Triangle Towne Center

[tjoad]

Where is C&Cs going in Triangle Town Center? The old Bamboo Club space near Californian Pizza Kitchen/Champps/B&N? Near Poynter Place? They opened an Applebees out there a few months ago.

It is indeed in the old Bamboo Club.

G&G (not C&C ) is a unique concept which seems like it would work in various locations; the success of each individual location will likely vary. I have not been to G&G so I don't know their style, but it will be interesting to see the success of these two very different locations.

[Jones_]

....I was equating "fine dining" in my mind with something like 518 and "casual" as something like Two Guys, but I think Webguy, you are probably correct that they are referring to industry standards for those terms and not speaking relative to the contents of my wallet....

[StevenRocks]

I had a chance to walk through the mall tonight. The indoor portion looks healthy, though the high number of temporary looking tenants concerns me.

The outdoor portion is another story. It's very, very dead. People are using it to walk through, to be sure, but the foot traffic is not translating into sales apparently. There were several empty spaces and at least a couple of fly-by-night tenants.

[Gard]

I had a chance to walk through the mall tonight. The indoor portion looks healthy, though the high number of temporary looking tenants concerns me.

The outdoor portion is another story. It's very, very dead. People are using it to walk through, to be sure, but the foot traffic is not translating into sales apparently. There were several empty spaces and at least a couple of fly-by-night tenants.

Which tenants inside would you be talking about? Many of the tenants with store fronts have been there for at the minimum 6 months now. Some of the cart vendors have even been there over a year now. I really don't see which tenants you would consider "temporary."

As for the outside, yeah, that spot has a load of empty spots. The only temp place out there though is the haloween store. Most of the rest of them have been there for years now. The restaurants seem to do pretty good out there. There isn't a time that I visit those restaurants where I have to be put on a waiting list. Many of those empty spaces out there have never even had a single tenant in them. Others that have had been odd things that have a very small market, like a piano seller.

[StevenRocks]

Which tenants inside would you be talking about? Many of the tenants with store fronts have been there for at the minimum 6 months now. Some of the cart vendors have even been there over a year now. I really don't see which tenants you would consider "temporary."

Several tenants I saw, like A Woman By Design, Oriental Vogue, Footstep, and Flashback, seem to look they're there for the short term. They may do pretty good business, but they don't look like stores with longevity.

As for the outside, yeah, that spot has a load of empty spots. The only temp place out there though is the haloween store. Most of the rest of them have been there for years now. The restaurants seem to do pretty good out there. There isn't a time that I visit those restaurants where I have to be put on a waiting list. Many of those empty spaces out there have never even had a single tenant in them. Others that have had been odd things that have a very small market, like a piano seller.

They really should have done their outdoor portion like Southpoint and placed both restaurants and destination stores along it to make people want to use the outdoor walkways. As it is, most people who want to dine outside can park next to the restaurant and barely pass by the other shops.

[Gard]

Several tenants I saw, like A Woman By Design, Oriental Vogue, Footstep, and Flashback, seem to look they're there for the short term. They may do pretty good business, but they don't look like stores with longevity.

A Woman by Design has been there about year now, Footstep and Flashback about 8 months and Oriental Vogue was actually in a smaller space at the mall and because it has been doing so well, they moved into their current location that is more than double the size. Oriental Vogue also has a location at Crabtree. All of them are owned my small business owners who probably don't have the capital to put into making flashy stores like the larger business do. Personally, I'd much rather see a bunch of unique stores owned by small business owners than just more of the same soulless chain stores and I'm happy that TTC is giving them a chance.

[Jones_]

Several tenants I saw, like A Woman By Design, Oriental Vogue, Footstep, and Flashback, seem to look they're there for the short term. They may do pretty good business, but they don't look like stores with longevity.

They really should have done their outdoor portion like Southpoint and placed both restaurants and destination stores along it to make people want to use the outdoor walkways. As it is, most people who want to dine outside can park next to the restaurant and barely pass by the other shops.

i always thought the movie theater being at the end of Southpoints outdoor strip was key too. Thats about as destination as you can get.TTC's outdoor area seems like lip service with no real thought given to how it would function and draw people in. I had assumed originally that the food court and outdoor area would be tied together directly and was surprised when TTC opened that they were not....seems like the food court and outdoor area are weak at TTC as compared to Southpoint IMO...dunno,just wondering out loud...

[StevenRocks]

You'd think with some of the nation's most prominent retail designers working on the initial development of TTC, locating an anchor to lure people outside would have been a no-brainer.

[Gard]

Yeah I don't know why they designed it the way they did outside. Maybe they considered Orvis an anchor (not to say that store is all that bad) .

[ncwebguy]

The "Commons" area has had several issues. The "creek" splits the area in two and is the right/wrong size to be more of an annoyance than a feature. The hill in the middle destroys (maybe intentionally?) the line of sight from the Orvis to B&N/CPK. At Southpoint, the Apple Store/B&N/Pottery Barn combo "anchors" the middle, enticing shoppers to go at least that far, and maybe stop at a few other places along the way.

The "motiviation" to walk from the mall to the end isn't there, especially for the teen/early 20s set. At Southpoint there is the movie theater, American Apparel, and Cheesecake Factory. At TTC, Orvis, and I guess now Flashback. It also used to be a temp store (between Macy's and Saks) that seem to have caught some traction, so moving out there might generate some traffic, but that and the Oriental Vogue don't exactly scream "we're really worth the walk!" Mitchells salon/spa is mostly a destination unto itself. There may be some "hair and shopping" types, but that number is probably very small. Even though Dicks is a sporting goods store, I rareley see anyone walking from the mall to the store. Everyone seems to just park in the lot. Maybe trips there are different than mall trips, but I don't think I've seen anyone carrying a DSG bag through the interior part of the mall. No one is going to carry weights, golf clubs, etc. but I could see someone picking up a shirt and/or pair of shoes as part of an overall mall visit.

The Bamboo Club space has been an albatross for a while, opening a year after the rest of the mall then being closed for months without a new tenant in sight until recently. A big, empty space as one of the first things seen when walking outside has been a big deterrent to exploring the outside area.

If the outside area "flowed" from the food court on the other side of the mall, and had B&N and California Pizza kitchen as "outside" tenants and not "mall" tenants, it would attract a lot more traffic. Or if the food court *was* the corridor (already has the pretzel space, Cinnabon, and used to have marble slab ice cream), CPK could stay where it is, and the B&N space could be a two story food/play area, with B&N outside (next to Chammps) and more.

Inside, to me, the second floor near Dillards seemed like a collection of "filler" locally owned stores. The sports apparel/stuff and a couple of clothing stores say "national retailers don't want to be here, they're downstairs or at the Saks/Macys end.

[Gard]

The "Commons" area has had several issues. The "creek" splits the area in two and is the right/wrong size to be more of an annoyance than a feature. The hill in the middle destroys (maybe intentionally?) the line of sight from the Orvis to B&N/CPK. At Southpoint, the Apple Store/B&N/Pottery Barn combo "anchors" the middle, enticing shoppers to go at least that far, and maybe stop at a few other places along the way.

The "motiviation" to walk from the mall to the end isn't there, especially for the teen/early 20s set. At Southpoint there is the movie theater, American Apparel, and Cheesecake Factory. At TTC, Orvis, and I guess now Flashback. It also used to be a temp store (between Macy's and Saks) that seem to have caught some traction, so moving out there might generate some traffic, but that and the Oriental Vogue don't exactly scream "we're really worth the walk!" Mitchells salon/spa is mostly a destination unto itself. There may be some "hair and shopping" types, but that number is probably very small. Even though Dicks is a sporting goods store, I rareley see anyone walking from the mall to the store. Everyone seems to just park in the lot. Maybe trips there are different than mall trips, but I don't think I've seen anyone carrying a DSG bag through the interior part of the mall. No one is going to carry weights, golf clubs, etc. but I could see someone picking up a shirt and/or pair of shoes as part of an overall mall visit.

The Bamboo Club space has been an albatross for a while, opening a year after the rest of the mall then being closed for months without a new tenant in sight until recently. A big, empty space as one of the first things seen when walking outside has been a big deterrent to exploring the outside area.

If the outside area "flowed" from the food court on the other side of the mall, and had B&N and California Pizza kitchen as "outside" tenants and not "mall" tenants, it would attract a lot more traffic. Or if the food court *was* the corridor (already has the pretzel space, Cinnabon, and used to have marble slab ice cream), CPK could stay where it is, and the B&N space could be a two story food/play area, with B&N outside (next to Chammps) and more.

Inside, to me, the second floor near Dillards seemed like a collection of "filler" locally owned stores. The sports apparel/stuff and a couple of clothing stores say "national retailers don't want to be here, they're downstairs or at the Saks/Macys end.

Flashback and Oriental Vogue are still inside the mall. The tail end of the commons is still Orvis and Mens Wearhouse. Only other things out there are Twisted Fork, Floozies (or something like that), Teds Montana Grill, a couple women's clothing stores, Archivers (a scrapbooking stores that seems to be a goldmine), Moes, Champps, Himilaian Frontiers, Cinellis, Michell Spa and Halloween Express. The rest is empty. The problem with Dicks is you have to cross a street with crazy traffic with no street light to let pedestrians cross. What they need is either a light or a walking bridge over the street. I don't blame anyone for not walking across, its like asking to die at times. Another major problem is the parking is from one end of this outdoor area to the other and right behind it, so people can just park behind the store they want to visit and go in and out, with no reason to walk through the whole thing.

[blburton]

I've only driven by TTC a few times, but it seems that the comments posted about this mall are mediocre at best. Does anyone think it will be defunct by its 10 year anniversary?... not a good thing to see short term shops in a mall that's not even 5 years old.

[StevenRocks]

^It won't be dead, but it's going to require some reconfiguration to keep going at a positive pace.

Having Dick's across a four-lane highway form the rest of the mall cuts down on the pedestrian traffic. Actually, all the stuff across the street with Dick's should have been at the mall instead of Swoozie's and the like. Orvis and Men's Wearhouse aren't incentive enough to walk from he mall to the end.

The Dillard's/Sears end of the mall is a corridor of crap. There's a few quality stores along there, bust mostly, like ncwebguy said, "national retailers don't want to be [there]"

[Gard]

I've only driven by TTC a few times, but it seems that the comments posted about this mall are mediocre at best. Does anyone think it will be defunct by its 10 year anniversary?... not a good thing to see short term shops in a mall that's not even 5 years old.

I don't see it going defunt that soon. The part that is mediocre is the outside and the entire mall area is booming with construction all around it. I fail to see where small business owners=short term. If that is the case, might as well consider Glenwood South as having all short term tenants that will come and go. I find it funny how some can strongly desire locally owned shops downtown, but quickly bash a mall for allowing them in. If the same stores were downtown, many would probably love them all of a sudden because of their location and no longer be labeled "temporary." I've seen some of the very shops owned by small business owners in TTC also having locations in Crabtree, does that make Crabtree defunct too? The ratio of chain stores vs. the locally owned ones there is by far in the chain stores favor. I'm beginning to think the only reason everyone loves to hate TTC is because of its location on the outskirts of the burbs.

[Jones_]

My personal distaste is much more for Capital Blvd. TTC though is a functional mall for me..I go to Mitchells, buy my Khakis at Belk and buy my casual clothes at AE and Gap. But I cringe at the Capital Blvd crawl I have to endure...from either direction. Capital has already proven it is a retail killer. Demographics and the physical build of transit around it combined with the missed oppurtunities to plan the place better, I think will place it firmly as the functional place I use it for, but not the destination spot people drive to at christmas like Crabtree and and Southpoint. Not to hate too much on CB though, I think Walgreens will fill an important mid-size daily retail need....that was of course for you Gard....

[Gard]

My personal distaste is much more for Capital Blvd. TTC though is a functional mall for me..I go to Mitchells, buy my Khakis at Belk and buy my casual clothes at AE and Gap. But I cringe at the Capital Blvd crawl I have to endure...from either direction. Capital has already proven it is a retail killer. Demographics and the physical build of transit around it combined with the missed oppurtunities to plan the place better, I think will place it firmly as the functional place I use it for, but not the destination spot people drive to at christmas like Crabtree and and Southpoint. Not to hate too much on CB though, I think Walgreens will fill an important mid-size daily retail need....that was of course for you Gard....

I understand where your coming from on the traffic, Jones. I have to travel Capital to work everyday and it takes me around 20 minutes just to get off the road I live on and onto Capital. I had written a letter to the editor a while back complaining about the horrific traffic and apparently they had published it along with my email address because I got an email about it from Meeker and other city council members, which really surprised me and Meeker had directed the transportation director to get back to us on why the street I live on is like this, in which he basically responded to us that it is a state owned street (rather dumb considering the road is nearly all residential) but the city has a multi million dollar project in the works for the road and will start taking the right of way in the spring. Aside from that, I would have to disagree about TTC not being a Christmas spot like Crabtree or Southpoint. The last couple years the TTC has been such a zoo that the city has had cops out there directing traffic in and out of all points of the mall. It took me nearly an hour to get out of the parking lot on Christmas eve day last year. Walgreens will certainly be a good development across from CVS and could possibly attract some other small tenants to the shopping center behind it. I'm still mad at them though for stealing the spot Hardees was at just up the street at the Capital/New Hope intersection. I liked that Hardees lol. Thanks for posting Jones .

[ncwebguy]

I don't think the locally owned stores are a bad thing. They have their place as a way to fill smaller spaces and as carts/kiosks in the middle. But Triangle Town Center, a mall with a Saks Fifth Avenue, seems to rely a bit too heavily on local stores. A mall at that "level" and close to North Raleigh/Wakefield/Wake Forest should have a few more higher end retailers -- Banna Republic, Pottery Barn non-kids (though Z Gallery is nice/different) etc.

I liked that they had Ten Thousand Villages last holiday season, and they could be a good permanent tenant if they could afford the rent. But the sports nick knacks store and some of the clothing stores near Dillards don't seem like stores with local appeal/feel. There are a few stores like those that have been open for years downtown -- along the Wilmington Street corridor and Baggio on Hargett.

Crabtree has the seasonal stores -- Halloween, Christmas, Calendar Club, etc. I don't know why, but I consider Crabtree's Rack Room as better than TTC's Shoe Department store. Crabtree's local stores -- Leather and Luggage, Pharros, etc. are less obvious than their TTC counterparts.

TTC's proximity to North Raleigh/540, along with the continued growth of the Capitol/401/Knightdale corridor, will funnel shoppers there vs. Crabtree and Southpoint.

[StevenRocks]

I don't think the locally owned stores are a bad thing. They have their place as a way to fill smaller spaces and as carts/kiosks in the middle. But Triangle Town Center, a mall with a Saks Fifth Avenue, seems to rely a bit too heavily on local stores. A mall at that "level" and close to North Raleigh/Wakefield/Wake Forest should have a few more higher end retailers -- Banna Republic, Pottery Barn non-kids (though Z Gallery is nice/different) etc.

Exactly. A little local flavor is great (like Cameron Village). A bunch of locally-owned generic mall tenants show a sign of retail weakness.

[ncwebguy]

Why/how did TTC (and Southpoint) get away with having so few traffic lights? That is why the police are out there during the holidays. There should be one somewhere on Sumner between Capitol and Triangle Towne Blvd and one on Old Wake Forest (I don't remember if there is one there or not).

It is surrounded by four lane (or more) roads, yet has zero or one signal to control traffic going to and from the mall. Crabtree has three, North Hills has two, Southpoint has one (though two "sides" are the waste land to the west and I-40). I wonder what are the costs of staffing police officers there vs. installing traffic lights.

[Gard]

Why/how did TTC (and Southpoint) get away with having so few traffic lights? That is why the police are out there during the holidays. There should be one somewhere on Sumner between Capitol and Triangle Towne Blvd and one on Old Wake Forest (I don't remember if there is one there or not).

It is surrounded by four lane (or more) roads, yet has zero or one signal to control traffic going to and from the mall. Crabtree has three, North Hills has two, Southpoint has one (though two "sides" are the waste land to the west and I-40). I wonder what are the costs of staffing police officers there vs. installing traffic lights.

Sadly the only one there is between Capital and Triangle Towne Blvd is the one at the intersection of Old Wake Forest and Triangle Towne Blvd. On some days it can be really miserable getting in an out of the mall. People around there hardly ever follow the speed limit and with no traffic signals, it can be really nasty at times.

[Cary NC]

Do you think building a mall in the SE end of the county between Knightdale and Garner would help relieve some of the mall traffic at TTC? I mean maybe even a Cary Towne Center size mall that would draw people from Knightdale to Clayton to Garner and of course SE Raleigh.

[Gard]

Do you think building a mall in the SE end of the county between Knightdale and Garner would help relieve some of the mall traffic at TTC? I mean maybe even a Cary Towne Center size mall that would draw people from Knightdale to Clayton to Garner and of course SE Raleigh.

I'm really not sure, being that I don't know how much of the traffic in the TTC area is generated by that part of town. I aslo don't believe it would be a good idea to have another mall built at a time when we are trying to get sprawl under control. A new mall would only create more of that and more seas of parking lots. I think our best bet is just to keep it (the traffic) at Crabtree and TTC, which will make it easier to fill in the empty storefronts in those areas, in particular at all the new projects around TTC. TTC also has many empty spots on the property that could be used in the future for restaurants and other infill. The area is starting to gain some infill, with hhgregg and some other smaller stores building in the Kmart parking lot. A Hilton Garden hotel is also being built adjacent to Arbys, which will be the area's first. So all in all, I think the traffic will help transform this area more than anything, provided the city stays in tune with the area and promotes smart growth around it instead of just more shopping centers.

[Tayfromcarolina]

Just a quick note. At Triangle Town Center in Raleigh, Italian restaurant Gianni and Gaitanos is open It is a long overdue Italian Themed resturant which is a hybrid, with both carry out and Fine Dining Portions. A nice addition to the mix at the mall I must say.

[ncwebguy]

I met a friend up at TTC on Saturday. It was a crazy experience, to say the least. I parked by Bed Bath and Beyond/Dick's Sporting goods and crossed to the outdoor area. I still think the mall entrances should have had traffic signals. The mall cops directing traffic were letting people out of the mall as much as possible because the circulator road on mall property looked like it was jammed all the way around. The poor parking design does *not* hold up for holiday shopping, and the Capital Blvd. bus seemed to be running late, as there were people waiting at several stops along Capitol itself.

The outside "town commons" had low traffic, even though Southpoint seems to do well even in bad weather, as does North Hills. Inside the mall wasn't too hard to get around. A few stores had little to no traffic, but most of the stores, including the new Gamefrog Cafe (PC and console rental by the hour/arcade replacement), on the ground floor in front of Macy's, were quite busy.

I hate that I had to drive to get to the Panera across Capital, but that stretch this time of year is a pedestrian nightmare.

[Gard]

I met a friend up at TTC on Saturday. It was a crazy experience, to say the least. I parked by Bed Bath and Beyond/Dick's Sporting goods and crossed to the outdoor area. I still think the mall entrances should have had traffic signals. The mall cops directing traffic were letting people out of the mall as much as possible because the circulator road on mall property looked like it was jammed all the way around. The poor parking design does *not* hold up for holiday shopping, and the Capital Blvd. bus seemed to be running late, as there were people waiting at several stops along Capitol itself.

The outside "town commons" had low traffic, even though Southpoint seems to do well even in bad weather, as does North Hills. Inside the mall wasn't too hard to get around. A few stores had little to no traffic, but most of the stores, including the new Gamefrog Cafe (PC and console rental by the hour/arcade replacement), on the ground floor in front of Macy's, were quite busy.

I hate that I had to drive to get to the Panera across Capital, but that stretch this time of year is a pedestrian nightmare.

Agreed on all of the above. I cannot begin to understand why they have no traffic lights around TTC. When you have mall and city police (city police where out there Sunday night anyways) out there directing traffic, its time to put a light up. The city probably pays more in overtime, among other things, for cops to be out there directing traffic than putting up a light would cost. The outside area stays pretty dead when the weather isn't ideal. When the weather is great, like it was a couple days ago, there are people using the outdoor eating areas and kids running around the open spaces around the fountain, giving it some life. Capital itself could really use some better lighting for pedestrians. I was driving Capital and nearly hit someone that was crossing Capital because he couldn't be seen until I was about on top of him, though wearing all black wasn't that bright of an idea on his part, not to mention even attempting to cross. crossing Capital = real-life Frogger. I'll give them credit on finally connecting the Kmart plaza with TTC.