Triangle Towne Center

[dmccall]

Does anyone do anything but b^tch about stuff these days?

I like that fact that TTC, SSP, and CVM all have their unique draws.

CVM

• Unique Stores: Best Belk in the area (especially for buying wedding gifts), Crate & Barrel, Harolds, Kanki.
  
• Good: Great location and parking is NEAR the mall
  
• Bad: Parking garage is tight, mall is somewhat dark and has old, closed in design
  

SSP

• Unique stores: Maggiano's, Nordstrom, Urban Outfitters
  
• Good: Great outdoor scene
  
• I-40 is a nightmare, Crime is high, and upstairs walkways are too narrow to get around morbidly obese shoppers.
  

TTC

[*]Unique Stores: Saks, Swoozies, Orvis, Z Gallerie.

[*]Good: Wide, carpeted upstairs good on feet, Easy access

[*]Bad: Feels empty, lacks energy, Concerns about client

[Redman84]

I was also kinda surprised to hear Ten Thousand Villages opened a location there. That just seems like an odd choice for their second Raleigh store. North Hills I could see...but TTC?? Contrast that with their first store in Cameron Village, as well as their Durham affiliate One World Market on Ninth Street, which are both full of the type of shoppers that are attracted to their product. So I just wonder what they were thinking.

Never been in the store, but I know where it is located in Cameron Village. Don't really know what sorts of goods they offer there, but regardless it would have been somewhat strange to put a store in North Hills if one exists already in Cameron Village. Since the two shopping centers are relatively close to each other and both draw from the same households, to me it wouldn't have made sense to place two stores two close together. But like I said, I am unfamilier with what they carry so, maybe two stores close together might would have worked with no problem.

[Jones_]

Does anyone do anything but b^tch about stuff these days?

I like that fact that TTC, SSP, and CVM all have their unique draws.

CVM

• Unique Stores: Best Belk in the area (especially for buying wedding gifts), Crate & Barrel, Harolds, Kanki.
  
• Good: Great location and parking is NEAR the mall
  
• Bad: Parking garage is tight, mall is somewhat dark and has old, closed in design
  

SSP

• Unique stores: Maggiano's, Nordstrom, Urban Outfitters
  
• Good: Great outdoor scene
  
• I-40 is a nightmare, Crime is high, and upstairs walkways are too narrow to get around morbidly obese shoppers.
  

TTC

[*]Unique Stores: Saks, Swoozies, Orvis, Z Gallerie.

[*]Good: Wide, carpeted upstairs good on feet, Easy access

[*]Bad: Feels empty, lacks energy, Concerns about client

[bullcity76]

Does anyone do anything but b^tch about stuff these days?

I like that fact that TTC, SSP, and CVM all have their unique draws.

SSP

• Unique stores: Maggiano's, Nordstrom, Urban Outfitters
  
• Good: Great outdoor scene
  
• I-40 is a nightmare, Crime is high, and upstairs walkways are too narrow to get around morbidly obese shoppers.
  

I can maybe agree on the walkways upstairs but I haven't seen it as a problem yet. I-40 and the crime are off-base. I have no problem getting to the mall off of I-40. I would think not having a parking deck is a weakness though. Parking can be ridiculous on most weekends.

[ChiefJoJo]

upstairs walkways are too narrow to get around morbidly obese shoppers.

Dana

SSP:

Best mall layout... traffic and parking is awful... my buddy was on the design team and he said the owner was 100% against a parking deck due to cost (might have had something to do with the required I-40 SPUI interchange rebuild). A rediculous parking situation and the fact that I remember when it was all just a pine forest with Fayetteville Rd as a 2-lane blacktop... now it's mall, apartments, Target, hotel, restaurant chain and strip mall hell... the tree-hugger in me has a tough time with that... I guess it's why if I have to go to a mall, I go to Crabtree (even if it was built in a flood plain ).

[Creasy336]

After going to TTC, i share the same feelings that the mall is dead and probably won't be able to sustain Saks much longer. One thing that could help would to do some better to do more things with the area aesthetically, the area looks like a large surburban wasteland where all the trees have been mowed. When I see TTC I think if the clientele isn't there then maybe they should bring it there (if you build it, they will come) how about making this mall into a real "town center"? constructing higher-end dense communities close to the mall and making the area around the mall pedestrian friendly.

[dmccall]

After going to TTC, i share the same feelings that the mall is dead and probably won't be able to sustain Saks much longer. One thing that could help would to do some better to do more things with the area aesthetically, the area looks like a large surburban wasteland where all the trees have been mowed.

Why does Southpoint get a free pass on this point? It is just as much of a cleared out swath as TTC. In fact, the advent of SSP killed South Square and it's mess of surrounding strip malls. So not only did it go into new territory, it created urban decay.

Jojo, did you mean Southpoint has the awful parking, Fayetteville Rd, I-40 issues? I agree with SSP's parking. Any time I've gone, we've had to park a long way from a mall entrance. I can zip in and out of Crabtree and park within throwing distance of an excellent mall entrance.

Actually crime and traffic issues with Southpoint really are a problem. Anyone coming from Raleigh in the afternoon has a daunting delay ahead of them if they rely on I-40. Anyone who was around the theater on the Saturday after Christmas will recall the roving gangs chasing someone THRU the theaters and out into the street area. This didn't make the news, as many other incidents with Durham gangs at that mall haven't.

[ChiefJoJo]

Jojo, did you mean Southpoint has the awful parking, Fayetteville Rd, I-40 issues? I agree with SSP's parking. Any time I've gone, we've had to park a long way from a mall entrance. I can zip in and out of Crabtree and park within throwing distance of an excellent mall entrance.

Yeah, I fixed it--meant SSP. Thanks. I think I've actually been to TTC only once. I hate Capital Blvd with a passion... try to avoid it at all costs.

[Tayfromcarolina]

The mall I dislike the most is Crabtree. It's just too much sometimes, especially with the parking and all.

And I just don't understand why TTC has gotten the short end of the stick on this thread. I like the fact that it has carpet, I think it gives it a more home like feeling therefore making it less "Hollow Feeling" Also on the occassions I have been the Mall has been extremely busy. Out of the big 3 Malls, the food court is always crowded it seems and has a great location in the scheme of the mall. In fact South Point's Food court has a terrible design, and is rarely full. And the parking at TTC is better than Southpointe, and certainly Crabtree, which can be nightmarish on holidays.

Plus when you consider that now 540 is now a complete arch around the northern half of the city it will began to see much much more traffic coming from highway 95, 64 and 70 therefore making it much more accessible. Sotuhpointe and Crabtree were already on established interstate routes, that alone would make them busier. I think that it is just now entering "Phase II". My cousin is a manager at a Jewelry Store in TTC. And reports that that store actually is the 3nd best performing in the whole region, behind some mall in upper Virginia and Southpark in Charlotte.

U just watch TTC has yet to come into it's own.

[Jones_]

And I just don't understand why TTC has gotten the short end of the stick on this thread. I like the fact that it has carpet, I think it gives it a more home like feeling therefore making it less "Hollow Feeling" Also on the occassions I have been the Mall has been extremely busy. Out of the big 3 Malls, the food court is always crowded it seems and has a great location in the scheme of the mall. In fact South Point's Food court has a terrible design, and is rarely full. And the parking at TTC is better than Southpointe, and certainly Crabtree, which can be nightmarish on holidays.

The carpet is a place where costs were cut. The TTC food court is the smallest of the three so naturally feels busier, and parking at TTC is easier because the parking lot is mostly vacant. SSP is crazy busy and the parking situation reflects this. I never have a problem parking at CCV and this Christmas in particular noticed the top level of the parking deck and many many places available on the two days I went.

[ChiefJoJo]

Plus when you consider that now 540 is now a complete arch around the northern half of the city it will began to see much much more traffic coming from highway 95, 64 and 70 therefore making it much more accessible.

Yeah, Tay, I was just going to make that point but you beat me too it...

The mall's access will immediately improve significantly with 540 going all the way to 64/264, and with all of the thousands of homes going up now in eastern Wake (Knightdale, Wendell, etc) that means plenty of new customers for TTC.

[ncwebguy]

It will take a while for TTC to get the uptick in traffic due to the 540 extension to 64 bypass. It would have helped a lot if it was done before the last holiday season, but nothing can be done about that now.

During my visit on Friday night, the mall seemed to be pretty busy. The bungee contraption on the main concourse near Sears and EB Games had a line/crowd till closing time. I don't like the food court, since they seem to "also rans" as place holders for the pizza (villa vs. something better), cheesesteak (steak escape is better IMO), hamburger (McDonalds vs. Five Guys), ice cream (what they have vs. Hagen Daas or Ben and Jerry's) and sandwich (Subway vs. anyone else) vendors. Chic-Fil-A and Sino Wok are the best options, but that with pitiful competition. On most days, I'd rather have Moe's in the outdoor portion than any of them. A by-the-slice version of California Pizza Kitchen would be cool, but probably not likely. Panera and Mimi's cafe locations nearby but offsite seems like a big loss. There is a golden opportunity with the former Bamboo Club space near Champps, but it has been empty for months.

The outdoor area could have been more appealing (and more dense) if there was a second story to most, if not all, of the buildings there. Only Barnes and Noble, Twisted Fork, and the Bamboo Club rise above the ground floor. The Mitchell's spa could have easily gone on *top* of Moe's and Pier One Kids, leaving more space for something else. As it is, it feels like a long walk to get to one or two places worth going to. A Doc Greens or other Raving Brands stores could make the outdoor part feel relevant. Another brand, Shane's Ribs is open near Old Navy.

To me, the three eating areas -- TTC food court, TTC outdoors, and Poyner Place by the lake -- plus outliers like Chilis/Macaroni Grill and Paneras/Ruby Tuesdays/Mimis spreads the dining options too thinly. I know this is because different developers own different parcels, but it destroys any sense of place the area could achieve.

I don't plan on buying anything at Saks, but did pick up a Raleigh snow globe in December. It was on the expensive side, but it is a nice coffee table conversation piece. That being said, Old Navy and Target are more attractive to the surrounding neighborhoods' demographics than Saks, and that likely won't change. Saks will need to draw heavily from Wakefileld, ITB, the North Raleigh 540 corridor and Durham/Chapel Hill shoppers willing to make the drive.

The Barnes and Nobles is not unique, but there are *no* other book stores in all of Raleigh east of the Falls of Neuse Books A Million and the two Borders on Six Forks -- near the Wake Forest and Strickland intersections. The TTC B&N always feels full of people, though I rarely see people using the non-Starbucks registers.

As for parking, it is usually easy to park somewhere along the outdoor area axis of TTC and walk to the B&N entrance. At Crabtree, I park near the second story Hechts entrance, and at SouthPoint I park near Belks (near Panera or the upper entrance) or Sears and usually get pretty close to the door.

Nearby, I went to the Circuit City and was not impressed. It felt like they were there only because there was a Best Buy nearby. The insane amount of asphalt in the "greater TTC area" from Super Target to Circuit City makes it unwalkable and unattractive to me. But there's plenty of other people, especially north and east of Raleigh, that will fuel development in the area for years to come.

[bullcity76]

Actually crime and traffic issues with Southpoint really are a problem. Anyone coming from Raleigh in the afternoon has a daunting delay ahead of them if they rely on I-40. Anyone who was around the theater on the Saturday after Christmas will recall the roving gangs chasing someone THRU the theaters and out into the street area. This didn't make the news, as many other incidents with Durham gangs at that mall haven't.

When a kid opens fire at a school in Hillsborough, people see it as isolated event and make proper security changes. Same thing with a fight between a bunch of kids. The Capital Blvd. area south of TTC has the same problems but I haven't seen the TTC or Raleigh labeled as crime-ridden. I'm not saying that stupid things don't happen in Durham but they happen across the Triangle (even in Cary or NC State football games).

Back on topic...As far as South Square is concerned, its pending death was sped up by SSP. The previous owners invested next to nothing in improving the mall. I attended a charette on how to redevelop the mall and it looked nothing like what's there now (it's still better than the old South Square IMHO). It is a healthy retail market despite SSP and New Hope Commons/Patterson Place. There are still some property owners that are cash-cowing the centers around there.

The TTC area will adapt and change over time. Will Saks stay or go? I just don't see a mall being anchored by ONE upscale tenant. They wanted two...along with matching upscale boutiques. I think the stores did more market research than the mall owners which is why the spaces have been slow to fill. The TTC area can support JC Penney, Sears, Macy's, Dillard's and Belk's plus the Gap's and whatever other stores normal people shop at...The anchor stores in general are there to draw foot traffic for the more profitable, numerous small stores in the mall.

[dmccall]

Here's a link to my secrets to making Crabtree parking easy.

[StevenRocks]

I'm an outsider on this compared to you guys, but if I'm getting in the car to come to the Triangle to shop, TTC isn't the first place I think of. Like I said earlier, I'll go to Saks out there, but not much else. It's one step above Cary Towne Center and Northgate Mall, perception-wise, for me.

Crabtree has always been a better shopping experince, though it's no longer cutting edge. Combined with North Hills though it favors comparably with the competition, with just the right amount of mass, class, inside, outside, national and local.

Streets at Southpoint accurately reflects how people like to shop and dine these days, but the omission of the parking deck is always going to be a liability until they build one.

[North_Raleigh_Guy]

I frequent both the TTC and Crabtree valley Mall and don't really prefer one over the other as they both seem pretty much the same to me. The only thing I don't like at Crabtree is the dense parking layout. Although it takes up less area becasue of the parkign garage the roads leading around the mall are poorly layed out and often crowded with many intersections that have 4 way stops that are often ignored by stressed-out drivers.

The only other thing bad about Crabtree is that it should have never been built in its current location. That is a flood plain that will only continue to be prone to flooding again in the future. The few locals I have encountered here told me the old pasture that used to be on that site flooded often in the past before the mall was built and adding all that impervious surface has just made the problem much worse. From an environmental / flooding standpoint Crabtree Valley Mall is a disaster.

[zt456]

Like the majority, Saks definitely needs to be at Crabtree. It's a perfect fit and I don't know what the management is smoking thinking of just putting some lame ass Belk home store there. I say move the Saks from Triangle to Crabtree and put a JCPenney in the old Saks space at Triangle.

[Jones_]

I'm an outsider on this compared to you guys, but if I'm getting in the car to come to the Triangle to shop, TTC isn't the first place I think of. Like I said earlier, I'll go to Saks out there, but not much else. It's one step above Cary Towne Center and Northgate Mall, perception-wise, for me.

Crabtree has always been a better shopping experince, though it's no longer cutting edge. Combined with North Hills though it favors comparably with the competition, with just the right amount of mass, class, inside, outside, national and local.

Streets at Southpoint accurately reflects how people like to shop and dine these days, but the omission of the parking deck is always going to be a liability until they build one.

This sums up my take as well, especially the part about one notch above CTC and Northgate. I believe Saks at CCV would bring it up to the cutting edge level you mentioned.

[Tayfromcarolina]

I've always thought that Crabtree should have tried to lure Neiman-Marcus. Especially after they came to Charlotte and being that Southpark out there and Crabtree Valley here are both thought of as the Upscale Malls in the State. Especially when Lord and Taylor vacated the area. Then we would have had Nordstrom, Neimans and Saks.

Ah well. Perhaps one day in the distant future.

[StevenRocks]

One reason Neiman Marcus chose Charlotte was the availability of an anchor space without a lot of complications. Federated Department Stores has an active lease on the old Lord & Taylor Crabtree space in herited from May Department Stores and is using it as a bargaining chip with mall management to force something into the space that won't take sales away from Macy's. In a situation like that, the Hudson Belk men's store is almost a stretch.

[Redman84]

One reason Neiman Marcus chose Charlotte was the availability of an anchor space without a lot of complications. Federated Department Stores has an active lease on the old Lord & Taylor Crabtree space in herited from May Department Stores and is using it as a bargaining chip with mall management to force something into the space that won't take sales away from Macy's. In a situation like that, the Hudson Belk men's store is almost a stretch.

Very well the case, but if they really wanted to keep sales at Macy's and not another store, they ought to make the Macy's at Crabtree more like a Macy's and not keep it like the Hecht's. I honestly have really yet to see any improvements to the store or the clothes they carry. Make it like a real Macy's and they'll have no problem drawing in and keeping shoppers.

[StevenRocks]

Very well the case, but if they really wanted to keep sales at Macy's and not another store, they ought to make the Macy's at Crabtree more like a Macy's and not keep it like the Hecht's. I honestly have really yet to see any improvements to the store or the clothes they carry. Make it like a real Macy's and they'll have no problem drawing in and keeping shoppers.

It's hard to say if that store will be remodeled anytime soon. Federated has its plate pretty full and physically, the store isn't in bad shape.

[Redman84]

What I meant by that is if you compare the Macy's flagship stores to the one at Crabtree there is no comparison of the two. I don't know all that much about retail or department stores, but I do buy clothes. I would have thought that with Macy's taking over Hecht's it would have brought in some more high-end clothes that are offered at a Macy's flagship store. If you've been in Belk at Crabtree recently, you probably have noticed they have started carrying more high-end merchandise, that before you would have to of gone to Nordstrom or Saks to buy in this area (that is, if you wanted to buy it from a department store). Just seemed like to me that all that really took place with the Hecht's/Macy's merge was just a name change.

[ScottCLT]

Just seemed like to me that all that really took place with the Hecht's/Macy's merge was just a name change.

The same thing goes for Macy's at SouthPark. I went in there last week and found nothing higher-end that a JC Penney or low-end Belk. At Crabtree and SouthPark, you would think the store would be further up the Macy's ladder than that!

[Redman84]

Exactly!