Doing business in Grand Rapids

[GRDadof3]

Here's a bold statement from that article that I missed before:

As it turns out, for a manufacturing cluster West Michigan has a disproportionate number of national caliber technology firms, Brophy said. Most of these are small companies, but so are the majority in California and elsewhere. And with its entrepreneurial attitude, West Michigan may be better suited for IT growth than even Silicon Valley.

- Keith Brophy, Troy Based Nu-Soft Solutions, which acquired Sagestone Consulting this year

GRBJ

[superNOVA]

And with its entrepreneurial attitude, West Michigan

Sounds familiar...

[201test]

Sounds familiar...

Keith's a nice guy and a great (!) salesman, but not an accurate baromoter of the local tech scence (anymore).

Most of the tech firms here are servce or sales outlets of other offices -- Keith's own is now a satellite for a Detroit firm, despite its employent of talented code-writers.

It's a nice spin for Keith, who has a knack for snowing the BJ (sounds familiar...) but a look at the MEDC company sector list will show you few tech HQ's or r/d offices, just a lot of sales storefronts and rep offices. There are exceptions, but Silicon Valley???

Check out a GLIMA-West event and you will get enough sales rep cards to paper your convention center -- but not a lot more. We don't need more Birgit-Brophy hyperbole --

Silicon Valley??? Wow, blend that with MSU med school and we can't be stopped.

These delusions don't help anyone. I work with top CTOs, CEOs and CFOs in the area every day and know the econ development spin all too well -- there's a place for it, but swallowing it whole is dangerous.

Embryonic industries like video gaming are vital, but will not grow on overrstatements and hype. They need independent investment, economic incentives and class-a space to call home (yes, with parking).

[GaryP]

Keith's a nice guy and a great (!) salesman, but not an accurate baromoter of the local tech scence (anymore).

Most of the tech firms here are servce or sales outlets of other offices -- Keith's own is now a satellite for a Detroit firm, despite its employent of talented code-writers.

It's a nice spin for Keith, who has a knack for snowing the BJ (sounds familiar...) but a look at the MEDC company sector list will show you few tech HQ's or r/d offices, just a lot of sales storefronts and rep offices. There are exceptions, but Silicon Valley???

Check out a GLIMA-West event and you will get enough sales rep cards to paper your convention center -- but not a lot more. We don't need more Birgit-Brophy hyperbole --

Silicon Valley??? Wow, blend that with MSU med school and we can't be stopped.

These delusions don't help anyone. I work with top CTOs, CEOs and CFOs in the area every day and know the econ development spin all too well -- there's a place for it, but swallowing it whole is dangerous.

Embryonic industries like video gaming are vital, but will not grow on overrstatements and hype. They need independent investment, economic incentives and class-a space to call home (yes, with parking).

I agree about the over-hyping that goes on. It's great that the BJ is positive about things, but sometimes things just sound totally unrealistic. But I don't agree with the class A statement. Tech firms are a perfect fit for loft office conversions IMO.

[GRDadof3]

Yah, thanks for the reality shower 201test! Aaahhh... now let's get back to business. I agree with Gary that I wouldn't think tech firms would want class A. Although many of them use some pretty heavy duty power.

[201test]

I agree about the over-hyping that goes on. It's great that the BJ is positive about things, but sometimes things just sound totally unrealistic. But I don't agree with the class A statement. Tech firms are a perfect fit for loft office conversions IMO.

Yes -- class A in the dark fiber, parking and wireless sense, not in the lobby restaurant and shoe-shine-stand sense. Brass Works, the arena area and the west side all are/could be great for tech firms.

Not trying to be a wet blanket, but there's a lot of big talk today...if it pans out great. Statues for everyone. If it's just a lot of political smoke -- MSU as an economic engine, silicon valley-like tech -- people need to be held accountable. Elected officials and others.

This town has a selective memory when it comes to business development and promises made but never kept.

[GRDadof3]

It would be interesting to find out what promises you are referring to? Maybe I haven't been in GR long enough. I've only seen a completely tranformed downtown and many of the neighborhood centers revived. What is it that businesses here desperately need that is lacking (other than some major venture capital).

[201test]

It would be interesting to find out what promises you are referring to? Maybe I haven't been in GR long enough. I've only seen a completely tranformed downtown and many of the neighborhood centers revived.

The development of VAI was supposed to herald the gentrification of Belknap Overlook and a transformation of that area and downtown (North Monroe) into a high-end residential haven for PhDs from around the globe. Brownstones were visualized in the Press. Nope.

Cherry St. was supposed to spark a full revitalization of Heartside, including mixed-use, retail and residential -- hype in this area dates all the way back to the rehab of the Herikmer. When the bank branch went in back in the 90s, you'd thought the City had landed IBM HQ. Now, if you squint and turn your head, Cherry is kinda happening...slowly....I like the record store on Division, though.

Police station in City Center was supposed to revitalize Monroe retail, particularly east of division. Yeah , well -- I give the Sporting Goods store credit for just hanging in. Cafe Solace keeps changing its menu to stay afloat. So that one was also a swing and a miss.

The bath taken on Mackie's World incentives, which was supposed to jump-start the east end of Monroe Plaza. I was at the DDA meeting on that final crash and burn. Lots of PR, not a lot of substance, and not a pretty ending.

Parking in North Monroe, validated by multiple studies, surveys and promised by the city, but vanished once the Press decided to put their world-class production facility in Walker (!!!). Promise made but not kept -- will the downtown ever extend beyond Michigan St?

The first season of sellout Griffin games in the arena brought predictions of greatly expanded projects on and off Ionia as the next Rush Street (in a good, high-volume non-sleazy way) was declared by officials and developers alike. The death of Opus, the rise of the Black Rose and the opening and closing of a few coffee shops and salons later, we still have TAPS and Gardella's...and...and...Sam has some condos and DesignPlus has a nice office. That's not Rush Street.

Should we go all the way back to the Grand Prix? The race that was supposed to bring millions in tourist and sponsor dollars into our community and help put us on the map, but just made the streets look like fenced-in East Berlin circa-1972 and lost money. DOA.

Van Andel Museum -- lovely building that was supposed to usher in a new era of world-class exhibits and activity on the other side of the river. Even with Dead Sea Scrolls, we got years of it taking $1million plus annually from the city without keeping good books and running in the red, yet the executive director retires on a city pension and its future seems foggy at best. Anyone remember Autoworld in Flint?

Lots of hype for all of the above, little in the way of accountability for "what happened?"

Downtown has been improved!

Revitalized is too strong a word.

When I come downtown on a Sunday afternoon and see the same level of activity you can see in an Ann Arbor, an Indianapolis or an Oklahoma City (or even Kalamazoo!) -- then it will be revitalized.

Not every idea is a great one, but we don't seem to have many new ones these days. Mackie's World (for instance) had something -- just nothing that worked here at the moment.

Failure is part of growth. But to constantly trumpet every move as brilliant and never acknowledge or learn publicly from missteps is arrogant and dangerous. How many other community COCs are pushing their own life science coordor, complete with some combination of research, clinical and manufacturing capacity?

What do we need? -- a willingness to come up with our own ideas or embrace new ones from out of the area...(heaven forbid)

As for what we have accomplished, it's nice. But look at new arenas, convention facilities and entertainment districts of the past 10 years in other cities. We've done okay by comparison, but mistaking "okay" for "incredible" will only perpetuate mediocrity.

[GRDadof3]

I guess I have been here during all of the things you mentioned. I don't remember anyone thinking Grand Rapids was going to be the new Messopotamia.

I would say Heartside and much of Ionia have been revitalized, and have a lot more potential. Rush Street is overrated.

Restaurants and bars go in and out of business all the time, even in breathtaking fashion in large cities.

I would venture to say that most of the Belknap residents don't want to be gentrified.

I don't think the West Michigan Grand Prix (like most Grand Prix's) was meant to be anything other than another downtown "festival".

You can't really compare downtown activity on a Sunday to an Ann Arbor when so many UofM students live and study within two steps of downtown. I'm surprised how much activity we do have downtown on weekends compared to just a few years ago.

I don't think anyone is trumpeting every step as "brilliant" as you suggest.

I do agree that we could use some new ideas here and from outside the area.

I think many people in this town have selective memories of how absolutely HORRIBLE and DECAYED downtown was in 1994. In fact, when I look back, I can't believe I voluntarily moved here with no job yet.

I guess I agree in some respects, but I'm a little more optimistic.

[superNOVA]

Interesting. I work pretty deep within the tech corner of West Michigan and once again I think the members here are missing out on what we actually have. We have one of the worlds largest fiber companies, one of the worlds only RFID companies, need I mention Smiths, as well as strong links to ONE OF THE LARGEST TECH COMPANIES IN THE WORLD... drumroll... GM. We are also home (regrettably) to one of the worlds largest and most profitable Internet sales sites (Quixtar). One of the companies I have worked with is the only one HP has doing blade server installs anywhere in the nation - the only one skilled enough to do so. There is also one of the largest computer resellers in the Midwest located here - sure you have never heard of them. They assemble and sell thousands of HP, IBM, and EMC storage solutions that go out all over the world.

I could go on and on and on... Sure, GR is not Silicon Valley but we are no slouch either. These companies as well as some of the larger global organizations know why they want to be in GR. The people, the work ethic, and the pure netoworking of being in such a dynamic local.

[PBJ]

Interesting. I work pretty deep within the tech corner of West Michigan and once again I think the members here are missing out on what we actually have. We have one of the worlds largest fiber companies, one of the worlds only RFID companies, need I mention Smiths, as well as strong links to ONE OF THE LARGEST TECH COMPANIES IN THE WORLD... drumroll... GM. We are also home (regrettably) to one of the worlds largest and most profitable Internet sales sites (Quixtar). One of the companies I have worked with is the only one HP has doing blade server installs anywhere in the nation - the only one skilled enough to do so. There is also one of the largest computer resellers in the Midwest located here - sure you have never heard of them. They assemble and sell thousands of HP, IBM, and EMC storage solutions that go out all over the world.

I could go on and on and on... Sure, GR is not Silicon Valley but we are no slouch either. These companies as well as some of the larger global organizations know why they want to be in GR. The people, the work ethic, and the pure netoworking of being in such a dynamic local.

I too have worked for a number of years in the "Tech Area" in and around GR (even done some work with SageStone). While I will agree that there are a lot of companies here selling and using a LOT of cool technology (Haworh being one of them), the one thing I've noticed is a lack of growth in the area. Even though I'm happily employed, I still look to see what's out there, and I've not noticed much increase in available jobs over the past 5-8 years. When I graduated college I had to HUNT down a job, there was vitrually nothing open (even the company I had a 3 year internship with had a hiring freeze). I've been very fortunate to be at the right place at the right time, working for a VAR/Consulting company, and now a big corporation, but for many people I know, it's been a struggle finding or changing jobs. Sure you may see a job opening here or there for Smiths, Spectrum, BDO, or Alticor, but there are a LOT of people in there area, all competing for those jobs.

[GRDadof3]

Not to be argumentative , but that's the same thing I hear out in Colorado and in the Pacific Northwest right now. Maybe it's something that's affecting the entire tech industry?

Going back to attracting corporations to relocate, I think there are only a handful of cities in the entire country that are having any success doing this. Nashville, Atlanta and Charlotte come to mind, but how many others? I'd have to do some more research. Most of the new developments in downtowns across the country are residential. Chicago even has not seen many new office buildings in its downtown like it saw in the 90's.

[PBJ]

Not to be argumentative , but that's the same thing I hear out in Colorado and in the Pacific Northwest right now. Maybe it's something that's affecting the entire tech industry?

Maybe that was my point (should have made it more clear).. While I think there "IS A LOT" of technology here, I don't see the area "booming with technology business/jobs" in anyway that could be compared with Silicon Valley. The people that are here are the ones that were here well before the Tech downturn of the late 90's early 2000.

As for relocating corps to d/t. I think that is a MUCH bigger undertaking than many people realize. I know I was suprised at the amount of work and time (years and years) it's taking us out here just to remodel our corporate headquarters, let along pick everyone up and move them to a totally new location. Moving also brings up all kids of other issues such as, "If i move 1,500 employees d/t, where to I park them all". It also would have an affect on employees. Many people like working in Ada, or Rentwood, or Holland, they live out there, they have families there, they don't want to drive d/t and deal with it.

[GRDadof3]

I agree too that the Silicon Valley comment was over the top. I didn't know this Brophy guy in the article was such a "cheerleader". It seems we're talking about two things here:

Getting companies to relocate to the Metro GR area

Getting companies in the Metro area to relocate downtown

It is difficult to get companies to move downtown, especially if the numbers don't add up, and as you said PBJ, people have settled into an area that is close to their employer (although who would do something like that ). Especially when people change jobs every 3 - 5 years nowadays. Although that premise lends itself well to living and working downtown due to its central location.

[PBJ]

I agree too that the Silicon Valley comment was over the top. I didn't know this Brophy guy in the article was such a "cheerleader". It seems we're talking about two things here:

Getting companies to relocate to the Metro GR area

Getting companies in the Metro area to relocate downtown

It is difficult to get companies to move downtown, especially if the numbers don't add up, and as you said PBJ, people have settled into an area that is close to their employer (although who would do something like that ). Especially when people change jobs every 3 - 5 years nowadays. Although that premise lends itself well to living and working downtown due to its central location.

Right.. There are very few people who want to commute 30 or 40 minutes in this area. I drive from Alger Heights to Holland everyday. 30 minutes one way. Not many with families want to add 30 minutes to the morning fuss. My old roomie recently moved to Dallas. He and his brother work RIGHT d/t and also LIVE right d/t at $1400 a month for a 2 bedroom. As for GR, I'm not sure that many families want to live with children d/t. I know in other cities it happens, I just don't see it happening anytime soon around west Michigan. People want yards for their kids to play in (even though most of them still sit in front of video games all day anyways)

[GRDadof3]

But in that case, downtown is perfect. You can get to pretty much any of the burbs in the Metro area within 20 minutes from downtown. Whereas if your company is located near the aiport or along 44th Street, and your employees live in Walker or Newaygo

[HolidayInnExpress]

I totally concur with 201test. Some Threshing needs to take place to separate the wheat from the chafe. Amorphous terms like

[GRDadof3]

Form and substance in what ways? Maybe I'm looking for specifics. Eliminating the SBT is not the magic bullet in my mind. If it's just changing the "climate", that's like changing "morale" in a company: it's very subjective and not measurable.

[HolidayInnExpress]

Form and substance in what ways? Maybe I'm looking for specifics. Eliminating the SBT is not the magic bullet in my mind. If it's just changing the "climate", that's like changing "morale" in a company: it's very subjective and not measurable.

By form I mean that Grand Rapids needs to start looking like a vibrant successful city. Image and superficiality is a very important part of attraction...its what allows you to

[Rizzo]

^I did a large study about the downtown look, I tell you that Skyscrapers mean a lot when attracting people to Grand Rapids.

[torgo]

Maybe I misunderstood you HIX, but I don't think pretty buildings are going to keep many companies looking at us seriously if we have a lousy tax environment or whatever it is that causes us to "lose the sale" when it comes to attracting jobs. It might work for attracting people to DT, but not necessarily companies. And it'd be hard to attract people somewhere if there aren't job opportunities. Not that I don't think "superficial" things like that are important, I do, but there has to be "substance" right along side it, not coming in later on.

[GRDadof3]

Well, it's not just skyscrapers (although they do help a lot). You're right, outdoor cafe's, good-looking people, glass high-rises, at least one condo building on every block, fancy cars, shiny new transit, "hide your bums", I think is what you're saying, and it all comes into play. But is that true substance, or is that just curb-appeal? Or does one drive the other?

I guess you do have to first "get the date", and then you better have the substance to back it up once you're "on the date". Otherwise, you have to be a pretty slick talker

[Rizzo]

Also, Grand Rapids seems to be very lacking in Form, but it makes up in Function. I think the time when Grand Rapids beautifully balances the concepts is when people will take notice. Not very many people like a widget that has duct tape and wires sticking out of it, but works. Not very many people like a widget that dosen't work, but dosent have wires or duct tape sticking out of it. We have to start looking the part, while orchastrating an environment that promotes growth.

[GaryP]

As for relocating corps to d/t. I think that is a MUCH bigger undertaking than many people realize. I know I was suprised at the amount of work and time (years and years) it's taking us out here just to remodel our corporate headquarters, let along pick everyone up and move them to a totally new location. Moving also brings up all kids of other issues such as, "If i move 1,500 employees d/t, where to I park them all". It also would have an affect on employees. Many people like working in Ada, or Rentwood, or Holland, they live out there, they have families there, they don't want to drive d/t and deal with it.

The current attitude of employers dt is that they must give each employee a parking space. This drives me crazy and I think if we can change it our city will only improve. This is one of the reasons I'm so in favor of LRT.

[HolidayInnExpress]

Maybe I misunderstood you HIX, but I don't think pretty buildings are going to keep many companies looking at us seriously if we have a lousy tax environment or whatever it is that causes us to "lose the sale" when it comes to attracting jobs. It might work for attracting people to DT, but not necessarily companies. And it'd be hard to attract people somewhere if there aren't job opportunities. Not that I don't think "superficial" things like that are important, I do, but there has to be "substance" right along side it, not coming in later on.

I have never been to Calgary Alberta, Denver or a host of other cities, but I have seen pictures of those places and based upon the pictures they are on my list of places to visit. Once I see a good picture, not wanting to judge a book completely by its cover, I do further research. However, the catalyst is always THE PICTURE/IMAGE, if not word of mouth. Now, show me a picture of Grand Rapids and I am completely uninspired to visit, except for pictures of the Beeches.... and will not do any further research that might uncover a hidden jewel. Again, it all comes down to initial impression born from attraction, whether that be buildings that give the impression of modernity, vitality and growth, or