Charlotte is not Dixie

[monsoon]

I saw this map posted on another part of the forum and thought it might be of interest here. It indicates that Charlotte may not be as "Southern" as other parts of the Carolinas. We don't seem to get bogged down in issues such as the Confederate Flag and still fighting the Civil War. What do you folks think?

I note the map is 30 years old so it may not be as relevant now, but it does give an indication of the city's past on this matter.

[DigitalSky]

I love how florida is represented on that map- cracks me up

[orulz]

I wonder what a "dixie" listing as opposed to an "american" listing is in a phone book.

[teshadoh]

If there is any 'anti-Dixie' influence it would be Appalachia, which historically has been an isolated sub-region of the south. Not only having largely not supported the south during the Civil War, it is in many ways culturally distinct from the majority of the south, or 'dixie'. Foothills cities such as Charlotte, Knoxville & Greenville have been home to many ex-Apalachians.

It doesn't neccessarily mean they are more 'progressive' than other southerners, but just 'different'.

[DCMetroRaleigh]

That map or study is about 30 years old now, way out of day. A new map would show much more erosion of the "Dixie" identity in NC today. IN fact, Southern identity is on the wane in North CArolina, as the area increasingly embraces a "MidAtlantic" identity and migration from other states skyrockets.

[Miesian Corners]

That map or study is about 30 years old now, way out of day. A new map would show much more erosion of the "Dixie" identity in NC today. IN fact, Southern identity is on the wane in North CArolina, as the area increasingly embraces a "MidAtlantic" identity and migration from other states skyrockets.

Bite your tongue! Mid-Atlantic? Never will I embrace such a thing.

[archiham04]

This line (aside from the WNC pennesula) is very similar to the sweet tea line (my own line drawn only from my personal experience).

[orulz]

From what I've seen, the most impressive indicator of what is the south and what isn't is the Kudzu Line. Where kudzu grows, you can call it the south. Where kudzu does not grow, it is not the south.

[krazeeboi]

I saw this map posted on another part of the forum and thought it might be of interest here. It indicates that Charlotte may not be as "Southern" as other parts of the Carolinas. We don't seem to get bogged down in issues such as the Confederate Flag and still fighting the Civil War. What do you folks think?

I note the map is 30 years old so it may not be as relevant now, but it does give an indication of the city's past on this matter.

Rock Hill, Gastonia, and Gaffney less Dixie than the rest of the South? The whole state of Virginia practically "unDixie"? I think not.

[UptownGrrl]

I wonder what a "dixie" listing as opposed to an "american" listing is in a phone book.

I'm assuming this means a study of the percentage of businesses in an area that call themselves, for example, "Dixie" Auto Sales/Grocers/Dry Cleaners instead of using the word "American" in their name. And, how that can be predicted geographically. Interesting method of determining cultural identification. Usually businesses go out of their way to use a name that starts with "A" to be higher on the alphabetical list, so you can guess its a well deliberated choice.

It would be interesting to see how this has changed since 1975 with a generational turnover.

[Jerseyman4]

The whole state of Virginia practically "unDixie"? I think not.

Agreed. Danville and Independance were the only areas in Virginia that made the cut.

[LJinPA]

I know western NC had been settled by Germans and Scotch-Irish from the southern half of PA and may have had a little quaker influence also. On the other hand these people, esp the Scotch-Irish, were not really "Yankees" in the way the New England Puritans and the New York/Hudson Valley Dutch were.

http://www.scotchirish.net/main.php4

This website explains the scotch-irish and how, at least in the suthor's opinion, formed the backbone of the inland southern culture, the mindset of Appalachia, the Ozarks, the Ohio Valley, Western PA, and the Texas Cowboy culture(as well as a few New Hampshire counties which are now among the few "red" counties in New England). In that sense could one perhaps say that Charlotte is a Western Pennsylvanian or "Appalachian" city as opposed to aristocratic "deep south"??? (and I don't mean Appalachian in a pejorative sense)The skylines of Charlotte, Pittsburgh, Cincinnati, Lexington, Asheville, Greenville, Knoxville, Nashville, Philly, and a few others on a list of cities where the scotch irish either settled or had a role in "setting the tone". The term "redneck" was also said to have originated in Britain as a slang term for Presbyterians and became associated w the "scotch-irish" and others with similar values since the connotation of the word has evolved over the years.

http://www.scotchirish.net/Building%20a%20country.php4 You guys might like this site at least for the nice skyline shots.

Think of the big names in Charlotte today, McCrory, McCall, Polk. Many people are not familiar with the term "scotch-irish" (in Europe it is almost unknown). Sometimes "Ulster Scots" or "Orange Irish" or "North Irish" may be used, but many Irish Americans not of Catholic descent may very well belong to this group. Ronald Reagan, Richard Nixon, Andrew Mellon (Mellon Bank), Andrew Jackson were scotch-irish... So was Fred Rogers (Mr. Rogers Neighborhood)

This Census 2000 map shows the percent Scotch-Irish Ancestry:

And this one shows the percentage Black or African-American- giving some idea of where plantations were most common and "deep south" characteristics may have been more common. (Note that large cities anywhere being more black might be an exception to the pattern:

[Jerseyman4]

That is so cool! The US Census is not doing the map by counties, its marking the map by townships!

[Norm2]

Charlotte looks so HUGE in those maps.....I knew this was a growing city, but damn.....

[Eastwestrob]

This line (aside from the WNC pennesula) is very similar to the sweet tea line (my own line drawn only from my personal experience).

After moving back here from Phoenix and California...There is a sweet tea line everywhere. The difference is it is not brought to you sweet out there...but everyone sure sweetens it up once in hand

[LJinPA]

That is so cool! The US Census is not doing the map by counties, its marking the map by townships!

Actually it marks the maps however you want them to be marked and on just about any topic under the sun. Go to http://factfinder.census.gov & go to thematic maps, 100% data has more on race, Sample Data has more on Income, ancestry... You can choose if you want nation, state, county and if you want it broken down by states, counties, townships, census tracts, congressional districts. The sky is practically the limit when it comes to information these days.

As for sewwt tea, I have many times tried to make it the way they do in the south but never got it right. I know it's something you have to brew from the bag and use real sugar(doesn't work with Splenda) and no lemon. I THINK, The Arizona Brand- Southern Sweet Tea found in convienient stores tastes like Citric Acid and preservatives. I mean it's still good but not the same as what you get in some roadside diner in the South.

[monsoon]

Most of the restaurants in the Charlotte area will ask if you want sweet or unsweetened tea. Unlike other places further south it is not assumed that you want sweetened tea, and all restaurants offer both. However it IS always assumed to be iced tea if you simply order tea. Hot tea is unusual here and while you can get it in most places, you don't see it that often.

Everybody has a different recipe for tea. I would not make it like my grandmother would, as her "traditional" sweet tea only has about 100 million calories in it from all the sugar. (like most sweet tea) But I don't like it completely unsweetened either, so I make it with a combination of sugar and splenda. If you are going to have true sweet tea, it has to be sweetened during brewing. It isn't the same if you get unsweetened tea, then attempt to add sweeterner after the fact.

[MZT]

I have two general, never-ending gripes about the south. One of them is super-sweet tea ... (I call it hummingbird food.) I've reached the point now that I won't order sweet tea if it is going to be poured and handed to me... I'll just get it self-serve from the fountain or the jugs, and mix the sweet and unsweet together.

(I have a Talley's card just so I can pick up "Honest Tea" when it's on sale. $1.49 a pint at HT is too steep.)

[monsoon]

Well the trick to that is to get them to pour it 1/2 & 1/2 of sweet and non-sweet. haha. But you are right, the traditional stuff is very sweet.

[DCMetroRaleigh]

Although I grew up in North Carolina, I definitely don't think of my self as a Southerner. I am glad to see the growth of the Mid-Atlantic identity in the state, particularly in the Triangle area where I spent much of my time in NC. A 2003 Vanderbilt study found that North Carolina had one of the highest rates of declining Southern identity:

A decade of research distilled by Vanderbilt University suggests the number of proud Southerners is declining, with some rejecting the label of "Southerner" while the idea of what a Southerner might be is being diluted by newcomers.

In the study, males tended to have a higher denial rate (9.2 percent) than females (6.2 percent). Whites backed away marginally more (5 percent) than blacks (4 percent) but not as much as Asians and Native Americans (9 percent) or Hispanics (19 percent).

Southern Identity Declines

[Miesian Corners]

Although I grew up in North Carolina, I definitely don't think of my self as a Southerner.

You're from Raleigh, of course you're not a Southerner.

[NcSc74]

It is hard sometimes to define the state. My group of friends are mostly from the south. However when the subject comes up I say I am from the south and they say where and I say North Carolina. Well the general response is North Carolina isn't south. Or they say it is pseudo south. Also I have a co-workers from Charlotte and one from Fayetteville and both have just a slight southern accent as myself. A lot of times it is hard to pick up. I think NC is in a shift and is looking for its identity.

Although I can agree with the mid-atlantic shift I am proud of my southerness. I don't know what is so bad about. We have some of the best economies, places to live, higher education, quality of life and the list goes on and on. So our cities lag behind in urban feel. In time they will mature and will manage to keep the southern charm that make them so attractive.

[teshadoh]

You're from Raleigh, of course you're not a Southerner.

Great & true answer - for any suburbanite it's the truth. The South is rooted in it's rural environment, but that is wrongly assumed as the most 'southern' areas, most inner city locations are deeply rooted in their southern heritage. Remember, whites aren't the only southern people - which is either a wrong assumption or a racist view stereotyped by either white southerners or northeasterners who don't understand the south.

Charlotte is a southern city as is Atlanta & most likely whatever part of Raleigh that isn't in the research triangle. The suburbs aren't anything - which for most sunbelt cities is the overwhelming majority of what is considered the city. By that viewpoint - in a suburbanite's world view, everything looks the same, the suburb represents the rural areas & the urban areas as well. By the fact that NC is full of so many sunbelt cities & their suburbs, I'm sure for those suburbanites it would appear that the state is more similar to 'NoVa', suburban DC, than SC. This is the case for so many that live in Atlanta, that incorrectly view the city as an oddity in the south. Where I live in Atlanta, it isn't that different from Spartanburg - milltowns & BBQ joints. Only difference our shotgun shacks& millhouses are worth $200k & the company store has been replaced by a Starbucks.

So - excuse my diatribe - get over it NC'ers. Either you're a yankee or a self hating southerner if you don't think NC is southern but rather a generic Abercrombie & Fitch 'Mid Atlantic'. If you don't eat fresh crabcakes - you're not Mid Atlantic.

[archiham04]

After moving back here from Phoenix and California...There is a sweet tea line everywhere. The difference is it is not brought to you sweet out there...but everyone sure sweetens it up once in hand

The sweet tea line is where you are stopped being asked to distinguish between tea and sweet tea. Above the line, "tea" is unsweetend tea, below "tea" is sweet tea. In my experience, some where above danville VA is where they start serving tea as unsweetened.

[Dukeis#1]

If there is any 'anti-Dixie' influence it would be Appalachia, which historically has been an isolated sub-region of the south. Not only having largely not supported the south during the Civil War, it is in many ways culturally distinct from the majority of the south, or 'dixie'. Foothills cities such as Charlotte, Knoxville & Greenville have been home to many ex-Apalachians.

Have to disagree with you a little bit...While it's true most of the area didn't really "pick a side" during the war, here in the northwestern Carolina mountains most of the locals would be boiling if you identified them as anything but Southerners. It's obviously not deep/full blown accent south, but the people just feel they are part of Dixie.

There seems to be a generalized view that west Carolina has a strong progressive attitude, but in reality, that couldn't be further from the truth. Outside of Asheville, very little has changed over the last few decades. I know because I've been here my entire life. (proud of it too)