Triangle Towne Center

[orulz]

I don't know about you guys, but what I want to see more than anything else is for Belk to move back downtown, with a full-sized store- both here in Raleigh and in Charlotte. I realize there are Belk "Express" stores at Cameron Village and in Overstreet in Charlotte, but those are tiny. With Belk's roots in Charlotte and Hudson's roots in Raleigh, it would be a great statement if they had nice downtown stores in both cities. I'm hoping for somewhat of a flagship store - if not in size, in class and style.

Belk certainly won't do it unless it makes business sense, but I hope things move in that direction quickly. I think Charlotte will get there sooner than Raleigh, but neither city is there just yet.

[StevenRocks]

I don't know if the interest in there on Belk's part, but it might be a good thing to have downtown stores again.

[dmccall]

Why would I want to shop at a Belk store that isn't as good as Crabtree's?

Why would I want to shop at the Gap downtown when I have 4 other places to go, all have a store at Crabtree?

Why would I want to shop downtown where I have to pay for parking and walk around in the rain/wind/cold?

Why would I want to shop downtown where I have to peel off panhandlers. The cops cannot arrest them because there is no "crime" committed (although what they've done to downtown IS a crime). At Crabtree security can escort people off of the property for whatever reason they want.

These 4 questions explain why downtown retail and North Hills Mall fell on their faces. Until we can effectively answer these questions, I'd asked City Hall to quit wasting my money constructing flop after flop after flop (FS Mall, City Market, etc).

[orulz]

Why would I want to shop at a Belk store that isn't as good as Crabtree's?

That's a good point, but then again, there are plenty of cities smaller than Raleigh that have more than one Belk store. Often, one of these stores is distinctly better than the other, and yet they both survive. Presumably, a downtown Belk would only happen if there were enough market to support another store, and only if a downtown location made business sense.

Why would I want to shop at the Gap downtown when I have 4 other places to go, all have a store at Crabtree?

Presumably, a downtown Belk would not exist in a vacuum. If it were the only place to go downtown then of course it would be a flop. It may be hard to imagine right now, but at some point in the future, downtown Raleigh will have more stores and more restaurants, some of which might not exist even at mighty Crabtree. For example, a store like American Apparel. I don't think they have stores in malls.

Anyway, I'm not talking about next year or even the mythical "2008." This is long-term.

Why would I want to shop downtown where I have to pay for parking and walk around in the rain/wind/cold?

Another good point, but I think this is more about perception than reality. Downtown parking in the evenings and on the weekends is free. You don't have to pay if you leave the deck after 7:00pm. Raleigh's parking decks aren't far from Fayetteville Street either (there's one right on it for goodness sake) so you hardly have to walk further than you do at at a mall. But during the day on weekdays, you're right: it does cost money to park. But then again, when was the last time you went to Crabtree on a weekday afternoon?

You have to walk around in the wind/rain/cold in the "streets" section at Southpoint, and yet, lots of people still do it. How is downtown so different? Somehow, when you're downtown it sucks to be outside but when you're at Southpoint it's cool. When you're shopping you spend most of your time in stores anyway, so I think this is more about perception than reality - the climate-controlled environment at malls isn't as all-important as you might think.

Why would I want to shop downtown where I have to peel off panhandlers. The cops cannot arrest them because there is no "crime" committed (although what they've done to downtown IS a crime). At Crabtree security can escort people off of the property for whatever reason they want.

You definitely have a point. Social debate on panhandlers' rights and how the issue should be resolved aside, people hate being asked for money on the street. The controlled access and constant presence of security at shopping malls is very important and reassures the public that malls are safe (although particularly in the parking lots this is not absolutely so.) Controlled access to downtown is, of course, not possible.

However,...

To many people, an urban setting downtown has an appeal that a mall, be it Crabtree or North Hills or Atlantic Station, can't hope to duplicate, no matter how carefully they orchestrate the environment. Of course some people could care less, but at least to me, (window) shopping on the Magnificent Mile in Chicago is much more entertaining than wandering around Woodfield Mall in Schaumburg ever was. Raleigh ain't Chicago, but a downtown is a downtown no matter what city you're in.

I don't see your points as reasons that downtown retail is dead never to return. They are obstacles to be overcome. The market moves in cycles. Who knows what the future will bring.

[StevenRocks]

Why would I want to shop at a Belk store that isn't as good as Crabtree's?

Why would I want to shop at the Gap downtown when I have 4 other places to go, all have a store at Crabtree?

Why would I want to shop downtown where I have to pay for parking and walk around in the rain/wind/cold?

Why would I want to shop downtown where I have to peel off panhandlers. The cops cannot arrest them because there is no "crime" committed (although what they've done to downtown IS a crime). At Crabtree security can escort people off of the property for whatever reason they want.

These 4 questions explain why downtown retail and North Hills Mall fell on their faces. Until we can effectively answer these questions, I'd asked City Hall to quit wasting my money constructing flop after flop after flop (FS Mall, City Market, etc).

Who put a lump of coal in your stocking?

1) There are few stores in Belk's chain as good as Crabtree, period. By that rationale, I wouldn't shop at any of the other Triangle Hudson Belk stores, because none of them are as good.

A downtown Belk store wouldn't be a flagship, it would be location suited to the market that exists downtown. There may be more of an emphasis of career apparel or stuff that would appeal to hip young sophisticates that live in close proximity, or maybe downtown tourists.

2) The Gap is in a downward spiral as a company. Anyway, if there's enough of a neighborhood market, stores like the Gap will come. Nobody believed 15 years ago that Cameron Village would have as many chain stores as they have, but voila, there they are.

3) Maybe people wouldn't like to pay for parking, but the weather argument is trumped by the enormous poularity of The Streets at Southpoint's outdoor shopping area. A lot of people pick Southpoint bercause of the outdoor option, and regardless of weather, somebody's out there shopping and dining.

4) Panhandlers are a fact of life downtown. Progressive urban policy would dictate increased police patrols in shopping areas to remove as much of the criminal element as possible, but you'll never get rid of all of it. Further, the recent reports of mall violence coming from Charlotte proves that controlled environments still aren't perfectly secure.

Don't get me started on Crabtree security, BTW

______

Listen, I'm a mall fan and I really am not into downtown shopping as much, but the fact remains that a vibrant retail-based downtown is a doable goal and makes a city more interesting and popular with tourists, businesspeople and local residents.

As far as North Hills goes, I didn't shed many tears over its redevelopment. I miss the old mall, but the new town center is a lot more competitive and effective use for the property. If we can encouage more of this infill development, maybe we can control sprawl better and force more developers to think about integrating more sophisticated planning into their projects.

[dmccall]

Who put a lump of coal in your stocking?

Ha ha! Sorry to come across so Scrooge-like. I reread my post and just want to make sure you all know I was playing Devil's Advocate (I apologize for the timing of it!). I didn't really mean to imply that Fayetteville St. can't ever be a retail center so let's not even try. The four questions I raised are essentially what I'd assume Jane-White-Lady-With-Money would ask about shopping downtown when we have perfectly good alternatives.

So that said, I think the obstacles are: security, getting retailers to make a large enough commitment to make their store a good one, getting unique retailers that aren't already in the malls (this is a TOUGH one - even 5th Ave. in NYC is boring now), and making the whole perception of easy parking a reality.

To me the only way to have downtown retail action is to have one management company managing EVERYTHING on at least 3 blocks. I'm not holding my breath in this because no local government will ever admit that a private company can do a better job.

Well, that said, Merry Christmas to everyone!!

[StevenRocks]

The four questions I raised are essentially what I'd assume Jane-White-Lady-With-Money would ask about shopping downtown when we have perfectly good alternatives.

So that said, I think the obstacles are: security, getting retailers to make a large enough commitment to make their store a good one, getting unique retailers that aren't already in the malls (this is a TOUGH one - even 5th Ave. in NYC is boring now), and making the whole perception of easy parking a reality.

To me the only way to have downtown retail action is to have one management company managing EVERYTHING on at least 3 blocks. I'm not holding my breath in this because no local government will ever admit that a private company can do a better job.

Jane-White-Lady-With-Money, from my experience, will shop almost anywhere if you giver her a compelling enough reason to do so. Now the quest to find it....

[ncwebguy]

To me it seems TTC's outdoor street is no where near as popular as Southpoint's is. This may be due to the mix and placement of stores -- TTC leans heavily on restaurants close to the enclosed mall, while Southpoint's first restaurants are Champps and Maggiano's, a couple of "blocks" away. Also Southpoint is "anchored" at the end by a movie theater while TTC has Dick's Sporting Goods. 95%+ (I've been the only person to do it in my 3 or 4 times there) of people drive to Dick's instead of walking to it across the "speedway" from the Commons.

These lessons will hopefully be learned and applied to downtown raleigh. Don't let restaurants and bars "dominate" but don't elimiate them altogether either. I would go to Fayetville Street a lot more if Port City Java, Chick Fil A, Cafe Carolina, etc. didn't close up shop after the lunch rush and not open at all on weekends. Nightclubs occupy second floors (or basements) of office buildings, freeing up ground floor for retail/restaurant and there would be no effect on office space above since they have non-conflicting operating schedules. Mitch's, Rockford, Rush Lounge, and Stool Pigeons (and Five O RIP) pull this off without having "dead storefronts" during the day. It would be neat if "lifestyle centers" learned this trick (especially North Hills) but oh well... Nightclubs could also occupy the "alley" spaces east of Fayetville (like where the hidden Quiznos is) to link club hoppers to Wilmington Street and then on to Blount/City Market.

American Apparel (warning - uses Macromedia Flash) would be a good fit for Fayetville St., and somewhat symbolic being a few blocks south of the capitol of a state that has lost countless textile jobs in recent years. I went in their London store just to say thanks, but they just looked at me weird and I left. On a nice, sunny day, I think Jane White Moneybags might enjoy a day of outside shopping and sipping a latte/eating lunch than being trapped inside an enclosed mall and eating food court grub. Although she may like the smell of commerce in the morning.

A mix of "name/chain" stores and locally owned stores would be ideal (a la University Mall in Chapel Hill and North Hills somewhat), but not sure if this is possible. Franklin Street and Cameron Village have had high turnover in recent years because they are victims of their own success. Locally owned stores made those areas destination shopping -> landlords recognize this and up the rent per square foot -> chains like the high volume of foot traffic and can afford it -> mom and pop move or just close -> traffic subsides when shopper's favorite stores are gone -> chains leave due to weak sales (see Franklin Street Gap) -> shoppers get turned off walking by empty store fronts -> shoppers go back to the mall.

Southpoint and Northgate have had their fair share of shootings (with Northgate's turning deadly earlier this week) yet are perceived to be "safer" since they can "escort" someone off their property for wearing an offensive t-shirt. You can't go to the ground floor Southpoint bathrooms without being reminded that Big Brother is watching (for your protection, of course).

[DigitalSky]

To me it seems TTC's outdoor street is no where near as popular as Southpoint's is.

Yup.

Southpoint is between Chapel Hill and Duke, and off a major interstate I-40.. TTC is far out in the suburbs and off the outer loop.

[StevenRocks]

To me it seems TTC's outdoor street is no where near as popular as Southpoint's is. This may be due to the mix and placement of stores -- TTC leans heavily on restaurants close to the enclosed mall, while Southpoint's first restaurants are Champps and Maggiano's, a couple of "blocks" away. Also Southpoint is "anchored" at the end by a movie theater while TTC has Dick's Sporting Goods. 95%+ (I've been the only person to do it in my 3 or 4 times there) of people drive to Dick's instead of walking to it across the "speedway" from the Commons.

Having a four-lane highway seperating Dick's from the rest of the outdoor portion of TTC has to be a detriment to the attraction power of that store.

[Tayfromcarolina]

Hmm. Always crowded when I've been to Dicks Sporting goods at TTC. Also when 540 connects to 64 I would expect the mall to pick up a lot more traffic because then you will get the people coming in town from down east visiting the mall.

[ncwebguy]

Southpoint is between Chapel Hill and Duke, and off a major interstate I-40.. TTC is far out in the suburbs and off the outer loop.

South Square was closer to UNC and Duke, not that far off I-40, and connected to it via 15-501. It also had a movie theater, though not the multiplexes of today. But it "lost" to Northgate, nowhere near I-40, or UNC, and on a stretch of 85 with traffic patterns similar to that of 540.

Crabtree is off a loop, not near a major interstate, and not close to any universities, but holds its own as well, without a "street" other than Barnes and Nobles/Toys R Us/Pier 1.

Would TTC be as successful as Southpoint if it was in that location and the "street" was under construction when the mall opened? I don't know. I think Dick's would be a good tenant for the former Organized Living building, but some serious work would need to be done to the building.

The TTC Dick's had the benefit of the built in customer base it inherited from the temporary location on Capital behind what used to be Vincents/Kenny Rogers Roaster. They try to link to it via sidewalks, but it might as well be in line with Party City, DSW, and Bed Bath and Beyond. It is admirable that they have seperate "parking lot" and "Commons sidewalk" entrances (for now). If the BBB/DSW/Party City were built closer to the street (and Poynter Place's smaller shops), the area would have a more urban/walkable feel with parking "hidden" behind the big boxes. But people have been conditioned to accept acres of asphalt. Ugh.

540 to 64 will help, and I think some eastside residents are slowly figuring out that taking New Hope to Capitol makes a trip to TTC as quick/quicker than Crabtree even without the outer loop.

[NCMike1981]

South Square was closer to UNC and Duke, not that far off I-40, and connected to it via 15-501. It also had a movie theater, though not the multiplexes of today. But it "lost" to Northgate, nowhere near I-40, or UNC, and on a stretch of 85 with traffic patterns similar to that of 540.

South Square lost to Southpoint, not Northgate...Northgate is still losing to Soutpoint but hasn't given up quite yet...South Square had it's own 2 or maybe 4 screen theater until the early '90's, then the Wynnsong theater opened up a few blocks away in the mid-late '90's with something like 8-12 screens to help make up for the loss of the South Square one. Northgate actually had a small theater until sometime in the mid '80's, not sure if it was replaced by another area theater or if it simply closed.

Dicks definately doesn't seem as if it belongs to the outdoor portion of TTC, that road is just way too wide for most people to feel comfortable walking across....

[StevenRocks]

Hmm. Always crowded when I've been to Dicks Sporting goods at TTC. Also when 540 connects to 64 I would expect the mall to pick up a lot more traffic because then you will get the people coming in town from down east visiting the mall.

What I meant is that nobody is walking to Dick's from the outdoor portion of the mall because they have to cross a four-lane highway.

[ChiefJoJo]

Also when 540 connects to 64 I would expect the mall to pick up a lot more traffic because then you will get the people coming in town from down east visiting the mall.

I almost never go to TTC, but I think this is one of the reasons the mall was built where it is. Easy access from Wakefield (high $$), Wake Forest, N. Raleigh (splits market with Crabtree) via US1/I540, and then opens up the market from Eastern Wake County and even Nash and Franklin Co once 540 is complete to US 64/264.

[avery]

I almost never go to TTC, but I think this is one of the reasons the mall was built where it is. Easy access from Wakefield (high $$), Wake Forest, N. Raleigh (splits market with Crabtree) via US1/I540, and then opens up the market from Eastern Wake County and even Nash and Franklin Co once 540 is complete to US 64/264.

I agree. I think TTC locale is to attract areas to the East and North of Raleigh. Folks in Clayton, Knightdale, Wake Forest will frequent TTC before Crabtree. Crabtree already has a solid market. It will only be a matter of time before there is a major mall in Holly Springs or Garner/Clayton area once the sprawl potential is realized.

[Tayfromcarolina]

Yep I have heard speculation of a Mall in the White Oak vicinity in Garner in about 7 years or so. Bring it on.

[avery]

Yep I have heard speculation of a Mall in the White Oak vicinity in Garner in about 7 years or so. Bring it on.

Seems appropriate given that every other big-box retailer is already out there.

[DigitalSky]

Is the Garner area ready for a mall?

[skizzot]

I go to Triangle Town Center a lot, since I live near it, but I am starting to think that it is a pathetic attempt at sprucing up that area of suburbia.

I mean, the stores are nice, the mall is very nice on the inside, but the area around it just stinks.

I tried to do something that shouldn't be very hard at all. I tried to walk to the Poyner Center (Target, Old Navy) from the food court and it is so hard to get there that it isn't even worth it. It would be much easier- and safer to drive there. There are thin sidewalks crossing the wide expanse of parking lots, busy roads with cars zooming with no care to pedestrians, the only plus is that there are marked crosswalks. There are no yield to pedestrian signs, speed bumps, or anything.

Also, trying to get from the outdoor pedestrian mall (Orvis, Champp's, etc.) to the Dick's Sporting goods across Sumner Blvd is hard too, although you only have to cross two streets (one not busy, one very busy- Sumner). The cars on Sumner hardly ever yeild to pedestrians, even though there is a marked crosswalk, a median, and signs. I wish there was either traffic calming measures or even a stoplight.

And, the new proposed mixed use area near the mall isn't going to do this area any good. More big box and usless office space. Don't even think of walking from the mall to here!

Any thoughts on this and any suggestions?

Am I the only one who sees this?

[DigitalSky]

I agree, as i've stated in other threads, i've always felt TTC has a "cold" feeling about it, it feels distant and sprawly.

[Raleighsfinest]

Why do I feel this is a made up story meant to counter the Garner mall proposal. Nice try!

[skizzot]

Why do I feel this is a made up story meant to counter the Garner mall proposal. Nice try!

No, I like the Garner Mall Proposal... in fact, I think it is very good for that area. I still think North Hills is the best mall type place in the Triangle anyway (that was a random thought). But I 100% support the Garner Mall!

Also, this story was not made up and I have asked other people and they don't like it either.

[Eastwestrob]

No, I like the Garner Mall Proposal... in fact, I think it is very good for that area. I still think North Hills is the best mall type place in the Triangle anyway (that was a random thought). But I 100% support the Garner Mall!

Also, this story was not made up and I have asked other people and they don't like it either.

I agree about the North Hills Mall being the best skizzot. Then I would choose Crabtree. As far as TTC goes ....I have been there once and did not care for it at all. What a waste of land.

[skizzot]

I think I should start a mall poll and see which is everyone's favorite.

I also think TTC is going to turn into a Briar Creek type of area... with more big box and parking and not into a good "City Focus Point" like North Hills.