fabric of the community. Our cities name gets plastered in the paper every day, the citizens get a team to unite around, there's good family entertainment. My nephew now has a nice Whalers t-shirt, he was 8 months old when they left. We build a new arena and get a team, he can feel the way I felt when I was his age, rooting for a team, living and dying by the boxscore (mostly dying, in my case). Arenas and teams aren't just brick, mortar, and money, they are our personas. I feel bad for the cities that have never experienced a team. I cannot tell you the devastation the Whalers leaving caused me. But, I would never trade away all the times I had over the years, never. Can the Wolf Pack bring that? No. Ask the business' around the Civic Center how their business was tonight rather than most nights. I bet you it boomed. And I bet you the Hops on the Berlin Turnpike still had a 2 hour wait, and the video rental sales were still just fine. I really doubt it draws that much money away from everything else in the area. Putting in an arena and a team doesn't create a vacuum, it fills one...

[MadVlad]

SOURCE

Ok, found this:

http://www.rodneyfort.com/PHSportsEcon/Com...Attendance.html

Carolina 1998-99 310,649 Avg. 7,965.40 58.2% capacity and that's with "buy one get one free" tix

pathetic

1997-98 they had 56.4% capacity

[JayHass]

Ok, found this:

http://www.rodneyfort.com/PHSportsEcon/Com...Attendance.html

Carolina 1998-99 310,649 Avg. 7,965.40 58.2% capacity and that's with "buy one get one free" tix

pathetic

1997-98 they had 56.4% capacity

Peter C is a scumbag, plan and simple. He never intended on keeping th team in Hartford and when the state offered the package they did, they at least called his bluff and made him out to what he really is. I'm glad he is gone, but miss the team. Hockey in NC is like NASCAR in New England...people go, but it's no where as popular as it is in the Northeast.

[BJE]

Personally, I don't care if there's concrete proof. Tell that to the 12,200 people tonight at the Hartford Civic Center basically cheering for former stars and a team that doesn't exist anymore. Teams and arenas are more important than just winning or losing money, they create part of the fabric of the community. Our cities name gets plastered in the paper every day, the citizens get a team to unite around, there's good family entertainment. My nephew now has a nice Whalers t-shirt, he was 8 months old when they left. We build a new arena and get a team, he can feel the way I felt when I was his age, rooting for a team, living and dying by the boxscore (mostly dying, in my case). Arenas and teams aren't just brick, mortar, and money, they are our personas. I feel bad for the cities that have never experienced a team. I cannot tell you the devastation the Whalers leaving caused me. But, I would never trade away all the times I had over the years, never. Can the Wolf Pack bring that? No. Ask the business' around the Civic Center how their business was tonight rather than most nights. I bet you it boomed. And I bet you the Hops on the Berlin Turnpike still had a 2 hour wait, and the video rental sales were still just fine. I really doubt it draws that much money away from everything else in the area. Putting in an arena and a team doesn't create a vacuum, it fills one...

Other than parking lots, most local businesses would be much better served by having full-time urban residents on any given site instead of an arena. You can't run a business based on a few dozen events over the course of a year. If you could, the Civic Center Mall wouldn't have died, right? And let's be honest, it was a dump even before the Whalers left. 12,000 seats, 16,000 seats, whatever, that's still not as much potential business as 2000 full-time residents in the same space. I contend that the businesses near the Civic Center have survived in spite of it, not because of it. More likely, those business have survived on the customer base provided by downtown office buildings, which bring tens of thousands of people into the city every weekday, and happen to include a mealtime (lunch) in the middle of their operating hours.

A personal data point: when I lived in Boston a few years ago, I lived in the West Fenway neighborhood. Other than Landsdowne St., which was a destination in its own right, the area around Fenway Park (the very model that many recent new urban ballparks are trying to emulate) is D-E-A-D most of the time. The most common business near the baseball stadium? Parking lots! Lots of them. And a couple of souvenier stores that were open only for a few hours before games, and the rest of the time were covered by full-height roll-up steel doors, giving the street that welcoming industrial skid-row back alley feel.

If you want to be enthusiastic about the prospect of an NHL arena because you're a sports fan, great! But to say they are a huge benefit to their host cities...I'm not buying it. And our tax dollars shouldn't buy it either.

And just to reiterate...I'm not trying to be negative, I REALLY LIKE Northland's proposal, to replace the current Civic Center with a pedestrain-scaled mixed use project...just without the subsidized Civic Center replacement on the north edge of downtown...

BJE

[blink55184]

A personal data point: when I lived in Boston a few years ago, I lived in the West Fenway neighborhood. Other than Landsdowne St., which was a destination in its own right, the area around Fenway Park (the very model that many recent new urban ballparks are trying to emulate) is D-E-A-D most of the time. The most common business near the baseball stadium? Parking lots! Lots of them. And a couple of souvenier stores that were open only for a few hours before games, and the rest of the time were covered by full-height roll-up steel doors, giving the street that welcoming industrial skid-row back alley feel.

BJE

Sounds like EXACTLY where I live now- I live up against the main sox lot, across from PJ KILROYS pub right on beacon st.

[HartfordTycoon]

Other than parking lots, most local businesses would be much better served by having full-time urban residents on any given site instead of an arena. You can't run a business based on a few dozen events over the course of a year. If you could, the Civic Center Mall wouldn't have died, right? And let's be honest, it was a dump even before the Whalers left. 12,000 seats, 16,000 seats, whatever, that's still not as much potential business as 2000 full-time residents in the same space. I contend that the businesses near the Civic Center have survived in spite of it, not because of it. More likely, those business have survived on the customer base provided by downtown office buildings, which bring tens of thousands of people into the city every weekday, and happen to include a mealtime (lunch) in the middle of their operating hours.

A personal data point: when I lived in Boston a few years ago, I lived in the West Fenway neighborhood. Other than Landsdowne St., which was a destination in its own right, the area around Fenway Park (the very model that many recent new urban ballparks are trying to emulate) is D-E-A-D most of the time. The most common business near the baseball stadium? Parking lots! Lots of them. And a couple of souvenier stores that were open only for a few hours before games, and the rest of the time were covered by full-height roll-up steel doors, giving the street that welcoming industrial skid-row back alley feel.

If you want to be enthusiastic about the prospect of an NHL arena because you're a sports fan, great! But to say they are a huge benefit to their host cities...I'm not buying it. And our tax dollars shouldn't buy it either.

And just to reiterate...I'm not trying to be negative, I REALLY LIKE Northland's proposal, to replace the current Civic Center with a pedestrain-scaled mixed use project...just without the subsidized Civic Center replacement on the north edge of downtown...

BJE

I really do agree with alot of your points and always said it's not a silver bullet to build an arena. I think it does help the overall appeal of the city though. Maybe they could build a new type of Arena Retail Residential complex. I personally would like to see all of those lots developed if and when an arena is built.

[beerbeer]

BJE -- You're off by a couple of decades. Fenway is a great exaple of the way NOT to do it. Of course, Fenway went up in the around 1910.

Look to the Target Center and MCI Center, new buildings that went up in the late 1990's to see how it's done. Both have proven to be tremedous economic generators.

[BJE]

BJE -- You're off by a couple of decades. Fenway is a great exaple of the way NOT to do it. Of course, Fenway went up in the around 1910.

Look to the Target Center and MCI Center, new buildings that went up in the late 1990's to see how it's done. Both have proven to be tremedous economic generators.

I did a little Google searching on those arenas in particular and public financing of sports facilities in general, and here's a little of what I found:

http://www.cdfa.net/cdfa/press.nsf/0/ff500...27?OpenDocument

http://www.cato.org/pubs/pas/pa339.pdf

http://www.brookings.edu/press/review/summer97/noll.htm

There's tons more out there along these lines...

However, what I didn't find are any objective studies that can effectively support the argument that the sports industry deserves public subsidies, or that there is a net public benefit other than making sports fans happy. Can anyone point me to some?

BJE

[sp1dey]

The return of the NHL aside, I think it's time to replace the aging and inadequate HCC. A new arena to house UCONN BBall, concerts, Disney on ice events, and circus would be fantastic. Unfortunately, some public funding would be needed, but it's one project that's worth biting the bullet for. With all the residential units coming on line in the next couple years, amenities like grocery stores, retail shops, additional dining venues will follow. Obviously front street will bring in some of this, but once people are living downtown, investors and budding entrepreneurs will follow. A new arena along with our new convention center and science museum will do well in drawing non residents into the city. A new arena would simply be another piece of the puzzle. It's a very exciting time to live in CT, one in which I'm happy I moved back from Boston for. I understand skeptics and certainly do not support blank checks for developers, but looking at the bigger picture I can't help but see how a well thought out replacement to the HCC could only enhance Hartford's economics and public perception outside of CT.

One last note, if you build it, they WILL come. As a Whalers nut, all this talk has me excited... and it's nice to see so many other people talking about Hartford with equal excitement.

[HartfordTycoon]

The return of the NHL aside, I think it's time to replace the aging and inadequate HCC. A new arena to house UCONN BBall, concerts, Disney on ice events, and circus would be fantastic. Unfortunately, some public funding would be needed, but it's one project that's worth biting the bullet for. With all the residential units coming on line in the next couple years, amenities like grocery stores, retail shops, additional dining venues will follow. Obviously front street will bring in some of this, but once people are living downtown, investors and budding entrepreneurs will follow. A new arena along with our new convention center and science museum will do well in drawing non residents into the city. A new arena would simply be another piece of the puzzle. It's a very exciting time to live in CT, one in which I'm happy I moved back from Boston for. I understand skeptics and certainly do not support blank checks for developers, but looking at the bigger picture I can't help but see how a well thought out replacement to the HCC could only enhance Hartford's economics and public perception outside of CT.

One last note, if you build it, they WILL come. As a Whalers nut, all this talk has me excited... and it's nice to see so many other people talking about Hartford with equal excitement.

I agree. I just do not think there is enough of a downside to offset the potential benefits of building a new arena, and let's not forget, freeing up the space around the old civic center. As a voter, tax payer, and resident of the City of Hartford, I see this as very worthy of pursuit, and do not mind my tax dollars being used.