PROPOSED: Ship Street Canal

[gregw]

http://providencephoenix.com/features/tji/...ts/05176875.asp

My 2 cents is that we already have plenty of waterfront area and that this is an unnecessary project. Why not enhance the waterfront we already have rather than develop new waterfront areas?

[DaveRPI]

this is an awesome idea

that would be such a huge draw on the other side of downtown from PP and WP, all within walking distance

if you think this is a bad idea, wow, i just dont see how you could say that...

the areas on the waterfront south of the jewelry district will get development that carries over into their neighborhood as businesses and people want to relocate as close as possible to our ever-growing downcity core

[eltron]

http://providencephoenix.com/features/tji/...ts/05176875.asp

My 2 cents is that we already have plenty of waterfront area and that this is an unnecessary project. Why not enhance the waterfront we already have rather than develop new waterfront areas?

I gotta agree with gregw here...

There are many, many more pressing concerns and need for those dollars than creating a new "waterfront." This is just a poor return on investment for a city that has SO many infrastructure problems as it is. Even if federal dollars came in, there are so many more worthy places needing dollars that wouldn't get it because of this.

Paul Pawlowski is a great landscape architect, and in an ideal situation where money was growing on trees, this would be a fine idea, but in the present state of the city, not a chance.

BTW, I can't believe this would be in the Phoenix, of all places...sounds like much more like a Projo scheme than something the Phoenix would back.

[gregw]

It's a great idea on paper. The problem is the cost and the fact that the city would evidently have to pay for it. If someone could tap federal dollars, I'd say sure, go ahead. But I'd rather see the city spend its scarce dollars fixing up and maintaining what we already have.

this is an awesome idea

that would be such a huge draw on the other side of downtown from PP and WP, all within walking distance

if you think this is a bad idea, wow, i just dont see how you could say that...

the areas on the waterfront south of the jewelry district will get development that carries over into their neighborhood as businesses and people want to relocate as close as possible to our ever-growing downcity core

[PVDJack]

There are many, many more pressing concerns and need for those dollars than creating a new "waterfront." This is just a poor return on investment for a city that has SO many infrastructure problems as it is. Even if federal dollars came in, there are so many more worthy places needing dollars that wouldn't get it because of this.

Agreed, a Ship Street Canal is pretty low on the priority list. That said, given the strange machinations of Federal funding, I don't think we should automatically discount the project. Aren't funds sometimes available for very specific uses (e.g. urban New England canals )?

[gregw]

BTW, I can't believe this would be in the Phoenix, of all places...sounds like much more like a Projo scheme than something the Phoenix would back.

I see your point, but, if I'm not mistaken, the Phoenix also strongly backs the burial of the power lines at India Point, which I see as a similarly very expensive beautification project. (I know that's a very controversial issue and honest people can disagree.)

Also, I like the Phoenix and Ian Donnis, but I think referring to Eagle Square and Silver Spring/Home Depot is soo 2001/2002. That was the Cianci administration which had very different planning policies than the Cicilline administration.

Again, I'd like to see the city fix up the Woonasquatucket banks as well as focus its energies on maintaining existing waterfront.

[ArtInRuins]

I'm glad to hear something in ANY paper about the impending waterfront redevelopment... there will be a lot of land up for grabs if it hasn't already been passed out, and that's the problem. Where are the other plans for these parcels? Richmond Street will suddenly not have an overpass, the Jewelry District gets reconnected, Jonhson and Wales' Rolo building will maybe have a purpose again, RI Hospital undoubtedly wants more parkign and more space to build, Wickendon Street will be reconnected to Point Street, what will the end of South Main look like...

It goes on, and I dont see/hear too much about any of these plans. Is land available for developers? Has it already been bought up? What's the process? Who owns the land, the state or the city (I've heard this is a real sticking point between the two)?

At least this proposal

[Cotuit]

Thom Deller pointed this out at the last forum meet, walk the route of the canal, and notice which way you're going, are you going up hill?

I agree, the city has thousands of infrastucture projects that need attention. The Phoenix article says that Waterplace is only used during WaterFire and Ship Street Canal would be used all the time, why? What makes it so special that people would use it? If people aren't utilizing Waterplace to it's full potential, why recreate it south of Downtown. We also have miles and miles and miles of underutilized waterfront along the bay and the rivers, I see no need to add more waterfront when we aren't using or taking care of the waterfront we have.

There's an inlet at Ship Street that can and should be expanded and improved, but building an entire canal, I just don't see it.

[Cotuit]

kinematix posted these scans in another thread a while back.

I wasn't able to make any of those meetings earlier this month regarding design plans for Providence but I was able to get my hands on a booklet that may overlap or be the same as the discussed propositions for the 195 land. I've only scanned these 4 pages but if there's interest I'll put up the rest.

Enjoy and I hope I've put these pics up the right way.

I moved this to the projects section and renamed it as "PROPOSED" though I don't really think it has much chance of happening.

[PVDJack]

kinematix posted these scans in another thread a while back.

I moved this to the projects section and renamed it as "PROPOSED" though I don't really think it has much chance of happening.

Thanks, Kinematix and Cotuit, for posting. Kinematix's post suggests that there are more than these initial 4 pages on the Ship Street Canal. If Kinematix or anyone else has them, please scan and post! Thanks!

[PVDJack]

BTW, I can't believe this would be in the Phoenix, of all places...sounds like much more like a Projo scheme than something the Phoenix would back.

Seems the Projo is behind it too. From a July 9th editorial:

"And yes, we like a lot of what's been proposed during the Sasaki planning process. We would even encourage it to be bolder -- for example, by recommending the Ship Street Canal in the Route 195 right-of-way, and an expansion of India Point Park (and more attention to the harbor and waterfront in general)"

[brick]

Seems the Projo is behind it too. From a July 9th editorial:

"And yes, we like a lot of what's been proposed during the Sasaki planning process. We would even encourage it to be bolder -- for example, by recommending the Ship Street Canal in the Route 195 right-of-way, and an expansion of India Point Park (and more attention to the harbor and waterfront in general)"

Like a lot of other development, if you got the private investors to contribute the money to create the canal, then I think this is a great idea. The renders in that folder are gorgeous. Theoretically it does cost some land and tax dollars, of course.

but as others have said, with public funds there are more pressing needs. I do hope that the development of Waterplace will add to the usage of the riverwalk. Right now there's no real reason to go down there unless you are a RISD student.

One major strike against this project, though: is it even possible anymore after the additional sewage overflow channel thingee is built? the drilling went right through the middle of where that canal would be, didn't it?

[gregw]

Like a lot of other development, if you got the private investors to contribute the money to create the canal, then I think this is a great idea.

Maybe Struever, Eccles and Rousse. They're redeveloping the nearby South St Station.

Does anyone know what is planned for the large parcel just north of that bldg and immediately south of where the canal would be?

http://local.live.com/default.aspx?v=2&cp=...1&scene=2506931

[eltron]

Maybe Struever, Eccles and Rousse. They're redeveloping the nearby South St Station.

Does anyone know what is planned for the large parcel just north of that bldg and immediately south of where the canal would be?

http://local.live.com/default.aspx?v=2&cp=...1&scene=2506931

I'm not sure, but I'm surprised nobody has been talking about the proposal for the parcel currently housing Inspections and Standards, just north of what you are talking about.

Page 49 of the City Vision Book:

Providence Vision

This is going to be a HUGE project if it goes forward. Big pricetag and big impact. Plus it blows up the awful Inspections and Standards bldg.

[PVDJack]

I'm not sure, but I'm surprised nobody has been talking about the proposal for the parcel currently housing Inspections and Standards, just north of what you are talking about.

Page 49 of the City Vision Book:

Providence Vision

This is going to be a HUGE project if it goes forward. Big pricetag and big impact. Plus it blows up the awful Inspections and Standards bldg.

Thanks, Eltron. Has there been any preliminary renderings?

[Cotuit]

I'm not sure, but I'm surprised nobody has been talking about the proposal for the parcel currently housing Inspections and Standards, just north of what you are talking about.

Page 49 of the City Vision Book:

Providence Vision

This is going to be a HUGE project if it goes forward. Big pricetag and big impact. Plus it blows up the awful Inspections and Standards bldg.

This project is confusing me. Is it 200 Dyer or not? Is 200 Dyer an old rendering? What's going on. I wish there were more info on this project because it is very exciting if it really happens.

[markOne]

One thing which is attractive in the canal renderings is that buildings, businesses, and sidewalks are right on the water. That is one of the things lacking in Waterplace Park. It gets better during Waterfire when a few streets are closed. It seems we all like outdoor dining but outdoor dining on a nice canal would be even better.

I am not convinced of the feasibility of this project but it certainly is interesting. I would want the canal to serve as a good link between the Jewelry District and DownCity and I am not sure I see that in the renderings. I need to take a stroll down there to put this in better perspective.

I do agree with the assessment that now is the time for such a project. Rarely do arge parcels of land in the middle of cities, like the ones opened up by the relocation, become available.

[CtownMikey]

If backed up by federal money, I say its a great project.

What made the uncovering of 2 rivers such a "great project" as compared to this one.

Didn't Providence have just as many problems back then that were more important than creating waterplace?

Yet, it appears that the city ignored its infrastructure and made a pretty mall and river.

I'm guessing the entire waterplace project along with the mall was claiming to bring so much to this city in addition to the actual projects, and it has lived up to that.

So now this ship street canal project is stating to do just that, so if backed up with Federal MONEY... go for it.

Was federal money involved at all in any of the project related to waterplace or the mall.. and if so, what percentage of the total cost.

[Griswald]

Im not sure of the exact percentages - but the city payed for little to none of the the waterplace/riverwalk renovations. The railroad tracks and rivers were moved using Federal money, since the tracks are part of the northeast corridor (Amtrak). Even the landscaping, including the west side of the river all the way down towards I-195 (the part that was just finished this year) was payed for with federal and state money. That's part of why the project was so great for the city.

I imagine a lot of the land freed up by the highway relocation is called for. I think J&W owns some of it, and will likely expand their campus. I dont know any details though. Lets just hope the land is put to good use (no surface lots), and there is plenty of public space and landscaping.

[CtownMikey]

interesting. What does Providence or any city do to earn/deserve federal funding?

[MikeR]

Like a lot of other development, if you got the private investors to contribute the money to create the canal, then I think this is a great idea. The renders in that folder are gorgeous. Theoretically it does cost some land and tax dollars, of course.

but as others have said, with public funds there are more pressing needs. I do hope that the development of Waterplace will add to the usage of the riverwalk. Right now there's no real reason to go down there unless you are a RISD student.

One major strike against this project, though: is it even possible anymore after the additional sewage overflow channel thingee is built? the drilling went right through the middle of where that canal would be, didn't it?

The tunnel is something like 250 feet below the grade, so this proposed waterway would not pose a problem. This proposal would be good for downtown in regards that abutting properties would see their assessments rise (any property abutting waterfront is worth more money). Higher-appraised properties are attractive for development; so developers would be attracted to the Jewelery District and you would see a lot of development/redevelopment in that area.

One reason Waterplace is underused is that there was no development per se around it (until recently). Remember, that area used to be a giant parking lot. The projects under construction around waterplace will draw additional prople there once they are completed. This proposed waterway should attract people right away as the adjoining properties are already been developed. Once all the properties in Capital Center are finally developed, there should be a reasonable amount of foot traffic in that area.

Any public investment in this project should be recaptured in a short time frame through increased assessments and development...Anyway, my 2 cents

[MikeR]

Im not sure of the exact percentages - but the city payed for little to none of the the waterplace/riverwalk renovations. The railroad tracks and rivers were moved using Federal money, since the tracks are part of the northeast corridor (Amtrak). Even the landscaping, including the west side of the river all the way down towards I-195 (the part that was just finished this year) was payed for with federal and state money. That's part of why the project was so great for the city.

A lot of the funding for the river relocation project came from the cancelled I-84 project. The Fed. Govt. earmarked money for that road. When it was cancelled, the money got diverted for Capital Center.

[eltron]

This project is confusing me. Is it 200 Dyer or not? Is 200 Dyer an old rendering? What's going on. I wish there were more info on this project because it is very exciting if it really happens.

I'm not sure. I'm sure Churchill and Banks are not doing it alone at 500,000 sf.

The developer, Brian Fallon, is a big developer in Boston, doing BIG projects on the waterfront. This project at over 500k square feet, is TWICE as big as GTECH. Big project indeed.

[Garris]

Everyone knows that I loved the idea of the Ship Street Canal, if for no other reason than to spur development, but Thom Deller at the last meeting seemed pretty clear on this...

Not gonna happen, too expensive, too challenging from an engineering perspective, again too expensive...

A pipe dream, essentially...

Still, if someone else (private developers) pays for it...

- Garris

[CtownMikey]

was waterplace ever a pipedream? or was that set in stone right from the start?