Green Square & NCSECU HQ

[ChiefJoJo]

Relocating the Department of the Environment and Natural Resources to a very auto-dependent location with $20 million spent on parking?

I get this crazy feeling the State Government hasn't noticed what we are all trying to do downtown.

At the end of the day, this budget is about the state of NC, and unfortunately even with a moderate surplus, the legislators form around the state probably don't care about DT Raleigh versus Blue Ridge Rd. All they care about is getting their region some money/projects and that puts a lot of stress on the bottom line. It's pretty clear that they don't care about keeping state workers DT either, despite a lot of pluses that can't be measured in an annual budget (consolidation of office space, reduce sprawl, better interagency coordination, etc.). I hope that Raleigh's potential threat (see article) to pull money from Green Square causes the legislature to put this project back together as originally planned.

[DwnTwnRaleighGuy]

At the end of the day, this budget is about the state of NC, and unfortunately even with a moderate surplus, the legislators form around the state probably don't care about DT Raleigh versus Blue Ridge Rd. All they care about is getting their region some money/projects and that puts a lot of stress on the bottom line. It's pretty clear that they don't care about keeping state workers DT either, despite a lot of pluses that can't be measured in an annual budget (consolidation of office space, reduce sprawl, better interagency coordination, etc.). I hope that Raleigh's potential threat (see article) to pull money from Green Square causes the legislature to put this project back together as originally planned.

I am hoping that Mayor Meeker's threat to pull funing for this project would at least help facilitate talk with Gov. Easley? I think that the state should sale it's land off of Blueridge road, (get lots of cash). With that money build bldgs and put it's people back downtown. Just a thought! Also, I noticed that Larry Wheeler, (museum of art), got all of his requested money in the budget proposed by Easley. I live near this complex and find it one of the most unusual spots for a museum that I have ever seen. Wish it could be on the Dix property. Oh well!

[pdxheel]

The reason DENR is going to Blue Ridge and a Parking Deck to the Green Square site is cost and consolidation. With the redevelopment of the Blount Street Area state gov is losing a significant amount of parking spots, thus the need for parking at Green Square. Below ground at Green Square is too expensive (below ground was originally proposed under the Green Square DENR building). Also, there is an effort to locate all of DENR employees in one building and get them out of scattered leased space.

[Transplant]

The reason DENR is going to Blue Ridge and a Parking Deck to the Green Square site is cost and consolidation. With the redevelopment of the Blount Street Area state gov is losing a significant amount of parking spots, thus the need for parking at Green Square. Below ground at Green Square is too expensive (below ground was originally proposed under the Green Square DENR building). Also, there is an effort to locate all of DENR employees in one building and get them out of scattered leased space.

Wouldn't the only difference in building a parking deck below ground (vs. above) be the cost to dig the hole? How much could that possibly be compared to a multimillion dollar project? Also, if it is about this money, they should bury it, and sell (or lease) the rights to the air space above it.

[Jones_]

The reason DENR is going to Blue Ridge and a Parking Deck to the Green Square site is cost and consolidation. With the redevelopment of the Blount Street Area state gov is losing a significant amount of parking spots, thus the need for parking at Green Square. Below ground at Green Square is too expensive (below ground was originally proposed under the Green Square DENR building). Also, there is an effort to locate all of DENR employees in one building and get them out of scattered leased space.

As far as I know, Green Square parking has always been proposed as an above ground structure with commercial space incorporated into it at the SW corner of the block (NE corner of Edenton and McDowell), and it was supposed to be LNR's job to replace the lost parking in the Blount Street project (as well as the office space). Has that changed?

[sax184]

The reason DENR is going to Blue Ridge and a Parking Deck to the Green Square site is cost and consolidation. With the redevelopment of the Blount Street Area state gov is losing a significant amount of parking spots, thus the need for parking at Green Square. Below ground at Green Square is too expensive (below ground was originally proposed under the Green Square DENR building). Also, there is an effort to locate all of DENR employees in one building and get them out of scattered leased space.

AAACCKK!!!! Losing parking spaces means people need ANOTHER WAY TO GET TO THE SITE, not that they necessarily need parking. I'm sure this thinking is what informs the decision to move DENR, which makes me wonder if the same types of decisions will continue to get made when gas hits $5.00.

No harm meant pdx, I know you're just the messenger.

[avery]

It really would be a shame if our government jobs get sent to the outskirts of town. I realize that it is all politics, but I think the state would be better off to sell chunks of land off Blue Ridge and use it to develop more in downtown Raleigh. I realize that other parts of the state may not like the idea of tax money being spent on shiny new developments downtown though. The problem is that a new building is a new building irregardless of its location. Raleigh is our state capital people. I think that does hold a certain amount of pride amongst all North Carolinians...or it should.

[DwnTwnRaleighGuy]

It really would be a shame if our government jobs get sent to the outskirts of town. I realize that it is all politics, but I think the state would be better off to sell chunks of land off Blue Ridge and use it to develop more in downtown Raleigh. I realize that other parts of the state may not like the idea of tax money being spent on shiny new developments downtown though. The problem is that a new building is a new building irregardless of its location. Raleigh is our state capital people. I think that does hold a certain amount of pride amongst all North Carolinians...or it should.

Agreed!

As I stated above:

I am hoping that Mayor Meeker's threat to pull funing for this project would at least help facilitate talk with Gov. Easley? I think that the state should sale it's land off of Blueridge road, (get lots of cash). With that money build bldgs and put it's people back downtown. Just a thought! Also, I noticed that Larry Wheeler, (museum of art), got all of his requested money in the budget proposed by Easley. I live near this complex and find it one of the most unusual spots for a museum that I have ever seen. Wish it could be on the Dix property. Oh well!

[avery]

I live close to there too. I find it an odd place for a museum as well. I think it would be great on the Dix land. I do enjoy it being close to me though They have good food at the restaurant....ever been?

[DwnTwnRaleighGuy]

I live close to there too. I find it an odd place for a museum as well. I think it would be great on the Dix land. I do enjoy it being close to me though They have good food at the restaurant....ever been?

Exactly, the DIX land would be great! I could really see the new glass building that they want to build high on the hill especially at night. Oh well, when it comes to Larry Wheeler, he never ask. He just tells/instructs others with his opinion. Sorry! Just a little venting there!

Is the restaurant still being operated by the Irregardless Cafe people? If so then I have always enjoyed there food.

[dmccall]

Why don't they just build a big building to house all of these fragmented departments on their land at the SW corner of Capital and Peace? It would be near the transit station and PERHAPS the employees would want to liver near their office - They certainly HAVE to have a car to go to a Blue Ridge Road office. The whole thing is a very shameful statement by the government.

[pdxheel]

Why don't they just build a big building to house all of these fragmented departments on their land at the SW corner of Capital and Peace? It would be near the transit station and PERHAPS the employees would want to liver near their office - They certainly HAVE to have a car to go to a Blue Ridge Road office. The whole thing is a very shameful statement by the government.

I'm sure it comes down to cost. My guess is when using taxpayer money they have an obligation to select the cheapest option within reason.

[sax184]

I'm sure it comes down to cost. My guess is when using taxpayer money they have an obligation to select the cheapest option within reason.

$20 million dollars to build a parking deck in a field doesn't sound like least-cost planning to me.

[pdxheel]

$20 million dollars to build a parking deck in a field doesn't sound like least-cost planning to me.

Its a lot cheaper than an all undergroung parking deck.

[sax184]

Its a lot cheaper than an all undergroung parking deck.

This thinking is part of the problem. Downtown, not everybody needs a parking space. In fact, when you don't provide them, people (gasp) find other ways to commute!

[Jones_]

This thinking is part of the problem. Downtown, not everybody needs a parking space. In fact, when you don't provide them, people (gasp) find other ways to commute!

Most State employees make so little that they cannot afford to live downtown. I am in the upper 25% or so and a 200k condo is pushing it for me. I did buy my place with this particular project in mind though. We all had to fill out a transportation questionaire that asked about current and planned commuting (based on the location of Green Square) methods.....I would say about 50% of State employees in the captial area do and will continue to live in a 100k-120k (what that average 35k-40k salary can afford) house in eastern wake county and take U.S. 64 to work everyday. All these mid-rise condo buildings at $300/ft everyone is so happy about keep the largest work force in downtown from living here (if they even wanted to which is another discussion entirely). The stretch I am making here is that the folks that don't like to live downtown, often don't like alternative commuting methods. In addition to better buses and TTA rail, I wish average state employees had an interest in and could afford to live downtown.

[pdxheel]

Until there are viable public transportation options people will drive. CAT and TTA are pretty much worthless. I work DT Raleigh but live in South Durham. Using pub tran it would take me about 1 1/2 to 2 hours to get to work. Just not feasible. A friend who lives in N. Raleigh said he research using transit but it would take him over an hour.

I know several people who work for the State and they would love to live DT or close to it...just can't afford it.

[orulz]

If you're going to consider transit even in a city like tokyo or new york you have to think about location and routes before picking your place to live. It can't just be an afterthought. No matter where you live!

For example - if you want to live in S. Durham and commute to DT Raleigh, take a look at Woodcroft. With TTA buses every 30 minutes, if you knew the schedule you could get from door-to-door in less than an hour. There are plenty of options near workable transit, so honestly, it's not as difficult or as big of a deal as people make it out to be. It's just not part of the thought process for finding a home in our region, and many folks would go absolutely crazy if they didn't feel like they had the entire pallette of 3 core counties plus 27 peripheral counties to choose from.

I'm not saying this describes you, but you certainly can't live on a cul-de-sac in the middle of nowhere, and expect perfect or even workable transit service from there to everywhere else!

[ChiefJoJo]

Most State employees make so little that they cannot afford to live downtown. I am in the upper 25% or so and a 200k condo is pushing it for me.

I'm not sure where I fit in the salary scale, but I live on the edge of DT at 610 Hillsborough St., which was affordable for me, esp at a pre-sale price. I know a few people that work with me who are moving DT. The problem is that you need to get in now (or really the last 2 yrs), or you'll get priced out of the market (for a state employee--even a manger). Jones is right, the salaries aren't that high on average. Probably 10% of the state workforce could afford it, but most of them are 40+ year old managers with families and aren't the best candidates for DT living.

This points out yet another advantage Charlotte has over Raleigh. Their DT workforce is not only larger, but also it can afford to pay $300/sf for a condo in Uptown Clt (BofA, Wach, etc.). Maybe if TTA ever gets started up, RTP workers who CAN afford it will want to live in DT Raleigh or Cary or Durham and take rail transit and a shuttle to work.

Back on topic... whether State employees can afford it or not, I still think there are very good reasons to locate DENR in Green Square and not on Blue Ridge Rd.

[ChiefJoJo]

BTW, I have a close friend in the budget office, and this person told me that the whole reason DENR was included to begin with is they claimed their portion of the building could be covered under a federal grant--or some other federal funding, so the net expense to the state would be very small or zero. DENR apparently made a mistake and in developing the budget it was discovered that DENR @ Green Square would not be covered under the federal grant. That left the state to scramble to come up with funds for a new bldg from taxpayer money at Blue Ridge because their current building is scheduled to be sold or redeveloped and the leases are up in a short time. The cost of DENR @ Green Square would have been "much higher" than the current $50M project.

So there you have it.

[RALBOI]

BTW, I have a close friend in the budget office, and this person told me that the whole reason DENR was included to begin with is they claimed their portion of the building could be covered under a federal grant--or some other federal funding, so the net expense to the state would be very small or zero. DENR apparently made a mistake and in developing the budget it was discovered that DENR @ Green Square would not be covered under the federal grant. That left the state to scramble to come up with funds for a new bldg from taxpayer money at Blue Ridge because their current building is scheduled to be sold or redeveloped and the leases are up in a short time. The cost of DENR @ Green Square would have been "much higher" than the current $50M project.

So there you have it.

So is this thing going to be built in downtown or not?

[Justin6882]

There was an editorial in the N&O about this subject today - says DENR should stay downtown, and all their points are good ones. Hopefully the state will take notice.

N&O Editorial

[rooster8]

Maybe one of Raleigh's legislators will push it back downtown. If it's part of a budget package, I can't imagine Easley would veto the whole bill because of one project.

[ChiefJoJo]

This is a zero sum game. If someone wants to move DENR back DT to Green Square, I am guessing that legislator will have to sacrifice another of his/her pet projects somewhere else to find the money. This seems unlikely, given that Jim Black and Marc Basnight control the legislature with a death grip. I was told that placing DENR DT versus on Blue Ridge would be significantly more expensive. I'm not sure what that means exactly, but perhaps on the order of $20-50M more.

[orulz]

What about the budget surplus? Hate to eat into that, but...