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The Village At South Park

atlrvr

By atlrvr
in Charlotte Coffee House

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StevenRocks City

StevenRocks

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what would C&B not like about the Charlotte market?

I know right....If Raleigh & Richmond could have a C&B why not Charlotte?
Finding the suitable real estate was the biggest problem. Uptown's not a big enough draw for C&B yet. Northlake, Eastland and Carolina Place weren't either. C&B wanted SouthPark if they were coming, and most of the prime spots in the mall were already taken. They had to wait on the Village at SouthPark to get the visibility they needed for a store. Having a distributuion facility nearby didn't hurt either.

Having good locations that came on the market at the right time facilitated Raleigh & Richmond's bids for C&B. A lot of shoppers at the C&Bs in Washington came from Richmond and the new mall (Short Pump) was trending upscale, so that helped them out. Raleigh had a critical mass of educated, affluent customers and a good, large spot at Crabtree Valley Mall. By the way, look for C&B to relocate to a freestanding location at Crabtree in the near future. It's a hunch of mine :)

Charlotte probably had a reputation of not being very hip to modern furniture and housewares. Most of what's sold here is a little more traditional than Atlanta, Richmond, and Raleigh. Having a NASCAR superspeedway and prominent evangelicals unfairly typified the city as backwater also, I'm sure. (Don't flame me on that last part, y'all :whistling: )

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Miesian Corners City

Miesian Corners

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C&B didn't like our demographics. Get this: we are too wealthy. Raleigh and Richmond got stores first because they have large middle-income populations. Charlotte has large populations of high-income households. According to C&B's market studies, the higher income folks don't shop with them, the middle income households do. I think they finally learned that a Charlotte store would be a regional draw, not just a local one (and that Simon forced their hand on the matter).

You have to remember, C&B is owned by three people and they open stores where they want, because they want to. They still personally approve what actually is sold in their stores. They are not forced to enter markets by shareholders who want to see them dotting the landscape of every medium-sized city.

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StevenRocks City

StevenRocks

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C&B didn't like our demographics. Get this: we are too wealthy. Raleigh and Richmond got stores first because they have large middle-income populations. Charlotte has large populations of high-income households. According to C&B's market studies, the higher income folks don't shop with them, the middle income households do. I think they finally learned that a Charlotte store would be a regional draw, not just a local one (and that Simon forced their hand on the matter).

You have to remember, C&B is owned by three people and they open stores where they want, because they want to. They still personally approve what actually is sold in their stores. They are not forced to enter markets by shareholders who want to see them dotting the landscape of every medium-sized city.

Interesting.
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charlotte_bon_vivant Whistle-Stop

charlotte_bon_vivant

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C&B didn't like our demographics. Get this: we are too wealthy. Raleigh and Richmond got stores first because they have large middle-income populations. Charlotte has large populations of high-income households. According to C&B's market studies, the higher income folks don't shop with them, the middle income households do. I think they finally learned that a Charlotte store would be a regional draw, not just a local one (and that Simon forced their hand on the matter).

That doesn't make any sense. C&B has plenty of stores in areas with high numbers of wealthy households. They aren't a small chain, just look at their locations. C&B has been in expansion mode for years now. I don't believe Simon had to twist their arm so much as offer a suitable location. C&B is everywhere these days. There's no shortage os stores. I really think it was just a matter of time for Charlotte.

Maybe you've confused C&B with CB2? CB2 is their downmarket concept store. Those they are a little more particular w/r/t location placement. It's largely aimed at college kids and newly working professionals-- both groups who don't tend to have large wads of cash. C&B isn't "upscale" by any means, but they're business is driven by people with large amounts of disposable income. Those are the people who normally qualify as wealthy, which isn't the same as being "obscenely rich".

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Miesian Corners City

Miesian Corners

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That doesn't make any sense. C&B has plenty of stores in areas with high numbers of wealthy households. They aren't a small chain, just look at their locations. C&B has been in expansion mode for years now. I don't believe Simon had to twist their arm so much as offer a suitable location. C&B is everywhere these days. There's no shortage os stores. I really think it was just a matter of time for Charlotte.

Maybe you've confused C&B with CB2? CB2 is their downmarket concept store. Those they are a little more particular w/r/t location placement. It's largely aimed at college kids and newly working professionals-- both groups who don't tend to have large wads of cash. C&B isn't "upscale" by any means, but they're business is driven by people with large amounts of disposable income. Those are the people who normally qualify as wealthy, which isn't the same as being "obscenely rich".

I'm not confusing them. I know three people who do training for the powers that be at C&B in Chicago. The training company is based here in Charlotte. All three of them questioned the Segal family (owners) constantly on their passing of Charlotte for a store. The Segal's repeatedly told them they didn't want a store here, and had no plans for opening here. They like big middle-income areas if the store's not going to be in a large city. Somewhere down the line, someone in Charlotte made them angry. We're not dealing with Wall Street here, we're dealing with three very opinionated personalities who do things the way they want. The Segals may actually be more eccentric than the Belks (if that's possible).

You may have heard that C&B was looking here or there for a site, but it was local developers that were courting them, not the other way around. C&B had no plans for a Charlotte store until Simon gave them an ultimatim. (Simon is being difficult to Saks, Inc too, by the way, for their pull-out of SouthPark). That is the only reason they're opening here. So believe what you like, girly, but I have this info first-hand. They ain't thrilled to be here.

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CLTfanatic Whistle-Stop

CLTfanatic

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So is Simon still courting Saks, even though Southpark has essentially run out room to expand? Possibly as a replacement for Dick's? Has Simon made Southpark is little Pet project here lately? or does he treat all his upscale malls this way?

And speaking on the Village, has there been a tenant list released yet?

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mallguy Town

mallguy

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I'd be interested in hearing more about Saks. There are 2 that I know of at Simon malls that were to be closed yet are still open, apparently, at the Shops at Mission Viejo in Orange County, CA and at North East Mall in Hurst, TX. I'd think that with Saks' recent round of store closings, Simon would be trying to get on Saks' good side in order to keep those two stores open (especially as Mission Viejo is already losing another anchor and would be down to 2 anchors left out of an original 4 if Saks closes) rather than treating the chain badly.

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charlotte_bon_vivant Whistle-Stop

charlotte_bon_vivant

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The Segal's repeatedly told them they didn't want a store here, and had no plans for opening here. They like big middle-income areas if the store's not going to be in a large city. Somewhere down the line, someone in Charlotte made them angry. We're not dealing with Wall Street here, we're dealing with three very opinionated personalities who do things the way they want.

It still doesn't make any sense. They've opened in markets that fit the very criteria that is apparently unwanted at C&B. They've opened in small areas, large areas, areas where the income is at least twice that of Charlotte. They've opened in areas where there are virtually no middle class people at all yet that's the excuse for Charlotte. If they didn't want to open in Charlotte, fine. It's the reasoning I find suspect. It's BS since moving into affluent areas (more affluent than SP even) hasn't been a deterrent for C&B previously. I don't doubt someone told you that was the company's reasoning. I do believe they fed you a line of BS. For a number of reasons, it just doesn't make logical sense.

Also, why would Simon give C&B an ultimatum? What ultimatum did they give? The spot they chose is prime retail space. SP has a near 100% occupancy rate (thanks to Simon). There are retailers who want space yet can't get it. If Simon was seeking to place a mid-price furniture store at The Village, why not West Elm or DWR? Both of which would do well given Charlotte's demographics and their potential proximity to SP.

Simon is not being difficult to Saks. In case you haven't heard, Saks is in serious financial trouble. Like, they may not be around if they don't find a buyer, trouble. Saks is not looking to expand anywhere at this time.

BTW- What's so eccentric about the Belks? I've seen nothing that would give that impression.

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Miesian Corners City

Miesian Corners

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What makes the Belk's strange? Well, lets see...they throw heavy objects at each other during board meetings; they locked one of the family members (Sarah Belk Gambrell) out of a board meeting; when she refused to leave the building (and her office) they had her physically removed by having guards lift up her chair (with her in it) and dropping her out on East Trade Street; one family member got angry at the others and sold all of his stores (Columbia, SC) to Dillard's, thus leaving one entire Carolina city without a Belk (and around 20,000 Belk Credit Card customers with no place for their credit cards). Belk employees call the family "Dynasty in Dogpatch".

Simon is famous for making retailers do things their way. They are the largest retail mall company in the world. They control what are arguably the most important retail centers in the United States. You do something they don't like, they make things difficult down the road. You want a primo spot in mall A, then you need to open a store in mall B.

I cannont explain why the Segals don't like Charlotte. As far as to the arguement on high vs middle incomes, that was the reasoning I was given when I called their headquarters two years ago when people were speculating that a store would open at Morrison Place. I was told outright there would be no Charlotte store and the reason why Raleigh and Richmond got stores and we didn't was due to our lack of a large middle-income population (households).

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DigitalSky City

DigitalSky

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What makes the Belk's strange? Well, lets see...they throw heavy objects at each other during board meetings; they locked one of the family members (Sarah Belk Gambrell) out of a board meeting; when she refused to leave the building (and her office) they had her physically removed by having guards lift up her chair (with her in it) and dropping her out on East Trade Street; one family member got angry at the others and sold all of his stores (Columbia, SC) to Dillard's, thus leaving one entire Carolina city without a Belk (and around 20,000 Belk Credit Card customers with no place for their credit cards). Belk employees call the family "Dynasty in Dogpatch".

That is CRAZY

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StevenRocks City

StevenRocks

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You may have heard that C&B was looking here or there for a site, but it was local developers that were courting them, not the other way around. C&B had no plans for a Charlotte store until Simon gave them an ultimatim. (Simon is being difficult to Saks, Inc too, by the way, for their pull-out of SouthPark). That is the only reason they're opening here. So believe what you like, girly, but I have this info first-hand. They ain't thrilled to be here.
I think, despite initial apprehension, the Segals will be glad they put a store in Charlotte. They got the most prominent real estate at the best mall in the city. What more could they ask for?

So is Simon still courting Saks, even though Southpark has essentially run out room to expand? Possibly as a replacement for Dick's? Has Simon made Southpark is little Pet project here lately? or does he treat all his upscale malls this way?
If SouthPark magazine is to believed, Simon is focusing heavily on SouthPark mall. I would love to see Saks Fifth Avenue in the Dick's space. It would compliment the shops facing West Plaza better, even though the mall loses some merchandise variety with the replacement.
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appatone Hamlet

appatone

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I should preface this post by saying that everything I'm writing in it is a rumor or hear say so take it for what it's worth.

1) Dick's will not leave SouthPark even if that store doesn't bring in a profit. I believe the store is bringing in a profit but it's a fairly small profit especially compared to what the Pineville and Matthews stores do. But I have heard that Dick's is thrilled to be in SouthPark and that their presence there looks good in there portfolio. I think they feel simply being there raises their company's prestige. The Matthews and Pineville stores generate so much profit that it more than compensates for SP's lack of sales when viewing the Charlotte market as a whole. If Dick's is going to leave then it will be because Simon fought them out which seems to be a very strong possibility. Dick's thought it could keep Galyan's more, for lack of a better term, upscale distributors after the merger. They were wrong. Many of these better outdoors

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