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CONSTRUCTION THREAD: Verdae


g-man430

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The Lazarus Shouse houses that were recently completed do not seem to be of the same quality as the original houses and the houses in the "Manor" area. I guess with the economy Verdae has had to move down market. What a shame.

You realize that the whole concept of new urbanism, or TND, is incorporating a mixed sense of community? Different price points, different demographics, etc all coming together within one development. The enhancement of that sense of community is found within the connections made by sidewalks, parks, and other community spaces tying this all together. One problem is that it's difficult to achieve a true mix. Numbers don't always workout the way they're planned, but I think it's worth noting that not all the houses in Verdae are MEANT to be for established families with a certain income level. I don't know what the quality of those houses are, but I HIGHLY doubt IF they ARE of lower quality, that it's because they got desperate or attempted to derail their initial plans just to sell.

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I am not in any way suggesting that Verdae should not promote a variety of price points, however, they have made the decision to reduce the quality of the architecture in order to increase the square footage of the units and decrease the pricing. This is a huge mistake. In other examples of TND such as I'on in Mt. Pleasant or Hammonds Ferry in Augusta, they have applied a sophisticated architectural code to even the least expensive housing. I contend that you can build a $175,000 house at Verdae that has true architectural integrity. They did not have to dumb down the architecture to achieve sales. The Lazarus Shouse houses imply historic architecture instead of trying to reproduce it as been done now in scores of well executed TNDs around the country. I can point out specific poorly executed details, if that is of interest.

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Please do. I'm also not sure I understand the problem with "implying" historical architecture, instead of reproducing it. Why does it have to be 'traditional' or "historical" (as you say) design, anyway?

I anticipated your response and will endeavor to point out specific detail when I have a little more time. I think what it really boils down to is good design, and while determining "good" design may be very subjective, I do think that the public tends to be more stimulated somehow by good design, traditional or modern, than by spec builder grade, draftsman (as opposed to architect) generated home design.

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You realize that the whole concept of new urbanism, or TND, is incorporating a mixed sense of community? Different price points, different demographics, etc all coming together within one development. The enhancement of that sense of community is found within the connections made by sidewalks, parks, and other community spaces tying this all together. One problem is that it's difficult to achieve a true mix. Numbers don't always workout the way they're planned, but I think it's worth noting that not all the houses in Verdae are MEANT to be for established families with a certain income level. I don't know what the quality of those houses are, but I HIGHLY doubt IF they ARE of lower quality, that it's because they got desperate or attempted to derail their initial plans just to sell.

Exactly, some people forget that not all buyers get the same value out of the exterior design. Some purchasers only have so much to spend and rather put that money towards more space or more luxery inside where they spend their time rather than on outside ornemetation. That is not to say anything goes, but but it is just smart to have some toned down options.

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Exactly, some people forget that not all buyers get the same value out of the exterior design. Some purchasers only have so much to spend and rather put that money towards more space or more luxery inside where they spend their time rather than on outside ornemetation. That is not to say anything goes, but but it is just smart to have some toned down options.

I don't think that architectural quality and "ornamentation" are necessarily related. To me this is a question of high quality design versus less skilled design. Some of the greatest buildings in the history of architecture are almost completely devoid of ornament. To you which of the following houses is more "toned down"?

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Again...btoy's words not mine, but I think in saying "toned down" btoy meant less exterior complexity of design and "ornamentation". So, given that meaning which of the two houses above is more "toned down" in your mind? I think color should be disregarded here as there is no cost impact of one color over another.

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Well, I'd say that the red house is fairly straight forward. It's more or less pretty simplistic. But, I think that's got a lot to do with the lot size and the kind of density that's being achieved. The other house has a lot more going on in terms of exterior surfaces and the number of them. However, the door and windows appear to be of a lower grade. Just my two cents.

However, I don't think that's any indication of where the Verdae development is headed. Let's see how the townhouses turn out. :thumbsup:

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So, you think the red house is more "toned down"? Which house do you like better and why?

The red house is very simple. There's an order to the windows, the trim is not overly elaborate, and there's no porch on the front. It's plain, but good. However, the materials are quality.

The other house has a porch, a complexity of exterior walls, gables and dormers, and pieces that add up to a more complex composition overall. Disagree? The trim is cheaper and the materials appear to be of a lesser quality.

And, this is why I asked you to define "toned down". Compositionally, the red house is toned down by my definition.

Edited by GvilleSC
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I agree with everything you've said here. I would really like for btoy to weigh in, as it was btoy who tried to suggest that "toned down" was actually less expensive. I know for a fact that the red house, which I agree is the more compositionally restrained, is also the more expensive house, and that can largely by attributed to the use of higher quality windows and doors and wood soffit/eaves instead of vinyl. Cost aside, I am assuming from what you said that you would consider the red house to be better architecture? In other words, the red house represents more sophisticated design?

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You have to remember a lot of the homes if not all of the homes in Verdae are built to buyer's specifications after the lot is sold. That's one of the main reasons you see so much diversity in each home built within the development.

Edited by citylife
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You have to remember a lot of the homes if not all of the homes in Verdae are built to buyer's specifications after the lot is sold. That's one of the main reasons you see so much diversity in each home built within the development.

The best, rather, almost all, TNDs have an architectural code that dictates scale, massing, building elevations, setbacks, and materials. In essence an architectural vocabulary is created for the development that allows for endless variety within the language. You are correct to say that many of the homes's in Verdae will be built to buyer's specifications. However, Verdae is apparently relaxing the architectural code they had because they now want to be all things to all people without regard to a consistent aesthetic. Also, Verdae is currently building spec houses and townhouses that are inconsistent with the original architectural code of the houses that were built around Ruskin Square.

Relaxing the standards is a direct response to the economic downturn. There are hundreds of TNDs around the country now that have been successful, even in this economy, in consistently applying a well written architectural code. Verdae seems willing to exchange short term gain for long term value creation. There is no reason that Greenville and the Upstate shouldn't have a major TND that is as well conceived and executed as TNDs such as I'on in Mt. Pleasant or Hammonds Ferry in Augusta. The reason that Verdae will unlikely be of the caliber of those type of projects is because there is no one currently involved in the development of the project who has an in depth understanding or appreciation for New Urbanism/Traditional Neighborhood Development.

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I'm amazed at the conversation taking place. I'm not a defender of all things Verdae, as I'm not saying that it has everything correct. However, comparing it to I'On? Really? I'on is built to the specs of a TND, but its context is not. Connectivity SUCKS! Verdae is within the city, has multiple access points and has a mass transit connect currently via bus, and will at some point have a BRT or LRT connection. Totally different beast. One is built, the other is not. At the same time, however, one is very integrated within the current fabric of the metro, and the other is on the water and still has the problems associated with suburban sprawl.

I'm still not sure I understand how it can be said that Verdae has basically sold its soul because of some houses and townhomes..? We've discuss different price points, yes. But, apparently everything must look exactly the same in order to be able to call Verdae home??? Very confused.

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I'm amazed at the conversation taking place. I'm not a defender of all things Verdae, as I'm not saying that it has everything correct. However, comparing it to I'On? Really? I'on is built to the specs of a TND, but its context is not. Connectivity SUCKS! Verdae is within the city, has multiple access points and has a mass transit connect currently via bus, and will at some point have a BRT or LRT connection. Totally different beast. One is built, the other is not. At the same time, however, one is very integrated within the current fabric of the metro, and the other is on the water and still has the problems associated with suburban sprawl.

I'm still not sure I understand how it can be said that Verdae has basically sold its soul because of some houses and townhomes..? We've discuss different price points, yes. But, apparently everything must look exactly the same in order to be able to call Verdae home??? Very confused.

I think it is all about aspiration and inspiration. Verdae is one of the most important development sites in the Southeast. You are absolutely correct to point out Verdae's superior connectivity and present and future connectivity to mass transit. I completely agree with everything you've said relative to transit. The point I am trying to make is that there are hundreds of well executed TNDs around the country and architecture is an important component of them. I am concerned that Verdae has not performed the type of in depth master planning and architectural coding that the project warrants. Does everything look the same at I'on, Hammonds Ferry, or for a more modern architecture example see Prospect, http://www.prospectnewtown.com/?

With one of the greatest infill opportunities of the century should Verdae aspire to great architecture at all price points? I am only trying to make a case for sophisticated design as opposed to grocery store check-out plan book design/spec builder plans. Do you understand what I am trying to say?

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Isn't everything in I'on like $500,000 and up? If so, you can't really compare the two. I do think Verdae started out wanting to stay with that demographic but adjusted to the economic reality.

There are hundreds of TNDs around the country that have all types of residential options from $400 a month garage apartments to $4 million dollar houses. Please see www.tndtownpaper.com.

Verdae has scores of examples to look to for inspiration; they just choose not to.

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