GSA/Federal Courts Expansion issue

[Chesapeake Pirate]

So I've been smoking a lot of crack lately and thought if the GSA says an expansion costs $40 million while a new building is $80 million, why can't Norfolk/Commonwealth foot the difference? If the Fed Courts and the GSA won't budge and continue to threaten to take 500 Granby or all of Monitcello (versus a couple lanes as Norfolk proposed) then help them build a new facility at Kirn as long as it is outside the 500-year flood plain (which probably requires a Cat 2 or higher direct hurricane hit for a 500-year flood to occur). Part of the deal would be a land swap giving Norfolk the old courthouse to house an expanded Kirn library. Basically, Norfolk is paying for a new library, an open road for traffic and LR, and continued tax dollars from 500 Granby and whatever develops on the Greyhound site.

It would be nice to try to make such an analysis, but GSA has not made public either the extent of their various cost analyses nor any specific numbers in order to know the incremental cost of something like what you suggest.

[lammius]

So I've been smoking a lot of crack lately and thought if the GSA says an expansion costs $40 million while a new building is $80 million, why can't Norfolk/Commonwealth foot the difference? If the Fed Courts and the GSA won't budge and continue to threaten to take 500 Granby or all of Monitcello (versus a couple lanes as Norfolk proposed) then help them build a new facility at Kirn as long as it is outside the 500-year flood plain (which probably requires a Cat 2 or higher direct hurricane hit for a 500-year flood to occur). Part of the deal would be a land swap giving Norfolk the old courthouse to house an expanded Kirn library. Basically, Norfolk is paying for a new library, an open road for traffic and LR, and continued tax dollars from 500 Granby and whatever develops on the Greyhound site.

I think Norfolk and the Commonwealth would much rather sacrifice the building to the south and portions of Monticello than shell out $40M bones to make up that difference. It's not worth that kind of money.

[vdogg]

I think Norfolk and the Commonwealth would much rather sacrifice the building to the south and portions of Monticello than shell out $40M bones to make up that difference. It's not worth that kind of money.

Indeed. I have the feeling that this is gonna drag out for years through a series of lawsuits, etc. I would rather let that situation play out than pay the GSA to take taxable land from us. I feel for those who wish to preserve Baxters (though I still question its architectural value) as I do for the people who now call this home. I am left to wonder however, the tenants of this building must of had some prior knowledge of this being a possibilty. Mr. Wright for sure had to know as its been public knowledge for years that the southern site would be the future site of a courts expansion (even to the point that it persuaded Mr. Gadams to build Granby where it is). If Mr. Wright did know and through omission his tenants did not, that in itself is another situation to ponder. I really hope for the best possible solution for all parties involved in this but I fear that someone is gonna lose badly on this one, and it won't be the GSA.

[rusthebuss]

What i don't understand is that in other metros they approve the money for the new courthouses but not here! Why? what is it with this area?

[urbanlife]

Norfolk needs a new federal courthouse tower/city courthouses. It makes much more sense, it would also open up much more chances for grwoth for the city and would be good PR.

My question is, seeing that Granby 500 did give the GSA a chance to buy the building. I remember that offer before I moved in 2001, but the GSA turned him down because they were more interested in the site to the west. So he decided to renovate the building, while I was never a fan of the facade and thought more attention should of been paid to that, I do think that it is a good investment for the city and the GSA should eat crap for not biting onto the offer when they had the chance.

My question for the GSA would be, seeing the people who bought into Granby 500 have money, did the Feds think about budgeting all the lawsuits from the condo owners into the cost of the expansion? And when do they plan on building a "real" building, because this imaginary one that would cost them "money" seems like it may never happen in my lifetime. With the rising costs of steel, this expansion should of been done years ago. Now they have no site for it, no real budget for it, and no chance of it ever happening the way they want.

How could they give a budget if they can't give it a timeline. At this present moment this expansion will cost them somewhere between 40mil to 150mil.

And isn't just about all of downtown Norfolk in some sort of flood plan? Under that idea they should be moving to Hilltop in VB!

[hoobo]

I would rather let that situation play out than pay the GSA to take taxable land from us.

I'm not proposing to pay them to take taxable land. I'm talking about helping them build a new courthouse on land the City already owns like the Kirn library. It appears that the judges like the current location for one or both of two reasons: it is close to the restaurant part of downtown and it is only 4 stories. Relocating to the Greyhound site or the Civic Center would isolate them from their lunch-time fun. And being in a tall building will give them nosebleeds. Anyway, with the Kirn site, they could build a 7/8 story building on what is already non-taxed land. Once done with the new courthouse, the GSA would turn over the old courthouse to the City for use as a library or whatever it sees fit. No land currently on the tax roles is used.

[lil-bear]

It seems to me that the Downtown Plaza site which is owned by the city, would be a perfect location for a city/federal court complex. In addition, the city could give a parcel of the land to the feds, buy the old building from the feds and convert it to a new library.

The Kirn site is supposed to become the new HQ for HRT, plus that site will be disected by the LR line so a federal couthouse can't go there.

By placing all the courts together(maybe in 3 separate towers) they could all share a huge parking garage.

The Federal Courts Tower

The Curcuit Courts Tower

The Juvenile & Domestic Courts Tower

I like that idea so much better!

[Chesapeake Pirate]

Norfolk city officials express shock and amazement at the GSA suggestion to entirely close Monticello between the courthouse and the Scope plaza:

Norfolk is shocked by GSA

[rusthebuss]

Norfolk city officials express shock and amazement at the GSA suggestion to entirely close Monticello between the courthouse and the Scope plaza:

Norfolk is shocked by GSA

How about the beotchs just leave the city and go somewhere else. These guys are f***n stupid. I'm so freakn mad right now. The city should tell them to move to Chesapeake or Vabeach and leave our city!

[vdogg]

Norfolk city officials express shock and amazement at the GSA suggestion to entirely close Monticello between the courthouse and the Scope plaza:

Norfolk is shocked by GSA

There are no words!

How about the beotchs just leave the city and go somewhere else. These guys are f***n stupid. I'm so freakn mad right now. The city should tell them to move to Chesapeake or Vabeach and leave our city!

In the past I would've said you were overeacting, now I think it's time to start pushing for a DT Norfolk without the federal courts.

[vdogg]

These people are seriously the worst case of uninvited house guest i've ever seen. I mean go the *@$%# home

already!

I stand by my earlier statement, someone is going to lose big on this one and it's not the GSA. I'm surprised that in the article they did not mention that another problem with the east proposal is it lays smack in the middle of the light rail line. Will this jeopardize us getting our federal dollars for that line since the GSA now wants that land too? Is it impossible for the GSA not to screw up a project in Norfolk? This thing is getting ugly fast and will probably be a headache of ours for some time to come.

[vdogg]

Well, I guess it's time to start writing letters again.

For those interesting in sending an email directly to the GSA hee's the address [email protected]

or snailmail here

U.S. General Services Administration, attn. John Morrell, project manager, Mid-Atlantic Region 3, 20 N. 8th St., 9th Floor, Philadelphia, PA 19107.

[vdogg]

A previous plan to give the federal government four of six lanes of Monticello Avenue for an annex that wraps around the courthouse was nixed because it lacked the necessary 20,000 square feet of land for the building

[urbanfan]

These people are seriously the worst case of uninvited house guest i've ever seen. I mean go the *@$%# home

already!

I stand by my earlier statement, someone is going to lose big on this one and it's not the GSA. I'm surprised that in the article they did not mention that another problem with the east proposal is it lays smack in the middle of the light rail line. Will this jeopardize us getting our federal dollars for that line since the GSA now wants that land too? Is it impossible for the GSA not to screw up a project in Norfolk? This thing is getting ugly fast and will probably be a headache of ours for some time to come.

This would not effect the light rail line. The line comes into monticello below the federal court buildings. That should be no problem. Leave it to the feds though.

[vdogg]

This would not effect the light rail line. The line comes into monticello below the federal court buildings. That should be no problem. Leave it to the feds though.

Ok, cool. Than i am not as opposed to this as I was in the previous posts but it still seems like a pretty stupid idea. I don't know though, how heavily traveled is that road? What they're talking about is reducing that section to one the size of Granby, not completely closing it. Would it really be all that bad? If it saves 500 Granby it may be worth it.

[rusthebuss]

Ok, cool. Than i am not as opposed to this as I was in the previous posts but it still seems like a pretty stupid idea. I don't know though, how heavily traveled is that road? What they're talking about is reducing that section to one the size of Granby, not completely closing it. Would it really be all that bad? If it saves 500 Granby it may be worth it.

I agree with you that there is going to be a really bad decision made by them. I'm bracing for the worst of all decisions to be the one they choose. I mean come on, Nashville is getting a brand new one but Norfolk can't get one???? Norfolk is planning a freakn new courthouse complex that the feds would fit in nicely. They need to clean that wax out of their ears and listen to what people have to say about how they are destroying our city.

[urbanlife]

If the city is already planning on building a new courts facility, it has to be a cheaper option for the feds to hop onto that idea (of course it is hard to convince a moron to do the right thing).

Granted, another suggestion, would be to move their asses out to Canary Island, they would be safe on that little fortress island.

[rusthebuss]

If the city is already planning on building a new courts facility, it has to be a cheaper option for the feds to hop onto that idea (of course it is hard to convince a moron to do the right thing).

Granted, another suggestion, would be to move their asses out to Canary Island, they would be safe on that little fortress island.

Actually the city has offered that idea to them and they shot it down. MORONS! They said they weren't approved for a new courthouse just a addition, so its out of the question. I think we should run them out of the city!

[Chesapeake Pirate]

Actually the city has offered that idea to them and they shot it down. MORONS! They said they weren't approved for a new courthouse just a addition, so its out of the question. I think we should run them out of the city!

That's where things get a little dicey. Norfolk obviously does not want to lose the Federal Courthouse to a neighboring city, and GSA gently has "threatened" that as a possibility at the first public hearing.

It's pathetic. Our US representatives and senators and staffers are all the time running back and forth from their offices to the Capital, either walking or using that private subway, and apparently a few Norfolk judges and clerks would have a heart attack if they had to walk through a tunnel under Brambleton Avenue to get to a courtroom in a new annex.

It would be such a shame to lose the vitality off 500 Granby with 24 residences and Baxters, and the annual property taxes and sales taxes and turn it into a block that goes dark at 5pm.

[vdogg]

Where do we go from here?

Although the author seems to have somewhat of a chip on his shoulder about Granby Tower , this is a well written article and asks some key questions. It also points out that most people at the meeting were for the GSA moving to the east, only the city was against it. Interesting stuff.

[Chesapeake Pirate]

Where do we go from here?

Although the author seems to have somewhat of a chip on his shoulder about Granby Tower , this is a well written article and asks some key questions. It also points out that most people at the meeting were for the GSA moving to the east, only the city was against it. Interesting stuff.

One misstatement in the article is that the GSA did state that they desire the annex to be able to add about six new courtrooms.

The writer did a great job capturing the mood and tone of the hearing.

[hoobo]

That's where things get a little dicey. Norfolk obviously does not want to lose the Federal Courthouse to a neighboring city, and GSA gently has "threatened" that as a possibility at the first public hearing.

The GSA is willing to build a new courthouse in another city, yet doesn't have the money to build a new one in Norfolk? That makes no....wait, it's the government. Nevermind.

[rusthebuss]

The GSA is willing to build a new courthouse in another city, yet doesn't have the money to build a new one in Norfolk? That makes no....wait, it's the government. Nevermind.

To funny dude!

[rmandle]

I attended the GSA Scoping meeting recently held at Kirn Memorial Library for the Courthouse expansion. What has been bothering me is the misrepresentation and mis-presentation of facts as well as the use of Federal Regulation. Let me summarize:

First, They consistently quote an executive order that prohibits them from building in flood plains. Here is the link to the EO (http://www.fema.gov/library/eo11988.shtm). The EO defines flood plain as a 1% chance of a flood in a given year. This translates into a 100-year flood plain. No reference to 500 year flood plains are contained within the Order.

Secondly, the Order does NOT prohibit development it simply states that alternatives must be sought and considered and when not practicable mitigation must be implemented to minimize disruption of the flood plain as well as potential damage from a flood.

Third, I pointed out to GSA that they were misrepresenting the EO in that THEIR AGENCY policy is to not construct in 500-year flood plains. in other words, they are continuously pointing to the EO as the reason that their hands are tied with respect to the North site.

Fourth, in reaction to this comment, they simply stated, that the presence of 2-linear feet of 100-year flood plain in on the Bus Station site automatically prevents the entire site from being utilized (see comment 1!!!) not to mention the potential "historical significance" of the Greyhound bus station.

Fifth, GSA continuously states that crossing Brambleton is not acceptable given the cost of duplicate security services, a connection tunnel, etc. Yet, they revealed that the western site (across Granby) was in fact their preferred alternative before the city proposed the closure of lanes of Monticello. Thus, they are ready and willing to cross streets, just not Brambleton. Surely it will cost more to do so (i.e., longer tunnel), but they will need to present this cost benefit analysis before taking peoples homes for an amount of money surely to be mindboggling!

Sixth, their architectural consultant/team member said at the meeting in November that it was not possible to relate a building across Brambleton. The job of an architect is to come up with solutions to these kinds of issues. Time for a new architect?

[rusthebuss]

First welcome to the forum . I'm wondering with all the time and money they spend on taking peoples property and then building the new building that they will end up spending more than if they just constructed a new building. I think they should look at relocating with the city's new courthouse location. I'm sure the city will be glad to give them the land and leave these developments alone. I like how you broke it down too! Thanks for keeping us informed too! I never new they were trying to pull a slick one with misquoting a article or code. Doesn't surprise me though