Va. Beach Town Center project 2

[varider]

guys what's that horseshoe shaped ring of buildings?

[vdogg]

guys what's that horseshoe shaped ring of buildings?

CityView

[varider]

CityView

thanks. i didn't know cityview was that large of a project! && I think Va Beach would be so cool with an NBA team, which gets me wondering if it should be called the Virginia Beach ______ or the Hampton Roads __________ or the Virginia _________

Edited May 3, 2009 by varider

[urbanlife]

CityView

Which horseshoe shape is he referring to? Because if it is the one on the upper right, that would be Cityview, but if he means the one on the upper left, then that is nothing but a density proposal. The area in the upper left of the picture is just generic office park buildings....which I dont see that area changing any time soon...I think that portion has the best chance to be redeveloped when the city redevelops the high school property....but even then, most of those office buildings are full, if not close to being full....unless they have seriously lost tenants over the years (which could be possible).

[varider]

Yeah I was talking about the one in the upper right. && did you guys see the two towers surrounding armada hoffler that look to be the same height or just a little taller? what would those be? I'm pretty excited for Va Beach now.

[HarryVB]

The horseshoe buildings. and the Top building infront of the Park is The City Jail and Courthouses, and goverment buildings.. There is no cityview project..They are moving the The goverment offices to where the PA highschool is.. and building a future PA highschool elsewhere. This would be a true downtown.. Like everyone says.. Connecting the goverment with the city Center is ideal.

[vdogg]

There is no cityview project.

They completed phase 1 of cityview last year and are supposed to start phase 2 this year. Trust me, it's there, in the exact location that I have labeled.

[ronsmytheiii]

Some things to notice:

PA High School seems to be on the chopping block as well as Pembroke Mall, and the road system seems to make a large square where the old FX building used to be.

If Virginia Beach is really dedicated to this plan, then the strip mall on Independence cannot happen, light rail must happen, and City View almost must be constructed. Those are the true litmus test to see whether Virginia Bbeach is dedicated to the Newurbanist ideas.

[Padman]

I was surprised to see the intensity of development split between the west and east segments of the plan, which makes good sense, taking advantage of access at Witchduck and at Independence. Note the use of green space and the integration of Thalia Creek. A flyover would connect pedestrians and bicyclists to Trashmore. I doubt that we will have so many LRT stations in there--maybe two for starters (don't want to slow the train down too much). The stadium, as pictured was intended for football, I think, and would be a bit smaller as an arena, but who knows? Height of buildings could go either way.

This really is a downtown plan, not an "edge city" development. Given the difficulty and expense of dealing with all of our water crossings, it might make sense to have two major downtowns on the Southside. Town Center is pretty accessible, and LRT will make it more so. p.s. could we call it something else? Pembroke would be better.

Edited May 4, 2009 by Padman

[urbanlife]

yeah, if anything they will have the 2 eastern stops built first for light rail, then as development happens on the western side, the other two stops will be constructed....of course they could just as easily construct all four stops at the beginning and only use the two eastern ones until redevelopment happens on the western section.

I wouldnt worry about trains slowing down too much, it is just 4 stops...and four stops in downtown VB which it makes sense to have more stops within the downtown, just like downtown Norfolk does.

One thing the drawings do not show, but they note in the beginning with the road improvement drawings, is that the city is looking at having light rail elevated when it is running through Pembroke...unless I miss read that. Which would definitely add a new dynamic to the area.

And I know this is a total side note, but it would be funny if VB scored a pro team with this stadium idea even though Norfolk has been trying for decades....dont mean to start anything between the cities, I just thought that little bit of info was funny.

Anyway, I again, dont think this area will look like this plan in the end, you can go off of previous downtown plans to know that. The city's biggest issue will be the private developers. The city will have to set strict guidlelines and will have to spend millions upon millions to implicate this street grid, but if they are really serious about pushing this forward, it will be an amazing change for the better for the city. Also would be really interesting if the city ever talks about moving city hall, I have always thought the high school location would be the best place for that in the sense that it would give the city plenty of room to build an urban campus for the city hall. Of course, I think this will happen in slow stages, where you will see a hand full at a time of city jobs move from their current location to here under the "more convenient" idea.

[CaveMaN]

Wow, that's a rather impressive plan to say the least!

I really like the fact that they've incorporated a marina type setting along thalia creek where PA high currently sits. That would definitely make the TC area more environmentally beautiful-

[ronsmytheiii]

Also would be really interesting if the city ever talks about moving city hall, I have always thought the high school location would be the best place for that in the sense that it would give the city plenty of room to build an urban campus for the city hall. Of course, I think this will happen in slow stages, where you will see a hand full at a time of city jobs move from their current location to here under the "more convenient" idea.

Might have already begun:

http://hamptonroads.com/2009/05/virginia-b...office-pembroke

[CaveMaN]

I don't see how they would ever move all those jobs to the CBD, even though it would be nice for the downtown to house the government buildings as well..... I mean, you know how much money has been poored into the facilities at the municipal center?? A lot.

You have the Jail, the courts (which are attached to the jail for obvious reasons), the engineering headquarters for both public works & public utilities, City Hall itself, all the businesses around nimmo parkway that have sprung up as a result of the municpal center, and the proposed widening of princess anne, and extension of nimmo. The municipal center is like a self sustaining entity right now, it even has it's own pumping & electrical station for utilities to all the buildings.

Again, would be nice, but how in the heck could it ever become a reality?

[varider]

That elevated light rail through Downtown Va Beach looks so awesome. I really hope the city does this thing right and sets the most intense zoning guidelines for this plan && budget money for the restructuring of the street grid. I believe if the city does all the public needs for the developers such as utilities and road construction developers will flock to the Beach.

[CaveMaN]

That elevated light rail through Downtown Va Beach looks so awesome.

If only we could have a Gotham City style monorail system straight outa batman begins... just you know, without the blowing up & all...

[varider]

Elevated light rail has to be very expensive. Is it even feasible? We would have our own little "El" train

[urbanlife]

Elevated light rail has to be very expensive. Is it even feasible? We would have our own little "El" train

Well the feasibility comes in the traffic concerned, would it be feasible to close off Indy every time a train came through? That reason alone make the cost of raising the rail for a short stretch worth it.

[Mobius57]

An elevated segment much like the one that goes over the norfolk southern rail line.

[varider]

i wish we could go underground!

[urbanlife]

I don't see how they would ever move all those jobs to the CBD, even though it would be nice for the downtown to house the government buildings as well..... I mean, you know how much money has been poored into the facilities at the municipal center?? A lot.

You have the Jail, the courts (which are attached to the jail for obvious reasons), the engineering headquarters for both public works & public utilities, City Hall itself, all the businesses around nimmo parkway that have sprung up as a result of the municpal center, and the proposed widening of princess anne, and extension of nimmo. The municipal center is like a self sustaining entity right now, it even has it's own pumping & electrical station for utilities to all the buildings.

Again, would be nice, but how in the heck could it ever become a reality?

That is the realities of cities, spend millions to build something or study something, only to spend millions later moving it to a new location or changing the study completely. VB was created in 1963, thus making it still a very young city....its current location for city hall had to do with an agreement of Princess Anne County and the town of Virginia Beach, since of the growth of VB, it has made this original agreement outdated because there is a larger population within the city that is near Pembroke. Most cities have their city hall move at least once in its course...Norfolk's City Hall is not its original building.

Now it is known the city plans to move the Treasurer to the town center, which is definitely the first step and first sign of a move to come. Second, the city would need a sizable chunk of land to build a new city hall and facilities on, which is the land the high school sits on...which until we hear of a new high school being built in that area to replace this one, it is safe to say that city hall isnt moving any time soon, but when that happens, you can bet there will be a plan in the works to relocate. Which this kind of move would still happen in stages. The first part would be a more formal city hall move that focuses on more political aspects, then the courthouse and jail would move after that.

[varider]

If I'm not mistaken the city has been planning on replacing the school before this plan was even thought about? It might not take as long as we think. You know what would really be cool is if all the stores that are in Pembroke Mall right now relocated to the new mixed use towers proposed to be built on the mall's current location. I read something about Sears not being truly affiliated with the mall so they can't just force them out. Once Gateway Tower, Block 11 Tower, and the Aloft are erected Town Center in itself will be a strong, sustainable, urban center. I'd love to see the same type of development on Pembroke Mall site with a great mixed use of buildings. One or two supertalls and the rest medium rise office/ retail/ apartment buildings. After that, on to HQ and FX site. I could go on and on.... They have so much space to work with its amazing.

[CaveMaN]

Now it is known the city plans to move the Treasurer to the town center, which is definitely the first step and first sign of a move to come. Second, the city would need a sizable chunk of land to build a new city hall and facilities on, which is the land the high school sits on...which until we hear of a new high school being built in that area to replace this one, it is safe to say that city hall isnt moving any time soon, but when that happens, you can bet there will be a plan in the works to relocate. Which this kind of move would still happen in stages. The first part would be a more formal city hall move that focuses on more political aspects, then the courthouse and jail would move after that.

This is a loooooong way down the road.

The city just dumped $40 million into the jail to expand & renovate it. Part of that project was also the demolition, and creation of a new Building Maintenance facility. There is also a Sheriff's workforce building designed to attach to the jail's southwest corner. Also, there has been talk about expanding the facility yet again, to the south side where the main gate & access courtyard are located. When the expansion was completed, the facility was already at max capacity.

Not trying to be such a negative poster, just pointing out that the city has invested a lot in recent years here, and will probably try to get as much of their money's worth as possible. Afterall, the creation of an entire new municipal area would probably near, or exceed $500 million.

[varider]

vdogg could you capture the two renderings in the Pembroke Plan? the one's with the retail with the escalator and the other with the elevated train?

[metalman]

This is a loooooong way down the road.

The city just dumped $40 million into the jail to expand & renovate it. Part of that project was also the demolition, and creation of a new Building Maintenance facility. There is also a Sheriff's workforce building designed to attach to the jail's southwest corner. Also, there has been talk about expanding the facility yet again, to the south side where the main gate & access courtyard are located. When the expansion was completed, the facility was already at max capacity.

And they just built a brand new Dispatch and communications building across from the PD headquarters. I heard there are also plans to expand the Forensics division as well.

[urbanlife]

And they just built a brand new Dispatch and communications building across from the PD headquarters. I heard there are also plans to expand the Forensics division as well.

But nothing is stopping them from moving the city hall and more political things to Pembroke...granted it would separate the city politics from the courts system, but I am not really convinced they have to keep city hall with all of that....though on the other hand, this is Virginia Beach, the city that likes to have a little bit spread out all over its city.

Of course on the flip side, if the city hall and much of the municipal functioned stayed at the current campus, that would be more possibility for private development to happen at Pembroke.

Speaking of the mall, I am guessing it will eventually go through redevelopment phases, first phase once the general plan for the area is completed, would be building an urban mall or a small collection of multi floor buildings that are connected together (basically an urban mall), then removing parts of the mall to continue the redevelopment....keeping Sears where they are shouldnt be too much of an issue seeing it is still a stand alone structure....that would just be added into the street grid and give Sears its own block. Once the new urban mall was completed, the rest of the old mall would be removed, then parking structures would be constructed to add the new urban mall...once this was completed, the left over land would then either be built on by the owners of the mall or sold off to developers to develop into whatever they wanted.

Though for something like this to work, would require a public/private partnership with the help of constructing the garages and street grid with utilities. It is a smart idea for the city to have its hand in as many as these parking garages as they can because eventually parking will no longer be free at Pembroke and the city will be in line to take a sizable cut from these garages.